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bodhigirlsmiles

obvious(?) epiphany about christ

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what i am about to say will no doubt sound naive and not a little stupid (on my part), but i would really like to hear your opinion if you care to share.

yesterday i was flipping through the channels and i came across a television preacher (it was joel osteen, not that that makes any difference to the topic at hand) who said something that i've been thinking about ever since.

he said that jesus christ died for all. again, you may think me silly, but this was a kind of revelation to me. is this something that is generally agreed upon by mormons (or other christians, for that matter)? christ died for all, regardless of whether they are mormons, jews, hindus, atheists, buddhists??

i guess i always thought that jesus died for those who believed in him....those who were his followers. is this not the case??

don't laugh, i really am curious to know....

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what i am about to say will no doubt sound naive and not a little stupid (on my part), but i would really like to hear your opinion if you care to share.

yesterday i was flipping through the channels and i came across a television preacher (it was joel osteen, not that that makes any difference to the topic at hand) who said something that i've been thinking about ever since.

he said that jesus christ died for all. again, you may think me silly, but this was a kind of revelation to me. is this something that is generally agreed upon by mormons (or other christians, for that matter)? christ died for all, regardless of whether they are mormons, jews, hindus, atheists, buddhists??

i guess i always thought that jesus died for those who believed in him....those who were his followers. is this not the case??

don't laugh, i really am curious to know....

Yes, Jesus Christ died for ALL of us. Now, whether WE accept His sacrifice and view Him as Savior and follow His commandments is a different story.

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christ died for all, regardless of whether they are mormons, jews, hindus, atheists, buddhists??

This is indeed a valid epiphany. And it's one that Mormons take much more comfort in than the next church over. We believe in a 'second chance' of sorts in the afterlife, where people who didn't have the chance in this life to accept Christ, are given that chance in the next.

We do indeed believe that good, honest, righteous people come from the ranks of jews, hindus, athiests, buddhists, etc. It would sure be a shame if Christ's atonement didn't help them out in some way, since it's the only way back to heaven.

LM

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This is a much-debated point amongst Christians. To put it simplistically, Christians are divided into two camps: Calvinists, who believe in "Limited Atonement" (i.e. that Christ died for a select few, "The Elect", whom God chose by decree before time began) and Arminians who believe in "General Atonement" (i.e. that Christ died for all).

Some churches are divided through the middle on this question: For instance, some Methodists are Calvinists while others are Arminian. This division goes back to the very beginning of Methodism, when it was still part of the Anglican Church: George Whitfield was a Calvinist while John Wesley was an Arminian.

The argument for Limited Atonement runs something like this: "If Christ died for everyone, then He must have died for any randomly selected person X. If X does not accept the Gospel and is not saved, then Christ's atonement for that person would have been a failure. Christ is perfect, and is therefore incapable of failure. Ergo, He did not die for everyone. Ergo Limited Atonement"

Please do NOT think I am advocating this line of thought. I am not. I am merely trying to explain the reasoning.

Some would argue that Limited Atonement is a relatively new concept. It was first explicitly stated in 1619 in the Canons of Dort, and has become the "L" in the famous "TULIP" acrostic for the "Five Points of Calvinism". (John Calvin - the nominal founder of Calvinism - never mentioned anything about Limited Atonement.) Of course, not everyone agrees: The American Baptist theologian James White argues forcibly that Limited Atonement is implicit in Pauline doctrines (e.g. Romans 8:29) However, another well known Baptist preacher Gerry Falwell (founder of Liberty University) referred to Limited Atonement as "heresy".

Edited by Jamie123

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what i am about to say will no doubt sound naive and not a little stupid (on my part), but i would really like to hear your opinion if you care to share.

yesterday i was flipping through the channels and i came across a television preacher (it was joel osteen, not that that makes any difference to the topic at hand) who said something that i've been thinking about ever since.

he said that jesus christ died for all. again, you may think me silly, but this was a kind of revelation to me. is this something that is generally agreed upon by mormons (or other christians, for that matter)? christ died for all, regardless of whether they are mormons, jews, hindus, atheists, buddhists??

i guess i always thought that jesus died for those who believed in him....those who were his followers. is this not the case??

don't laugh, i really am curious to know....

I think this is an important realization that everyone must reach at some point. The natural tendency within every religion is to assume that only the members of your own faith and belief set are going to Heaven (or the equivalent).

