Was Eve wise or beguiled? and at which point?

[nimrod]

I often hear people saying that EVE was wise in her decision in the Garden. Here is my question:

1. Did she reason the pros and cons and make a good decision?

2. If so, was the good decision to partake of the fruit in the first instance? (obviously we know that they needed to partake so that they could populate the planet....but was she tricked into this (beguiled) or was it a conscious choice...weighing the pros and cons)

3. OR was she tricked in partaking of the fruit and her "good decision" was to get Adam to partake of the fruit, because she already had, and would be expelled, and he was commanded to be with her and multiply and replenish?

Clear as mud?

[lusciouschaos]

Eve saw the bigger picture. And in fact there are times when the rule is broken for the greater good. Think Abraham and Isaac. He didn't slay Isaac but he was fully willing to do as the Lord commanded. Eve was obedient to a higher law. Being the "mother of all living," she knew that no progression could take place as long as they stayed in the garden. A little like wanting your child to stay in kindergarten forever because they are so innocent.

I cannot wait for the day when her role is fully revealed and we can thank her for her sacrifice in bringing us to the earth.

[Justice]

Moses 4:

6 And Satan put it into the heart of the serpent, (for he had drawn away many after him,) and he sought also to beguile Eve, for he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world.

It's clear from what I've read that Adam wasn't deceived. With Eve, it's always been less clear.

I believe she was motivated to keep the first commandment, to multiply and replenish the earth. Either Satan told her that knowledge was contained in the fruit, or somehow she already knew it was.

Moses 5:

11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

She got what she wanted. She was able to keep the first commandment to have seed.

The truth is, I'm not sure if she was deceived. She claims she was beguiled, but that can mean many things other than deceived. Yet, it seems I remember hearing General Authorities say she was deceived. I'm just not certain exactly what about.

[Traveler]

I often hear people saying that EVE was wise in her decision in the Garden. Here is my question:

1. Did she reason the pros and cons and make a good decision?

2. If so, was the good decision to partake of the fruit in the first instance? (obviously we know that they needed to partake so that they could populate the planet....but was she tricked into this (beguiled) or was it a conscious choice...weighing the pros and cons)

3. OR was she tricked in partaking of the fruit and her "good decision" was to get Adam to partake of the fruit, because she already had, and would be expelled, and he was commanded to be with her and multiply and replenish?

Clear as mud?

Eve was beguiled. She was tricked into making the decision without Adam. Satan knew all along that Adam and Eve would at one point decide take the fruit - What Satan wanted to is cause a division between Adam and Eve. Many think that Satan played into G-d's plan but he added his twisted twist.

The Traveler

[Webster]

I don't know what she knew in the Garden of Eden.

I would suppose that she voluntarily made a conscientious choice with full knowledge to leave her paradise and enter into a fallen mortal sphere. But that may not have happened in Eden. I think it happened (as it may have with all of us) in the pre-mortal existence.

I think she and Adam made a choice in the pre-mortal realm, similar to the choice Jesus made, to sacrifice themselves and be an integral part of God's plan. I think the real choice to partake of the fruit came long before they were placed in Eden.

[Maxel]

I don't know about whether she was 'beguiled' or 'wise' in partaking of the fruit, but here's an intersting tidbit I picked up at the counselor's office yesterday.

Children are more motivated and more likely to obey rules set forth in a 'do-this' fashion as opposed to a 'do-not-do-this' fashion. I wonder what the significance is that Adam and Eve were told to 'replenish the earth' (a do-this commandment) and not to partake of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil (a do-not-do-this commandment).

My understanding has always been that the command 'replenish the earth' held more doctrinal 'weight' (if you will) than not partaking of the fruit. That is to say, it was more important that Adam and Eve multiply but the conflicting commandments set the pattern through which mankind could grow in immortality.

[foreverafter]

I believe that Eve was deceived to make the decision by herself & did not counsel with either Adam or Heavenly Father 1st. For surely her decision would affect Adam too, so it should have been agreed upon 1st & then approved by Heavenly Father.

And Adam was also deceived to make the decision to follow his wife without 1st consulting Heavenly Father, even though her explanation seemed like the right thing to do & probably was. But Heavenly Father should have been part of their decision.

