1 Nephi Ch. 3

[Jenda]

OK, the Laban story starts in this chapter. When I think about this story, I have a bit of a hard time with it, so I tend not to think about it. I understand the reasoning, but I just have a hard time with God commanding someone to kill someone else. (I guess that is technically in Chapter 4 (but in our BoM, it is all in the same chapter. )(In fact, all of this is still in chapter 1 in our BoM.)

Anyway, one of the verses that I like in this chapter is verse 7. .........For I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men save He shall prepare a way for them, that they may accomplish the thing which He commandeth them.

That, to me, says that God knows our limitations and weaknesses, and always works within that frame of matter. He never would ask us to do anything that we are not capable of doing. That is comforting to me, somehow. It also gives me faith. If God asks me to do something that seems hard or near impossible, it means that he knows I can accomplish it.

[AFDaw]

Again, I have that same part highlighted :)

This might be stretching it a bit, but bear with me.

I'm not sure if you would define "Endure to the End" as a commandment or not, but for arguements sake, say it is. That would mean that we will not be given trials that we can not bear. I know it's been mentioned on these boards before, but bad things happen to EVERYONE. Good, bad, righetous, evil...doesn't matter. Good and bad things happen to all. And yes, I know that trials can test someone's faith, but I don't believe anything can happen that can't be overcome.

[Guest Starsky]

Okay....when it comes to the Lord commanding someone to kill....it is because He is established upon principles...not applications.

When the principle of giving everyone the chance to know the gospel in it's fullness and to live according to the plan of salvation and knowledge of all of this being contingent upon the obtaining these records and escaping safely... Laban being killed was just one of the things that needed to be accomplished here.

The other one was...like with Paul and the 'eating of unclean meat' ....would Nephi OBEY God no matter what?

Would he put God's command to kill above the written 'law' of thou shalt not kill?

He was being tested...because of all the garbage he was about to endure, he needed to be completely submissive to the Lord, trusting the Lord above everything else.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Peace@Feb 7 2004, 11:25 AM

Okay....when it comes to the Lord commanding someone to kill....it is because He is established upon principles...not applications.

When the principle of giving everyone the chance to know the gospel in it's fullness and to live according to the plan of salvation and knowledge of all of this being contingent upon the obtaining these records and escaping safely... Laban being killed was just one of the things that needed to be accomplished here.

The other one was...like with Paul and the 'eating of unclean meat' ....would Nephi OBEY God no matter what?

Would he put God's command to kill above the written 'law' of thou shalt not kill?

He was being tested...because of all the garbage he was about to endure, he needed to be completely submissive to the Lord, trusting the Lord above everything else.

Actually it was Peter, not Paul.

And that was a vision, Peter wasn't actually asked to eat the unclean meat. Like I said, I understand the greater good that comes from this commandment, but it still leaves me wondering, What if Hitler claimed the same thing? That is where it starts getting troublesome to me. If God commands one person to do it, how do we know He hasn't commanded others to do it? Ones that we believe to be monsters (like Hitler)?

[Guest Starsky]

Actually it was Peter, not Paul. 

I'm sorry....LOL I do that with names that begin the same...it is a mental condition I guess. LOL'

Thanks!

[Guest Starsky]

And that was a vision, Peter wasn't actually asked to eat the unclean meat.

Yet it was the principle of obedience in the face of going against an established teaching of God at the time.

Like I said, I understand the greater good that comes from this commandment, but it still leaves me wondering, What if Hitler claimed the same thing?

It is a matter of living by the Spirit to know whether it is of God or Satan. Do we believe a man like Hitler? Does his fruits show that it was from God or Satan? Does Nephi's works show they were from God or Satan?

That is where it starts getting troublesome to me.

This is where you need to have confidence in the Lord that He will give you answers to your inquiries as to what is from Him and what is from Satan. Alma taught that you might know by the goodness produced, if what he was teaching was good or evil. Moroni told us that we might know if it is from God if it was :

Moro. 10: 6

6 And whatsoever thing is good is just and true; wherefore, nothing that is good denieth the Christ, but acknowledgeth that he is.

If God commands one person to do it, how do we know He hasn't commanded others to do it? Ones that we believe to be monsters (like Hitler)?

Ask yourself the question: Does it accomplish the work of the Lord unto our salvation? Does it bring people to Christ? Does it benefit mankind as a whole in the big picture?

