A little disappointed...

[Jamie123]

I'm a little disappointed to see that the thread on the "Bible vs. Book of Mormon" video has been deleted. I understand that this isn't the place for posting anti-Mormon material, but I was looking forward to seeing a reasoned LDS response to the claims made in the video.

I'm sure there are answers out there. If it were so obvious that the LDS religion was false, it would have ceased to exist long ago.

P.S. In case you're wondering, I was not the original poster of that thread.

P.P.S. Having thought about it a little more, I think the moderator probably was justified in deleting the thread. Rather than posting a link to the video (which does contain anti-Mormon rhetoric), the the OP should probably have summarized the more objective parts of its argument and called for opinions.)

Edited March 12, 2009 by Jamie123

[FunkyTown]

I understand your disappointment. The problem is that the Bible vs the Book of Mormon video is pervasive on YouTube. Everything it claims is answered by FAIR.

So let me state beyond a shadow of a doubt what the whole thread would have been:

Anti: The Bible says "Blah" but the Book of MORMON says "Blah"

LDS 1: That's because of (Insert response here).

LDS 2: Here's my take on it.

LDS 3: You're forgetting that (Insert really terrible argument that really doesn't address anything the Anti said)

Anti: (Insert argument tearing apart the really terrible response while totally ignoring the reasoned responses)

LDS 1: What's your response to what myself and LDS 2 said?

LDS 2: We should probably be more reasonable about this. Do you think (Insert thought provoking counterargument by LDS 2)

LDS 3: (Insert random arguments that have no basis in reason that make me slightly dumber every time I read it)

Anti: (Insert another response tearing apart LDS 3's response).

The problem is that those who come to debate know that a vast chorus of people will argue against them. Of those, there will be those who never studied logical thought and can't come up with logical counterarguments to what they've presented. They then go on to argue -solely- against the person they can -definitely- beat, ignoring those they can't.

You think I'm exaggerating, but I highly recommend using the search function to look up previous arguments. It got to the point I was so sick and tired of the tactic that I just started putting in random pictures.

[Gwen]

the videos were in violation of site rules. yes i watched it (well 30 min of it, the thing is an hour long, i watched enough, i have kids to tend to) to make sure and did not just delete on face value. i will admit that they did a very cleaver job of making their report look creditable.

a caveat for those looking at such videos and wanting to know if they are creditable or not. who are their experts. all the "lds archeologists" if you listened to them talk were actually ex-lds archeologists.

the methodology of the video creators.....they approached believers in the bible who were also archeologists and said "is there physical proof" and they said.... of course "yes!" then they went to ppl who do not believe in the book of mormon and said "is there proof" and of course they said "no!"................ shocking results.

what if you did the same in reverse. went to archeologists that don't believe in the bible and ask "is there physical proof"...... they will say "no!" and can point to evidence against it. go to an archeologist who believes in the book of mormon and ask the same question... they will say "yes there is evidence!" and start explaining it.

the biggest thing to remember is neither the bible or book of mormon is meant to be a historical text. they are not history books nor has anyone ever claimed them to be. they are religious texts. as with all texts that describe life there will be some history contained in it but it's purpose is not to withstand an examination on those facts alone. if you read my personal journal or anyone's for that matter you will find historical inaccuracies.... and i don't care, i wasn't writing a history book, i was writing my life from my perspective at that time. if you want to know if the book of mormon or bible are true then read, pray, ask, standard drill. if you are interested in the archeology you can do a search at deseret book and find many books that talk about that very subject from ppl that actually believe the book of mormon.

Edited March 12, 2009 by Gwen

[hordak]

I'm a little disappointed to see that the thread on the "Bible vs. Book of Mormon" video has been deleted. I understand that this isn't the place for posting anti-Mormon material, but I was looking forward to seeing a reasoned LDS response to the claims made in the video.

I'm sure there are answers out there. If it were so obvious that the LDS religion was false, it would have ceased to exist long ago.

(P.S. In case you're wondering, I was not the original poster of that thread.)

I hear this idea tossed out by mainstream Christians allot. That because the bible history is found it is more valid then the BoM. I disagree. The way I understand it most of the western worlds archaeology taking place in the middle east was influence by Christians looking specifically for Biblical sites. This isn't true of American Archeology.