Even so, modern Prophets have praised Eve for her wise & courageous decision to partake of the fruit & set the plan of Heavenly Father in motion. Adam was wise to support & follow his wife in that decision & her new role of Motherhood.

Edited March 5, 2009 by foreverafter

[tubaloth]

1. Did she reason the pros and cons and make a good decision?

She didn’t have the same understanding that we do.

The only Pro Eve knew was she would become more Like God and know good from Evil (and I guess have kids?)

The Con was she would die.

That’s not much of a list when you don’t know what Good or Evil is, what having children is, or what dying is.

2. If so, was the good decision to partake of the fruit in the first instance? (obviously we know that they needed to partake so that they could populate the planet....but was she tricked into this (beguiled) or was it a conscious choice...weighing the pros and cons)

Not sure. The one thing I have tried to figure out is if Adam and Eve could feel Love. Did Love exist in the Garden of Eden before the fall.

If there was any reason to partake of the fruit it was so she could become more like her Father in Heaven.

3. OR was she tricked in partaking of the fruit and her "good decision" was to get Adam to partake of the fruit, because she already had, and would be expelled, and he was commanded to be with her and multiply and replenish?

The decision was still Adam’s. The same choice process would also have to be for Adam. Did he love Eve and want to stay with her. Did he love God?

[Dr T]

I don't think (for some reason) that Eve "saw the big picture" at all. I think she was deceived and Adam was not. I think Adam put Eve above God there.

[Berean]

I think Latter-Day Saints are pretty unique in believing she transgressed but did not sin...hard for me to swallow at first too but I am glad we can procreate.

[Justice]

Everyone gets a big thank you for their comments in this thread. Very good comments. Even the smallest of comments here have helped me.

It makes sense that if Satan divided Adam and Eve that he would destroy man's agency.

I wonder if he just underestimated Adam's resolve to be with Eve, or his love for her?

Whatever the case, I'm thankful to Eve, and to Adam, for the choices they made.

Look at Eve's words and all that we gain because of their choice.

God clearly made provisions for Adam and Eve's choice. He had already planned and prepared a Savior, even before they made their choice.

That is the main difference between earth and the pre-mortal existence. There was no "safety net" in place in the pre-mortal existence for choosing against God's will. God never told us in the pre-mortal existence that we were free to choose, or He never "gave us our agency."

D&C 29:

36 And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the devil—for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency;

Moses 7: 32

32 The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency;

Without being "given" agency, or freedom to choose, some of His children chose against Him before He was able to prepare a way for their deliverance from that choice.

That's what this whole earth life with "time" is about... a time to prepare to meet God, a time to make our choice, repent, and return.

Alma 12, my brothers and sisters, Alma 12.

24 And we see that death comes upon mankind, yea, the death which has been spoken of by Amulek, which is the temporal death; nevertheless there was a space granted unto man in which he might repent; therefore this life became a probationary state; a time to prepare to meet God; a time to prepare for that endless state which has been spoken of by us, which is after the resurrection of the dead.

Edited March 5, 2009 by Justice

[Justice]

Satan knew first hand what would happen if Adam and Eve chose against God. He had already made that choice. He was flat out lying when he told Eve she would not surely die. Neither of them understood any thing about the physical death. Neither of them has witnessed it, or experienced it.

Adam and Eve died the day they ate the fruit. That scripture in Alama 12 affirms that "death comes upon mankind" as a result of the fall. That death was a spiritual death, symbolized by being kicked out of the Garden of Eden.

And, that death was prepared for by God, and we have proof of that because the Savior had already been chosen.

[hordak]

Is this bible based or unique LDS theology?

[Connie]

The below is from this: LDS.org - Ensign Article - “The Great Plan of Happinessâ€

To the first man and woman on earth, the Lord said, “Be fruitful, and multiply” (Moses 2:28; see also Gen. 1:28; Abr. 4:28). This commandment was first in sequence and first in importance. It was essential that God’s spirit children have mortal birth and an opportunity to progress toward eternal life. Consequently, all things related to procreation are prime targets for the adversary’s efforts to thwart the plan of God.

When Adam and Eve received the first commandment, they were in a transitional state, no longer in the spirit world but with physical bodies not yet subject to death and not yet capable of procreation. They could not fulfill the Father’s first commandment without transgressing the barrier between the bliss of the Garden of Eden and the terrible trials and wonderful opportunities of mortal life.