[Behunin]

Originally posted by Peace@Feb 7 2004, 12:25 PM

Okay....when it comes to the Lord commanding someone to kill....it is because He is established upon principles...not applications.

When the principle of giving everyone the chance to know the gospel in it's fullness and to live according to the plan of salvation and knowledge of all of this being contingent upon the obtaining these records and escaping safely... Laban being killed was just one of the things that needed to be accomplished here.

The other one was...like with Paul and the 'eating of unclean meat' ....would Nephi OBEY God no matter what?

Would he put God's command to kill above the written 'law' of thou shalt not kill?

He was being tested...because of all the garbage he was about to endure, he needed to be completely submissive to the Lord, trusting the Lord above everything else.

I think we need to look at the scriptures apart from the literal aspect. The natural man only sees and understands the literal, what he can see.

Death, in my understanding of the scriptures, is rarely meant only literally. There is spiritual death such as: "For this my son was dead, and his alive again; he was lost, and is found." Luke 15:23. The son was not literally dead.

It is interesting that Laban lost his head with a sword. A sword is symbolic of truth; remember the flaming sword that "turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life." Genesis 3:24.

Leaving Jerusalem is symbolic of leaving the great and spacious building. Leaving the great and spacious building means leaving at least part of the natural man behind. This part is symbolized by Laban's head being cut off. Man cannot progress spiritually unless the natural man is gradually put off.

Now for a confession: I enlisted the help of my husband for this post. I started it and then he filled in where I lacked. He is so good to me . So you all got an excerpt from his book Esoteric Book of Mormon.

[Guest Starsky]

So cool Behunin! Thanks for sharing bro & sis behunin!

[serapha]

Hi there!

"bump" and questions or comments.

3 For behold, Laban hath the record of the Jews and also a genealogy of my forefathers, and they are engraven upon plates of brass.

4 Wherefore, the Lord hath commanded me that thou and thy brothers should go unto the house of Laban, and seek the records, and bring them down hither into the wilderness.

Was it not against the rulings of the Jewish priesthood that all geneologies would be destroyed? Laban states in verse 13 that Laman is a robber, yet he would never be able to take such a claim before the Sanhedrin as he would found in error himself for having held the ancestry records in his home.

"All of the literature current among the masses was carefully scanned and revised. The ethical code was reënforced, and wherever necessary purged of objectionable matter. This censorship was carried to such an extent that it was attempted to reject even Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and Ezekiel as undesirable; and it was only with great difficulty that those in authority were prevailed upon to let them remain. The records of ancestry, however, tracing the descent of every existing family, which were the pride of the people, as well as all works treating of medical science and the art of healing, were buried and hidden beyond recovery." http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/t01/t0138.htm

7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.

1. Gospel Principles, page 24, "By keeping God's commandments, we prepare for eternal life and exaltation.

Could someone define "eternal life" and "exaltation"? I am aware of the "works" with "faith" teachings of the CoJCoLDS's, but a question...

2. If one is saved by faith, and does no works, yet professes to be a member of the CoJCoLDS's, what happens to them, what is their eternal reward?

3. "Sometimes we do not know the reason for a particular commandment. However, we show our faith an trust in God when we obey without knowing why"

When is it a time for accepting in faith without question, or is it always just total acceptance without question?

27 And it came to pass that we fled into the wilderness, and the servants of Laban did not overtake us, and we hid ourselves in the cavity of a rock.

There are interesting commentary points at this link concerning a cave found in the desert which some attribute the to place where Nephi and his brothers could have stayed. Paleography dates the inscription to the correct time for the bom, but the first obvious error is in the use of the word "mountain" instead of "border" in the inscription.

http://frontpage2000.nmia.com/~nahualli/LD...phi/1Nephi3.htm

[AFDaw]

Originally posted by serapha@Mar 30 2004, 05:46 AM

Hi there!

"bump"  and questions or comments.

3 For behold, Laban hath the record of the Jews and also a genealogy of my forefathers, and they are engraven upon plates of brass.

4 Wherefore, the Lord hath commanded me that thou and thy brothers should go unto the house of Laban, and seek the records, and bring them down hither into the wilderness.