Specifically as a Latter Day Saint, this should be no surprise. There is a TON of missionary work in the afterlife. We make no assumptions about the eternal fate of anyone, unless we have revelation to back it up with. There are very few cases where such revelation exists. It is impossible to know how far-reaching the mercy of God will be in the next life. We have a vague general idea -- significantly clearer than the rest of Christianity, but still very far from having all the answers. We have what we need, and that is all.

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If for no other reason then the fact that all men will be resurrected did Christ die for us all. Its not limited to that certainly, I for one agree with Book Of Mormon Warrior's statement, so in that sense he died for all as well, but it tends to be an overlooked aspect.

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I have always thought it was for all mankind. The atonement was "infinate and eternal." We do not believe in predestination, and so when Jesus atoned for the sins of the world, he didn't know who in the future was going to accept or reject him. The price was paid in full 2000 years ago. We just need to accept the gift that has already been purchased with his blood.

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What a wonderful epiphany to have. Jesus Christ did atone for the sins of the world ... which sounds huge and so incomprehensible. Bringing it down to the first person makes it so much more wonderful. He went into the Garden and sweat blood to take upon Himself our sins, pain, and sorrows so that we wouldn't have to suffer for them IF we would only follow Him. He was the only one who could do it ... there was no PLan B. The atonement and His subsequent crucifiction to over come temporal death and His resurrection were gifts freely given to everyone who had or will walk the earth. He ask nothing except that if we loved Him we keep his commandments ... it is up to us to accept the gift and realize that once accepted our responsibility is to be the very best we can. He loves us, He knows our names and who we are. We each have the agency to accept or reject His gift. He didn't qualify His atonement ... it was for everyone.

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Many Christians believe that if you do not accept the atonement of Christ, you will burn in hell eternally.

LDS believe that Christ's atonement becomes the gateway to bringing us back into God's presence. Once fallen through our own sins, we are not able to cleanse ourselves sufficiently to be pure in God's presence. Christ came to perform two tasks for us we could not do:

1. Resurrection. All those born into mortality will resurrect because of Christ. This is a free gift.

2. Atonement. This brings us spiritually back into God's presence and glory. This also is a free gift, but there is a caveat: we will receive the portion of the gift that we are willing and able to receive. Those who accept a portion of the gift, will receive the glory and blessings of that portion. Even people who do not fully embrace Jesus as Savior, but who live decent lives, have in effect accepted a portion of Christ's atonement by their decency and goodness. Therefore, those who continue being of other faiths and are happy therein, will still receive the benefits of their spiritual walk and righteousness. Christ has prepared 3 levels of heaven for individuals to receive the level of salvation they wish to receive as their gift. The more we embrace Christ and the fullness of his truth, the more we receive of His glory and blessings.

We believe that a fullness only comes through repentance and following Christ through the guidance of his living prophets today, as given in the LDS Church.

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...he said that jesus christ died for all.

He did die for ALL of Heavenly Father's children. As a result ALL will be resurrected. It is a gift given to everyone. Even murderers and athiests will be resurrected.

Eternal life is another matter and that requires faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior and redeemer, keeping all of his commandments and enduring to the end.

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once more all of you have shown your kindness in answering my questions. thank you for helping me. i have always been drawn to the teachings of christ (shhhhhhh! don't tell my parents!!) and i am glad that all of you love me enough to show patience when i ask what must be simple questions. thank you.

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once more all of you have shown your kindness in answering my questions. thank you for helping me. i have always been drawn to the teachings of christ (shhhhhhh! don't tell my parents!!) and i am glad that all of you love me enough to show patience when i ask what must be simple questions. thank you.

We are all at various levels and stages of learning. I hope you will keep on having a desire to learn. Knowledge and a testimony is one of the few things we take with us into eternity. So keep asking away and I'm sure someone here will have answers you are seeking and I hope you'll keeps visiting us here.

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Jesus did die for all. Such was radical in his day. Remember that he was Jewish. Good Jews did not associate with non-Jews. So, after his resurrection, when Jesus commanded his disciples to take the Good News first to the Jews, but ultimately to the utter most parts of the Earth...the concept was revolutionary. Yet, in hindsight, such was always supposed to be the case. God's original purpose in calling out the Jews, was so they would be "a city on a hill," showing the way for the rest of humanity.

So, Jesus died for all. And, the Apostles followed through by declaring, "Whosoever will may come."