For reasons that have not been revealed, this transition, or “fall,” could not happen without a transgression—an exercise of moral agency amounting to a willful breaking of a law (see Moses 6:59). This would be a planned offense, a formality to serve an eternal purpose. The Prophet Lehi explained that “if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen” (2 Ne. 2:22), but would have remained in the same state in which he was created.

“And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin” (2 Ne. 2:23).

But the Fall was planned, Lehi concludes, because “all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things” (2 Ne. 2:24).

It was Eve who first transgressed the limits of Eden in order to initiate the conditions of mortality. Her act, whatever its nature, was formally a transgression but eternally a glorious necessity to open the doorway toward eternal life. Adam showed his wisdom by doing the same. And thus Eve and “Adam fell that men might be” (2 Ne. 2:25).

Some Christians condemn Eve for her act, concluding that she and her daughters are somehow flawed by it. Not the Latter-day Saints! Informed by revelation, we celebrate Eve’s act and honor her wisdom and courage in the great episode called the Fall (see Bruce R. McConkie, “Eve and the Fall,” Woman, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1979, pp. 67–68). Joseph Smith taught that it was not a “sin,” because God had decreed it (see The Words of Joseph Smith, ed. Andrew F. Ehat and Lyndon W. Cook, Provo, Utah: Religious Studies Center, Brigham Young University, 1980, p. 63). Brigham Young declared, “We should never blame Mother Eve, not the least” (in Journal of Discourses, 13:145). Elder Joseph Fielding Smith said: “I never speak of the part Eve took in this fall as a sin, nor do I accuse Adam of a sin. … This was a transgression of the law, but not a sin … for it was something that Adam and Eve had to do!” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols., Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954–56, 1:114–15).

This suggested contrast between a sin and a transgression reminds us of the careful wording in the second article of faith: “We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression” (emphasis added). It also echoes a familiar distinction in the law. Some acts, like murder, are crimes because they are inherently wrong. Other acts, like operating without a license, are crimes only because they are legally prohibited. Under these distinctions, the act that produced the Fall was not a sin—inherently wrong—but a transgression—wrong because it was formally prohibited. These words are not always used to denote something different, but this distinction seems meaningful in the circumstances of the Fall.

Modern revelation shows that our first parents understood the necessity of the Fall. Adam declared, “Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God” (Moses 5:10).

Note the different perspective and the special wisdom of Eve, who focused on the purpose and effect of the great plan of happiness: “Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient” (Moses 5:11). In his vision of the redemption of the dead, President Joseph F. Smith saw “the great and mighty ones” assembled to meet the Son of God, and among them was “our glorious Mother Eve” (D&C 138:38–39).

This is also good: LDS.org - Ensign Article - Adam’s Role in Bringing Us Mortality

[Webster]

That is the main difference between earth and the pre-mortal existence. There was no "safety net" in place in the pre-mortal existence for choosing against God's will. God never told us in the pre-mortal existence that we were free to choose, or He never "gave us our agency."

I have to wonder, based on what you've said, if you think Lucifer was able to thwart God's plan (in a sense) by putting a third of God's children outside of His ability to save them, since the rebellion occurred before there was a "safety net" in place?

[Just_A_Guy]

In 1 Timothy 2:13-14, Paul seems rather explicit that Eve was indeed deceived (whereas Adam was not).

But I'm open to arguments that I'm taking the statement out of context, or that Paul was just building on common (and erroneous) Jewish assumptions of the day.

[Maya]

I red somewhere that in a Jewish history or tale it says, that before God created Eve He had already created ... I think it was 2 women for Adam, but they would not take the fruit... so He created Eve. And she tok the fruit. Those 2 were left alone in the Eden. They would never die but thney would not have knowledge either. I just tought that was interesting.

[Justice]

I have to wonder, based on what you've said, if you think Lucifer was able to thwart God's plan (in a sense) by putting a third of God's children outside of His ability to save them, since the rebellion occurred before there was a "safety net" in place?

No, I never considered that. I tend to believe that Satan thought if he could bring more of God's children to follow him, he would be granted his design by majority, or by force since there was a "war in heaven."