Plus knowing a place exist doesn't really mean the corresponding story is more accurate. We know where Troy and Ithaca are. That doesn't make the Odyssey more believable then Beowulf.

I don't believe physical evidence can support religion anymore then spiritual evidence can support science.

[pam]

Gwen gave a good answer. Bottom line...read the rules of the site.

1. Do not post, upload, or otherwise submit anything to the site that is derogatory towards The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, its teachers, or its leaders. Anti-LDS Propaganda will not be tolerated anywhere.

Also in light of the fact that we had another poster sending this same link to numerous investigators via pm on the site...telling them to look for other answers.

[Jamie123]

I hear this idea tossed out by mainstream Christians allot. That because the bible history is found it is more valid then the BoM. I disagree. The way I understand it most of the western worlds archaeology taking place in the middle east was influence by Christians looking specifically for Biblical sites. This isn't true of American Archeology.

Plus knowing a place exist doesn't really mean the corresponding story is more accurate. We know where Troy and Ithaca are. That doesn't make the Odyssey more believable then Beowulf.

I don't believe physical evidence can support religion anymore then spiritual evidence can support science.

I think my main problem is the assumption that it ALL necessarily took place in Central America, and that's the only place you would ever find archeological remains. (America is a pretty enormous land mass!) It also assumes that the shape of the lands was the same in 600BC as it is now (though of course I'm no expert on geology).

[Gwen]

some archeologists are making the assumption that god does not have the power to completely destroy a ppl, or keep others from finding evidence of them till he is ready, on his chosen timeline. which i find rather amusing actually. an archeologist that believes in god, that he could create the earth, divide seas, etc. but can't completely remove (or hide) a ppl so that no evidence remains.....

[Just_A_Guy]

So let me state beyond a shadow of a doubt what the whole thread would have been:

Anti: The Bible says "Blah" but the Book of MORMON says "Blah"

LDS 1: That's because of (Insert response here).

LDS 2: Here's my take on it.

LDS 3: You're forgetting that (Insert really terrible argument that really doesn't address anything the Anti said)

Anti: (Insert argument tearing apart the really terrible response while totally ignoring the reasoned responses)

LDS 1: What's your response to what myself and LDS 2 said?

LDS 2: We should probably be more reasonable about this. Do you think (Insert thought provoking counterargument by LDS 2)

LDS 3: (Insert random arguments that have no basis in reason that make me slightly dumber every time I read it)

Anti: (Insert another response tearing apart LDS 3's response).

I hereby submit my request to audition for the role of LDS 3.

[beefche]

I hereby submit my request to audition for the role of LDS 3.

You know Pale will ask for the submission fee....

[Maxel]

I hereby submit my request to audition for the role of LDS 3.

ROFL. Where's the laugh button when you need it?

As for the video Bible vs. the Book of Mormon, it's been reviewed twice in the FARMS journal- once by David Bokovoy and once by Brant Gardener.

Edited March 12, 2009 by Maxel

[Madriglace]

I think my main problem is the assumption that it ALL necessarily took place in Central America, and that's the only place you would ever find archeological remains. (America is a pretty enormous land mass!) It also assumes that the shape of the lands was the same in 600BC as it is now (though of course I'm no expert on geology).

Where is it assumed that it all took place in Central America? I love to travel .. my passport burns a hole in my pocket. Peru is one of my all time favorite places .. the ruins there are amazing. The civilization covered the entire North and South American continents.

If it only happened in Central America what was Moroni doing up in the New York region? Also a personal speculation of mine ... have you seen the clifs dwellings in the southwest US? If you don't know they are there you can't see them .. looks like people running and hiding to me.