Was it not against the rulings of the Jewish priesthood that all geneologies would be destroyed? Laban states in verse 13 that Laman is a robber, yet he would never be able to take such a claim before the Sanhedrin as he would found in error

"All of the literature current among the masses was carefully scanned and revised. The ethical code was reënforced, and wherever necessary purged of objectionable matter. This censorship was carried to such an extent that it was attempted to reject even Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and Ezekiel as undesirable; and it was only with great difficulty that those in authority were prevailed upon to let them remain. The records of ancestry, however, tracing the descent of every existing family, which were the pride of the people, as well as all works treating of medical science and the art of healing, were buried and hidden beyond recovery." http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/t01/t0138.htm

The plates weren't just geneologies. It was letters, prophecies, history of the language...it was a bunch of things.

Laban calls Laman a robber, only because he believes Laman's intent is to steal the plates.

7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.

1. Gospel Principles, page 24, "By keeping God's commandments, we prepare for eternal life and exaltation.

Could someone define "eternal life" and "exaltation"? I am aware of the "works" with "faith" teachings of the CoJCoLDS's, but a question...

2. If one is saved by faith, and does no works, yet professes to be a member of the CoJCoLDS's, what happens to them, what is their eternal reward? d

3. "Sometimes we do not know the reason for a particular commandment. However, we show our faith an trust in God when we obey without knowing why"

When is it a time for accepting in faith without question, or is it always just total acceptance without question?

1. Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life God lives.

2. Then they do not receive the highest degree of Glory that is available, that being the Celestial Kingdom.

3. It's not accepting it without question, it's accepting it regardless. The idea of food storage is odd to some, and some have asked why we need it and aren't happy with the answers. Does that mean they shouldn't do it? It's up to them. Some do it regardless of whether or not they understand why they were told to, some do it and will never need it, some do it and have used it due to financial problems after a lay off, or after a natural disaster. The basic principles of the Gospel aren't accepted on Blind Faith in my opinion. You need a real testimony of the Gospel. It's the more complex higher principles that I think are more accepted on Blind Faith.

27 And it came to pass that we fled into the wilderness, and the servants of Laban did not overtake us, and we hid ourselves in the cavity of a rock.

There are interesting commentary points at this link concerning a cave found in the desert which some attribute the to place where Nephi and his brothers could have stayed. Paleography dates the inscription to the correct time for the bom, but the first obvious error is in the use of the word "mountain" instead of "border" in the inscription.

http://frontpage2000.nmia.com/~nahualli/LD...phi/1Nephi3.htm

and?

[serapha]

QUOTE (serapha @ Mar 30 2004, 05:46 AM)

Hi there!

"bump"  and questions or comments.

QUOTE 

3 For behold, Laban hath the record of the Jews and also a genealogy of my forefathers, and they are engraven upon plates of brass.

4 Wherefore, the Lord hath commanded me that thou and thy brothers should go unto the house of Laban, and seek the records, and bring them down hither into the wilderness.

Was it not against the rulings of the Jewish priesthood that all geneologies would be destroyed? Laban states in verse 13 that Laman is a robber, yet he would never be able to take such a claim before the Sanhedrin as he would found in error

"All of the literature current among the masses was carefully scanned and revised. The ethical code was reënforced, and wherever necessary purged of objectionable matter. This censorship was carried to such an extent that it was attempted to reject even Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and Ezekiel as undesirable; and it was only with great difficulty that those in authority were prevailed upon to let them remain. The records of ancestry, however, tracing the descent of every existing family, which were the pride of the people, as well as all works treating of medical science and the art of healing, were buried and hidden beyond recovery." http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/t01/t0138.htm

The plates weren't just geneologies. It was letters, prophecies, history of the language...it was a bunch of things.

Is there a listing elsewhere in the bom what identifies all the information on the plates?

Laban calls Laman a robber, only because he believes Laman's intent is to steal the plates.

QUOTE 

QUOTE 

7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.

1. Gospel Principles, page 24, "By keeping God's commandments, we prepare for eternal life and exaltation.

Could someone define "eternal life" and "exaltation"? I am aware of the "works" with "faith" teachings of the CoJCoLDS's, but a question...

2. If one is saved by faith, and does no works, yet professes to be a member of the CoJCoLDS's, what happens to them, what is their eternal reward? d

3. "Sometimes we do not know the reason for a particular commandment. However, we show our faith an trust in God when we obey without knowing why"

When is it a time for accepting in faith without question, or is it always just total acceptance without question? 

1. Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life God lives.

Did I miss something ?  "we prepare for eternal life and exaltation"

2. Then they do not receive the highest degree of Glory that is available, that being the Celestial Kingdom.

3. It's not accepting it without question, it's accepting it regardless. The idea of food storage is odd to some, and some have asked why we need it and aren't happy with the answers. Does that mean they shouldn't do it? It's up to them. Some do it regardless of whether or not they understand why they were told to, some do it and will never need it, some do it and have used it due to financial problems after a lay off, or after a natural disaster. The basic principles of the Gospel aren't accepted on Blind Faith in my opinion. You need a real testimony of the Gospel. It's the more complex higher principles that I think are more accepted on Blind Faith.

QUOTE 

QUOTE 

27 And it came to pass that we fled into the wilderness, and the servants of Laban did not overtake us, and we hid ourselves in the cavity of a rock.

There are interesting commentary points at this link concerning a cave found in the desert which some attribute the to place where Nephi and his brothers could have stayed. Paleography dates the inscription to the correct time for the bom, but the first obvious error is in the use of the word "mountain" instead of "border" in the inscription.

http://frontpage2000.nmia.com/~nahualli/LD...phi/1Nephi3.htm

and?

Just notes on previously published material.

~serapha~

[AFDaw]

Is there another reference to the brass plates in the bom where it itemizes that?

Besides 1 Nephi 3:3 "For behold, Laban hath the record of the Jews and also a genealogy of my forefathers, and they are engraven upon plates of brass."

1 Nephi 4:16 "And I also knew that the law was engraven upon the plates of brass."

Did I miss something ?  "we prepare for eternal life and exaltation"

Eternal life is living forever, not everyone who receives eternal life will receive exaltation. Exaltation is the eternal progression after death in which we can become like our Father in Heaven. He is an exalted being, and we can become like him.

[serapha]

Is there another reference to the brass plates in the bom where it itemizes that?

Besides 1 Nephi 3:3 "For behold, Laban hath the record of the Jews and also a genealogy of my forefathers, and they are engraven upon plates of brass."

1 Nephi 4:16 "And I also knew that the law was engraven upon the plates of brass."

<span style='color:red'>Another question please.... When it says "law" would that mean just the first five books of the Bible (the Torah) or the total of the canonized Hebrew "Scriptures" which were assembled about that time? Or as another member told me a few days ago, that the Torah was the totality of the Old Testament, and was not limited to the first five books of the Bible (I believe that was "Peace" that said that, though I may be mistaken. )

Did I miss something ?  "we prepare for eternal life and exaltation"

Eternal life is living forever, not everyone who receives eternal life will receive exaltation. Exaltation is the eternal progression after death in which we can become like our Father in Heaven. He is an exalted being, and we can become like him.

When one says eternal life is exaltation, then one is making the statement that they will be in one of the higher heavens? And, not just the lowest level of heaven which is eternal life without exaltation?

Just curious.

~serapha~

[Guest Starsky]

Eternal...refers to Christ's actions toward us.....for righteousness and evil. There is eternal punishment as well as Eternal life.

But when used distinctly in addition to imortality....it is exaltation.

Do you understand?

i.e.

Moses 1: 39

39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

[AFDaw]

Another question please.... When it says "law" would that mean just the first five books of the Bible (the Torah) or the total of the canonized Hebrew "Scriptures" which were assembled about that time? Or as another member told me a few days ago, that the Torah was the totality of the Old Testament, and was not limited to the first five books of the Bible (I believe that was "Peace" that said that, though I may be mistaken. )

The law is referring to the Law of Moses.

[serapha]

Eternal...refers to Christ's actions toward us.....for righteousness and evil. There is eternal punishment as well as Eternal life.

But when used distinctly in addition to imortality....it is exaltation.

Do you understand?

i.e.

Moses 1: 39

39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

Hi!

There are two meanings. The first meaning exaltation is eternal life. But when eternal life is understood, then exaltation is the secondary meaning of being as/like god?

~serapha~

[serapha]

Another question please.... When it says "law" would that mean just the first five books of the Bible (the Torah) or the total of the canonized Hebrew "Scriptures" which were assembled about that time? Or as another member told me a few days ago, that the Torah was the totality of the Old Testament, and was not limited to the first five books of the Bible (I believe that was "Peace" that said that, though I may be mistaken. )

The law is referring to the Law of Moses.