IMHO, Calvinists do misunderstand, when the limit the atonement. On the other hand, I imagine they would say that God calls those who come. Since we do not know who that is, the invitation is given to all.

So...let us come!

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Hi.

Perhaps this will help in understanding the different aspects of Jesus.

1. Jesus lived a life of perfection as an example that it is possible to do it in this world. And so the commandment in Matt 5:48 is very possible.

2. Jesus suffered for us so that He could forgive all men who repented.

3. Jesus bled so that those who have repented and walk by the Spirit can be forgiven moment by moment. And so John said...those who are born of God cannot sin. And It is also written...if a man is led by the Spirit he is NOT under the law. It is the blood of Christ that keeps us clean [after we are repented]

4. Jesus died so that all men can be resurrected. The good as well as the wicked. All men shall receive eternal life.

However, the type of Eternal Life a man will receive will depend on his works. For in revelation God makes is clear that God shall judge us by our works.

The free gift of God is the resurrection for all men. For all men are saved from the death of the flesh.

Does this help any?

peace be unto you

bert10

what i am about to say will no doubt sound naive and not a little stupid (on my part), but i would really like to hear your opinion if you care to share.

yesterday i was flipping through the channels and i came across a television preacher (it was joel osteen, not that that makes any difference to the topic at hand) who said something that i've been thinking about ever since.

he said that jesus christ died for all. again, you may think me silly, but this was a kind of revelation to me. is this something that is generally agreed upon by mormons (or other christians, for that matter)? christ died for all, regardless of whether they are mormons, jews, hindus, atheists, buddhists??

i guess i always thought that jesus died for those who believed in him....those who were his followers. is this not the case??

don't laugh, i really am curious to know....

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what i am about to say will no doubt sound naive and not a little stupid (on my part), but i would really like to hear your opinion if you care to share.

yesterday i was flipping through the channels and i came across a television preacher (it was joel osteen, not that that makes any difference to the topic at hand) who said something that i've been thinking about ever since.

he said that jesus christ died for all. again, you may think me silly, but this was a kind of revelation to me. is this something that is generally agreed upon by mormons (or other christians, for that matter)? christ died for all, regardless of whether they are mormons, jews, hindus, atheists, buddhists??

i guess i always thought that jesus died for those who believed in him....those who were his followers. is this not the case??

don't laugh, i really am curious to know....

We will "ALL" be ressurected; but if one reads the bible {as joel osteen needs to do a little better}; after we are "ALL" ressurected; then comes the judgement day; {maybe he doesnt know that??}:huh:

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Mormons try to be specific in the area of the Atonement. We do not speak in terms of being "saved". That word is not specifically defined among the various religions. Thus, for Mormons, this is a two-part answer:

1. Resurrection

Paul confirms that He died so that ALL may be resurrected: "As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" ( 1 Corinthians 15:22)

2. Eternal Life

Jesus also atoned for ALL sins, ALL suffering, ALL pains of the spirit or body. (See Isaiah 53)

That is NOT to say that we are all saved from our sins. We must CHOOSE life over death. (Eternal Life over Spiritual Death) (Eternal Life = Life with God) (Spiritual Death = Separation from God)

“for God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

Thus, you must believe on his name to have everlasting life.

“Not [he] that saith … Lord, Lord, [will be saved] but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matt. 7:21.)

Thus, you must not only believe, you must also "doeth the will of [the] Father."

Conclusion

Did Christ die for all? Yes. Because of his triumph over death....all will be raised again in immortality. Because of his victory over sin.....all may be forgiven if we meet his proscribed conditions (ie: believe on his name, be baptized, receive the Holy Ghost, repent of our sins, keep his commandments or doeth the will of the Father.)

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what i am about to say will no doubt sound naive and not a little stupid (on my part), but i would really like to hear your opinion if you care to share.

yesterday i was flipping through the channels and i came across a television preacher (it was joel osteen, not that that makes any difference to the topic at hand) who said something that i've been thinking about ever since.

he said that jesus christ died for all. again, you may think me silly, but this was a kind of revelation to me. is this something that is generally agreed upon by mormons (or other christians, for that matter)? christ died for all, regardless of whether they are mormons, jews, hindus, atheists, buddhists??

i guess i always thought that jesus died for those who believed in him....those who were his followers. is this not the case??

don't laugh, i really am curious to know....

I see that you're also on TOL. Is that correct? I'm Martin.Harris.