[livy111us]

Here is a video rebuttal to that anti-Mormon video:

Introduction:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPlCue-rmFY...;watch_response

Coins and The Book of Mormon:

Metals and The Book of Mormon:

Grains and The Book of Mormon:

Horses, Elephants and chariots in The Book of Mormon:

Book of Mormon geography (Old World):

Book of Mormon geography (New World):

Origins of the Native Americans:

Book of Mormon and Temples:

Hebrew poetry in The Book of Mormon:

Reformed Egyptian:

Archaeology and the Bible:

Scholars response to Bible vs The Book of Mormon:

Testimonies of the scholars:

Silk, Book of Mormon archaeology and the credits:

[livy111us]

Where is it assumed that it all took place in Central America? I love to travel .. my passport burns a hole in my pocket. Peru is one of my all time favorite places .. the ruins there are amazing. The civilization covered the entire North and South American continents.

If it only happened in Central America what was Moroni doing up in the New York region? Also a personal speculation of mine ... have you seen the clifs dwellings in the southwest US? If you don't know they are there you can't see them .. looks like people running and hiding to me.

The general concensus is that it happened in Central America, and the most evidence is in Central America. While it is not revelation, Joseph Smith, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff and many more leaders taught that it happened in Mesoamerica as well.

How did the plates get up to NY?

From the Fairwiki

Book of Mormon geography/New World/Limited Geography Theory/Plates to New York - FAIRMormon

• The final battles of the Nephites took place in the land of Cumorah. Mormon tells us that he "hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni" (Morm. 6:6).
• The last of the Nephite people were wiped out about A.D. 385 (Morm. 6:5). Only Moroni remained to finish his father's record.
• Moroni wandered "whithersoever [he could] for the safety of [his] own life" to avoid being captured and killed by the Lamanites (Moro. 1:3).

At the end of his record Moroni tells us that "more than four hundred and twenty years have passed away since the sign was given of the coming of Christ" (Moro. 10:1). This means that Moroni wandered for 36 years after the destruction of his people (421 – 385 = 36). This was more than enough time for him to travel a wandering course by foot from Mesoamerica to New England. And it makes sense that he would travel far, as he wanted to get as far as possible from the Lamanites.

Years ago, John Sorenson noted that such distances pose no difficulty whatever:

Would Moroni have been able to survive a trip of several thousand miles through strange peoples and lands, if he did transport the record? Such a journey would be no more surprising than the trip by Lehi's party over land and by sea halfway around the globe. As a matter of fact, we do have a striking case of a trip much like the one Moroni may have made. In the mid-sixteenth century, David Ingram, a shipwrecked English sailor, walked in 11 months through completely strange Indian territory from Tampico, Mexico, to the St. John River, at the present border between Maine and Canada. His remarkable journey would have been about the same distance as Moroni's and over essentially the same route. So Moroni's getting the plates to New York even under his own power [in 36 years] seems feasible

[Justice]

I was going to respond to him about his claim in getting a no answer.

He didn't get a no answer.

When you receive answers to prayers, there aren't any no answers.

There are 2 likely answers, and 1 rare answer.

1) affirmation

2) no answer

3) rarely we have a stupor of thought.

I have always been intrigued by how easy it is to tell those who are not honestly praying, or lying. They can give a no answer themselves, or satan can give them one. But, God does not give no answers... at least from my experience and study.

[Jamie123]

Where is it assumed that it all took place in Central America? I love to travel .. my passport burns a hole in my pocket. Peru is one of my all time favorite places .. the ruins there are amazing. The civilization covered the entire North and South American continents.

If it only happened in Central America what was Moroni doing up in the New York region? Also a personal speculation of mine ... have you seen the clifs dwellings in the southwest US? If you don't know they are there you can't see them .. looks like people running and hiding to me.

I was referring to the assumptions made in the video, not to assumptions made by Mormons (though I've seen several (unofficial) maps on the Internet placing the Nephite and Lamanite kingdoms in Central America).

[Jamie123]

I was going to respond to him about his claim in getting a no answer.

He didn't get a no answer.

When you receive answers to prayers, there aren't any no answers.

There are 2 likely answers, and 1 rare answer.

1) affirmation

2) no answer

3) rarely we have a stupor of thought.

I have always been intrigued by how easy it is to tell those who are not honestly praying, or lying. They can give a no answer themselves, or satan can give them one. But, God does not give no answers... at least from my experience and study.

You were going to respond to who? Are you sure you posted this message in the right thread?

P.S. Maybe you're confusing me with MichaelJ.

Edited March 13, 2009 by Jamie123