I don't think he thought about earth life and safety nets, I think he thought he could win, because he thought his plan was better.

He sought the power from God to take man's agency from them and be a "king" over them so they would be subject to him and have to do what he says... which his purpose was to save them.

I have no idea what he thinks his purpose is now. But, I can't help but think that he still thinks he can win. It's like we give him power each time we choose him.

[nimrod]

Original Poster:

Personally, I think Eve was "beguiled" or "deceived" in the first instance of partaking of the fruit. Otherwise, the use of those terms would be meaningless. I think modern revelation clearly shows that Adam was wise in His decision to partake. We also know that Eve, in retro-spect saw the wisdom in their transgression.....but this was AFTER the transgression.

I only brought up this subject because I often hear people say that Eve made a wise decision. I think this statement is misleading. She made a necessary decision, which after the fact, she saw the wisdom of it. When Adam partook, he made a conscious, wise decision.

I am not trying to take anything away from Eve. I'm only seeking accuracy.

Thanks for the responses.

[Flyonthewall]

I red somewhere that in a Jewish history or tale it says, that before God created Eve He had already created ... I think it was 2 women for Adam, but they would not take the fruit... so He created Eve. And she tok the fruit. Those 2 were left alone in the Eden. They would never die but thney would not have knowledge either. I just tought that was interesting.

Not sure about 2 women before Eve, but according to some traditions, Lilith was Adam's first wife, and due to an argument, was rejected and Eve was created. Lilith then became some sort of a demon figure.

[aspenmgy]

I believe Adam made the bigger sacrafice. Eve was beguiled; Adam wasn't. Eve still made the right choice. I agree with what nimrod has said.

Satan tempted her to eat the fruit because he wanted to ruin God's plan, make Him "cease to be God", and take over as "God". Of course we know this is impossible. Satan thought he could pull it off.

Satan gave Eve the fruit, she gives it to Adam. Now they have both sinned. In reading the Book of Mormon we learn if Adam and Eve had then eaten of the Tree of Life they would have lived forever in their sins. The Plan of Salvation would have been frustrated. This is what Satan intended. Have them eat the fruit, then get them to eat fruit from the Tree of Life.

However, the various accounts of the Fall indicate that God didn't let this happen because he pwnz. Just my thoughts.

[Hemidakota]

Original Poster:

Personally, I think Eve was "beguiled" or "deceived" in the first instance of partaking of the fruit. Otherwise, the use of those terms would be meaningless. I think modern revelation clearly shows that Adam was wise in His decision to partake. We also know that Eve, in retro-spect saw the wisdom in their transgression.....but this was AFTER the transgression.

I only brought up this subject because I often hear people say that Eve made a wise decision. I think this statement is misleading. She made a necessary decision, which after the fact, she saw the wisdom of it. When Adam partook, he made a conscious, wise decision.

I am not trying to take anything away from Eve. I'm only seeking accuracy.

Thanks for the responses.

Totally agree Nimrod, when GOD questioned her after both of them partaken of the fruit and she confessed to the error. Adam, being obedience to the letter of the law, refused to partake of the fruit. Lucifer, knowing Adam would not partake, backup plan was to use Eve; probably knew of her flaw character of seeking further truths [impatience]. I am wonder why GOD did not send down guardian angels when HE saw and knew Lucifer would employ half-truths against Adam and Eve?

[Hemidakota]

However, the various accounts of the Fall indicate that God didn't let this happen because he pwnz. Just my thoughts.

I think that was due to Lucifer was already seducing other worlds prior to this earth.

[Flyonthewall]

Totally agree Nimrod, when GOD questioned her after both of them partaken of the fruit and she confessed to the error. Adam, being obedience to the letter of the law, refused to partake of the fruit. Lucifer, knowing Adam would not partake, backup plan was to use Eve; probably knew of her flaw character of seeking further truths [impatience]. I am wonder why GOD did not send down guardian angels when HE saw and knew Lucifer would employ half-truths against Adam and Eve?

And of course the famous dialogue with God...Eve fessed up, but Adam tried to put it back on God: "And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat"...lol(jk). It just sounded that way!

[Hemidakota]

It seems that way when you read it. All three of them blamed others for their transgression. I was very curious on Lucifer and how GOD responded.