obvious(?) epiphany about christ

[blusun7]

Some great insight. even i learn from all questions asked.

[PastorBob]

As a Gnostic Christian, our view of Jesus is a little different than mainstream Christianity, in that we believe that Jesus was the first creation of God, and that we, excluding Jesus, began misbehaving, and God was going to re-absorb and dissolve us, then Jesus said he didn't want new company, but for us to be fixed, so the world was made to contain us until we "get back on track."

The world is filled with warriors and betrayers, and the greater the one, the greater the other to be attracted to them to be betrayed or punished, until we will do neither.

We recognize the words in 2nd Peter 3:12 'Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?' as referring to the dissolution of all matter once everyone is finished getting back in line.

Thus everyone is already saved whether they accept Jesus or not, but how long people find themselves tarrying in the world depends on their own personal effort.

We also recognize reincarnation and karma from several bible verses:

John 9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

(He had to have sinned in a former life to be born blind.)

Matthew 11:13-14 For all the prophets and the law have prophesied until John. And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who was to come.

The old testament prophesied that Elijah, not someone like him or in the same ministry, would come prior to Jesus, and he did.

Thus everyone is saved already, but has to work out their issues before they can go home to God. Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

[prisonchaplain]

Thanks - I have always enjoyed your light. What I am wondering is if you believe there is a "Christian" light that is collectively placed on a hill. See for exampel the prophesy Isaiah 2:1-5 (note here the symbolic references to "Zion", "Jerusalem" and the "light of the L-rd" or do you understand this to be literal.)

Are you (speaking of a religious institution or sect) doing anything to "establish", protect or build Jerusalem as spoken of in the above prophesy? In other words - are you as a religious sect involved with Jerusalem or are you waiting and watching (with the rest of the world) what is taking place as far as Jerusalem (Salem on two hills) is concerned?

The Traveler

We take the prophecies about Israel, Zion, and Jerusalem to literally refer to those places. We are grafted into the lineage of Abraham, not separated out. So, we do not perceive that there will be a distinct Christian "Zion." We sometimes joke about Springfield being the New Jerusalem, or Mecca, or "The Blue Vatican," (the HQ building is blue), but no...we see the end of time culminating in literal, physical Israel. Our focus is global proclamation, not physical preperation.

[Justice]

Those who believe in the docrine of election don't believe this. However, it is true. Christ had to reverse the effects of the fall.

All men fell because of the fall.

Through Christ, all are made alive.

[bodhigirlsmiles]

I see that you're also on TOL. Is that correct? I'm Martin.Harris.

i am!! hello, hello!

[bodhigirlsmiles]

I see that you're also on TOL. Is that correct? I'm Martin.Harris.

i meant to send you a message there as well....i hope you don't let all the tolers get to you too much. some of them are so harsh toward mormons (and catholics). i hope you stay there as well as here.

[Giant_Son]

i meant to send you a message there as well....i hope you don't let all the tolers get to you too much. some of them are so harsh toward mormons (and catholics). i hope you stay there as well as here.

Thanks. I actually enjoy it over there. They just need to be reminded every now and then what we TRULY believe and not what they think we believe. I have a very strong testimony of the Book of Mormon and this Church. And no Bible-bashing is going to convince me otherwise.

[Traveler]

As a Gnostic Christian,

....

Thank you for posting on this forum. As a Gnostic Christian do you have any information concerning the historical figure Prestor John?

The Traveler

[rameumptom]

Nimrod wrote: That is NOT to say that we are all saved from our sins. We must CHOOSE life over death.

Let me help you here. Jesus DOES save us from our sins. However, he does not save us IN our sins. (see below *)

Salvation comes in levels. It means being brought out of hell and condemnation, back into the presence of (at least one of) the Godhead.

After death, our bodies are buried until the resurrection. Our Spirits go to the Spirit World to await the resurrection. For the righteous (those worthy of celestial and terrestrial glories) it is a place of rest and joy. For the wicked (telestial and sons of perdition) it becomes a place to pay for all unrepented sins. Alma describes the hell he experienced while in his coma (Alma 36):

21 Yea, I say unto you, my son, that there could be nothing so exquisite and so bitter as were my pains. Yea, and again I say unto you, my son, that on the other hand, there can be nothing so exquisite and sweet as was my joy.

Only upon repenting and calling upon Jesus to save him from his hell, was he rescued. This does not mean that Alma was suddenly worthy of celestial glory. It means he was saved by Jesus and was worthy of a kingdom of salvation - with only the act of giving up his sins to Christ in true repentance. Sons of perdition (complete followers of Satan) will refuse to call upon Christ, and will receive a kingdom of no glory whatsoever.

Each kingdom of glory will allow the individual therein to experience the full presence of at least one member of the Godhead, and perhaps the appearance of others in the Godhead, but not of their fullness. So, those who receive a telestial glory will be able to endure/bear/enjoy the presence of the Holy Ghost. Those who receive a terrestrial glory will be able to endure/bear/enjoy the presence of Jesus Christ (and the Holy Ghost). And those in the celestial realm will enjoy the presence of God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost.

Those cast into Outer Darkness (eternal hell) will only have the light of Christ, which is the power of God that pierces through all of space and gives life/existence to all things. It is a kingdom, but not of glory. And they cannot bear to be in the presence of any of the Godhead. Who will be the sons of Perdition? First, Satan and his angels. Second, those who have obtained a major witness of Christ's resurrection, and then become a mortal enemy to Jesus will be eligible for this. Of all the people on earth, we are only certain that Cain became a son of perdition. All others are speculative at best, as most would not qualify (including Judas Iscariot, who had not received the gift of the Holy Ghost, nor seen the resurrected Christ).

So, salvation for God's children is almost universal.

* Alma 11

34 And Zeezrom said again: Shall he save his people in their sins? And Amulek answered and said unto him: I say unto you he shall not, for it is impossible for him to deny his word.

35 Now Zeezrom said unto the people: See that ye remember these things; for he said there is but one God; yet he saith that the Son of God shall come, but he shall not save his people—as though he had authority to command God.

36 Now Amulek saith again unto him: Behold thou hast lied, for thou sayest that I spake as though I had authority to command God because I said he shall not save his people in their sins.

37 And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.

38 Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father?

39 And Amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last;

40 And he shall come into the world to redeem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that shall have eternal life, and salvation cometh to none else.

41 Therefore the wicked remain as though there had been no redemption made, except it be the loosing of the bands of death; for behold, the day cometh that all shall rise from the dead and stand before God, and be judged according to their works.

42 Now, there is a death which is called a temporal death; and the death of Christ shall loose the bands of this temporal death, that all shall be raised from this temporal death.

43 The spirit and the body shall be reunited again in its perfect form; both limb and joint shall be restored to its proper frame, even as we now are at this time; and we shall be brought to stand before God, knowing even as we know now, and have a bright recollection of all our guilt.

44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

45 Now, behold, I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of the mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body, that is from death, even from the first death unto life, that they can die no more; their spirits uniting with their bodies, never to be divided; thus the whole becoming spiritual and immortal, that they can no more see corruption.

46 Now, when Amulek had finished these words the people began again to be astonished, and also Zeezrom began to tremble. And thus ended the words of Amulek, or this is all that I have written.

(see also Alma 12, Mormon 9, D&C 19). Edited March 18, 2009 by rameumptom