So the brass plates held all the geneologies, the Torah, letters, prophecies, and a history of the language.

Anything else?

~serapha~

[AFDaw]

There's a bunch of information on it in the Gospel Principles, CH 47.

[Jenda]

"All of the literature current among the masses was carefully scanned and revised. The ethical code was reënforced, and wherever necessary purged of objectionable matter. This censorship was carried to such an extent that it was attempted to reject even Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and Ezekiel as undesirable; and it was only with great difficulty that those in authority were prevailed upon to let them remain. The records of ancestry, however, tracing the descent of every existing family, which were the pride of the people, as well as all works treating of medical science and the art of healing, were buried and hidden beyond recovery." http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/t01/t0138.htm

What is the time period this reference refers to. It is not stated in the text you provided.

[Jenda]

The plates weren't just geneologies. It was letters, prophecies, history of the language...it was a bunch of things.

AFDaw, where do you get the information that the plates contained letters and a history of the language?

The plates contained the geneologies of the fathers, the writings of Isaiah (among others), and the law. A history of the language wouldn't be needed, just having the plates accomplished that goal. It is having the written word that keeps the language pure. It is because the Nephites took the record that the Mulekites didn't have it, and their language became impure to the point where they were not able to understand the Nephites (and vice versa) when they found each other a couple hundred years later.

[broadway]

Laban wasn't exactly a good man. He had killed and robbed many men to gain the power he had. There is a law about taking a man's life...we all know what that law is.

God may have chosen Nephi to take Laban's life as a payment for all the lives that Laban had taken, while also providing a way that Nephi could take the brass plates.

broadway

[AFDaw]

Originally posted by Jenda@Mar 31 2004, 05:51 AM

The plates weren't just geneologies. It was letters, prophecies, history of the language...it was a bunch of things.

AFDaw, where do you get the information that the plates contained letters and a history of the language?

The plates contained the geneologies of the fathers, the writings of Isaiah (among others), and the law. A history of the language wouldn't be needed, just having the plates accomplished that goal. It is having the written word that keeps the language pure. It is because the Nephites took the record that the Mulekites didn't have it, and their language became impure to the point where they were not able to understand the Nephites (and vice versa) when they found each other a couple hundred years later.

Seminary manual :)

[Jenda]

Originally posted by AFDaw+Mar 31 2004, 08:58 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (AFDaw @ Mar 31 2004, 08:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Mar 31 2004, 05:51 AM

The plates weren't just geneologies. It was letters, prophecies, history of the language...it was a bunch of things.

AFDaw, where do you get the information that the plates contained letters and a history of the language?

The plates contained the geneologies of the fathers, the writings of Isaiah (among others), and the law.  A history of the language wouldn't be needed, just having the plates accomplished that goal.  It is having the written word that keeps the language pure.  It is because the Nephites took the record that the Mulekites didn't have it, and their language became impure to the point where they were not able to understand the Nephites (and vice versa) when they found each other a couple hundred years later.

Seminary manual :)

Is there a place where that is online? There is no way that the contents of the plates were known except as what was stated in the BoM by the people using them. And all it states there is that the plates held the geneologies of the fathers, the writings of some of the prophets and the law.

Just was wondering where they came up with the idea that there were letters and a history of the language in the plates.

[AFDaw]

The history of the language is probably as you say...just simply by having the plates they have the history. As for the letters, you say yourself that it contained the writings of some of the prophets. That included letters that prophets wrote.

[serapha]

"All of the literature current among the masses was carefully scanned and revised. The ethical code was reënforced, and wherever necessary purged of objectionable matter. This censorship was carried to such an extent that it was attempted to reject even Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and Ezekiel as undesirable; and it was only with great difficulty that those in authority were prevailed upon to let them remain. The records of ancestry, however, tracing the descent of every existing family, which were the pride of the people, as well as all works treating of medical science and the art of healing, were buried and hidden beyond recovery." http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/t01/t0138.htm

What is the time period this reference refers to. It is not stated in the text you provided.

"Most of the Mishnayoth date from a very early period, and originated with the students of the Jewish academies which existed since the days of Jehoshaphat, King of Judah [iI Chron. xvii. 9]"

.http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/t01/t0106.htm

~serapha~