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what i am about to say will no doubt sound naive and not a little stupid (on my part), but i would really like to hear your opinion if you care to share.

yesterday i was flipping through the channels and i came across a television preacher (it was joel osteen, not that that makes any difference to the topic at hand) who said something that i've been thinking about ever since.

he said that jesus christ died for all. again, you may think me silly, but this was a kind of revelation to me. is this something that is generally agreed upon by mormons (or other christians, for that matter)? christ died for all, regardless of whether they are mormons, jews, hindus, atheists, buddhists??

i guess i always thought that jesus died for those who believed in him....those who were his followers. is this not the case??

don't laugh, i really am curious to know....

The understanding that Jesus died for all mankind’s sins is a most important liberating truth.

First because regardless of what sin or sins anyone has committed they are forgiven and everyone is loved by G-d. Therefore any sin we cling to have already been suffered for – the only detriment in sin during our life on earth is the unnecessary shame and sorrow to the individual that loves such sin more than G-d.

The second liberating truth is that no one has to be concerned about the sins of others. Because Jesus died for all we are free from the sins of others as much as we are our own. This means that the endless cycle of abuse, revenge and pay back to the deserving has been forever broken. Again we do not have to burden ourselves because of evil outside ourselves. The sad truth of this good news my friend bodhigirsmiles is that it can only have an effect to those that in truth believe Jesus is the Christ.

The Traveler

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once more all of you have shown your kindness in answering my questions. thank you for helping me. i have always been drawn to the teachings of christ (shhhhhhh! don't tell my parents!!) and i am glad that all of you love me enough to show patience when i ask what must be simple questions. thank you.

I see from your posts at TOL that you're looking for a religion. May I suggest visiting with Mormon missionaries as part of your search? Go to Mormon.org - Home and request a visit from the missionaries. Go here: Have missionaries contact me They have some awesome things to share with you.

Good Luck with your search. And please don't ever give up.

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Jesus did die for all. Such was radical in his day. Remember that he was Jewish. Good Jews did not associate with non-Jews. So, after his resurrection, when Jesus commanded his disciples to take the Good News first to the Jews, but ultimately to the utter most parts of the Earth...the concept was revolutionary. Yet, in hindsight, such was always supposed to be the case. God's original purpose in calling out the Jews, was so they would be "a city on a hill," showing the way for the rest of humanity.

So, Jesus died for all. And, the Apostles followed through by declaring, "Whosoever will may come."

IMHO, Calvinists do misunderstand, when the limit the atonement. On the other hand, I imagine they would say that God calls those who come. Since we do not know who that is, the invitation is given to all.

So...let us come!

The truth you speak is imbedded in the concepts of Jerusalem and the New Jerusalem. The light unto the world is the Salem covenant as was established and presided over by Melchizedek in the days following the flood unto the days of Abraham. The name Jerusalem in ancient Hebrew literally means Salem on two mountains or hills.

Do you believe that Salem or Jerusalem as a covenant has been established (in a place) in the “Last days” according to prophesy? If you do; where is the place that the ensign has been raised up unto the world?

The Traveler

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Traveler...Springfield, Missouri, USA! http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Position_Papers/pp_downloads/pp_4182_rapture.pdf

Seriously, we understand that in the Last Days Jerusalem is Jerusalem...that Israel will be a central point in the final conflicts of the Great Tribulation. As for from where the message will go forth, it will arise from Jerusalem to the utter most parts of the world, wherever the Holy Spirit resides in hearts.

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Traveler...Springfield, Missouri, USA! http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Position_Papers/pp_downloads/pp_4182_rapture.pdf

Seriously, we understand that in the Last Days Jerusalem is Jerusalem...that Israel will be a central point in the final conflicts of the Great Tribulation. As for from where the message will go forth, it will arise from Jerusalem to the utter most parts of the world, wherever the Holy Spirit resides in hearts.

Thanks - I have always enjoyed your light. What I am wondering is if you believe there is a "Christian" light that is collectively placed on a hill. See for exampel the prophesy Isaiah 2:1-5 (note here the symbolic references to "Zion", "Jerusalem" and the "light of the L-rd" or do you understand this to be literal.)

Are you (speaking of a religious institution or sect) doing anything to "establish", protect or build Jerusalem as spoken of in the above prophesy? In other words - are you as a religious sect involved with Jerusalem or are you waiting and watching (with the rest of the world) what is taking place as far as Jerusalem (Salem on two hills) is concerned?

The Traveler

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