Question about denying the Holy Ghost

[Guest JHM-in-Bountiful]

If a member chooses to become inactive and does not want to recieve the endowments, is that the same as denying the Holy Ghost? If it is not denying the Holy Ghost, can the member still obtain the Telestial kingdom of glory?

[Maxel]

I've always understood that to become a Son of Perdition and inherit Outer Darkness, one has to be so intimately connected to the teachings of Christ and know Him so well- and then still deny the Holy Ghost and its power. It is literally choosing hell after Heaven has been opened up before a person's eyes.

I would say no, a member that you have described would not qualify as a Son of Perdition. However, they may be limited solely to the Telestial Kingdom if they do not repent while still living, as they rejected the greater truth of the Gospel. As in all cases, however, it is up to Christ to judge a person's final resting place.

[jadams_4040]

If a member chooses to become inactive and does not want to recieve the endowments, is that the same as denying the Holy Ghost? If it is not denying the Holy Ghost, can the member still obtain the Telestial kingdom of glory?

To refuse heavenly things which one knows to be true; is a problem; I beleive in the bible it speaks somewhat of this; As it speaks of someone whom denies, will be shutup into prison and will not be able to come out till that person has paid "the uttermost farthling". {price}. Dont know if this means telestial instead of celestial as a meaning of prison?:)

[Vort]

If a member chooses to become inactive and does not want to recieve the endowments, is that the same as denying the Holy Ghost?

No.

If it is not denying the Holy Ghost, can the member still obtain the Telestial kingdom of glory?

Of course, if that's what he's shooting for.

[nimrod]

An excerpt from: Cecil O. Samuelson Jr., “Words of Jesus: Forgiveness,” Ensign, Feb 2003, 48

All Sins but One

The Savior was very clear that, conditioned on repentance, all of our sins can be forgiven through His sacred and atoning sacrifice except for what He called “blasphemy against the Holy Ghost” (Matt. 12:31; see also Mark 3:28–29). The Prophet Joseph Smith taught on this subject: “Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against Him.” 4

4. Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith (1976), 358.

[georgia2]

Hi JHM-in-Bountiful,

If a person decides he wants to be inactive and not go to the temple. he can. This isn't denying the Holy Ghost. It's just not accepting the gift that is offered of entering in to the covenant of the endowment, (gift)

QUOTE The Prophet Joseph Smith taught on this subject: “Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against Him.” 4

being saved is not the same as receiving the blessing of being able to enter in to the celestial kingdom. In order to be able to receive that blessing YOU MUST enter in to the everlasting covenant and KEEP the covenants that you promise. What this is, is receiving the endowment (gift) that Heavenly Father offers each of us by being worthy to enter in to the temple and to keep our part of the promise. THen we will receive the reward and blessing of being able to live eternally with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ.

[georgia2]

To refuse heavenly things which one knows to be true; is a problem; I beleive in the bible it speaks somewhat of this; As it speaks of someone whom denies, will be shutup into prison and will not be able to come out till that person has paid "the uttermost farthling". {price}. Dont know if this means telestial instead of celestial as a meaning of prison?:)

Each peson will inherit the kingdom to which they lived their life. Most people will receive the terrestial kingdom. This is the kingdom where people are pretty much good people who treated others pretty good, but have not lived up to the higher laws. Those are the laws or promises made during the endowment. The lowest kingdom in paradise is much better than anything we can even imagine. But, when you get there, you will for eternity be asking yourself, why didn't you go the extra mile and receive the highest kingdom.

[Faded]

If a member chooses to become inactive and does not want to recieve the endowments, is that the same as denying the Holy Ghost? If it is not denying the Holy Ghost, can the member still obtain the Telestial kingdom of glory?

Denying the Holy Ghost -- that is to say, committing the unforgivable sin, is VERY difficult to do. We know of a grand total of 1 person that is destined for outer darkness, and we know almost nothing of the back story. That person is Cain. Obviously, what we do know is that when God appeared to Cain, it was apparently almost second nature to Cain. He apparently knew the Lord very, very well. And from what revelation we have on the matter, Cain must have once been a man of God - a prophet or something like it.

The only other example we have is not 100% certain and that is Judas Iscariot. John the Beloved was pretty sure that was what Judas was a Son of Perdition, but there is still a good deal of doubt in the minds of a lot of people on the matter. One reason that Judas may not fully qualify is that there is some doubt whether he had fully received "a fullness from God." He does provide a much more useful example: He knew for an absolute fact who Jesus was. Jesus placed in Judas the highest level of trust and responsibility -- he was an Apostle. And yet Judas knowingly betrayed his God and King to be killed.

To qualify for outer darkness, you have to know God better than most people will ever know him. It is very likely that you would need to have your calling and election made sure, and that's a very very rare thing indeed. I can only think of a small handful of examples of it from scripture, even among all the multitude of incredible prophets and men of God. After knowing God that well, "You must say that the Sun does not shine at noonday" and "crucify Christ afresh in your own heart." You must turn so completely against God that you would cheerfully help pound the nails into his hands and feet.

There is a reason it is the "Unforgivable Sin". To even imagine committing it is so incomprehensible that it is impossible for me to wrap my head around it.

So the short answer: I think your friend is not capable of committing the unforgivable sin. Not even slightly close to it.

Edited March 17, 2009 by Faded

[bert10]

It is when a man puts himself beyond the Ability to be renewed unto repentance by the Holy Ghost.

Jesus Basically compared it...to ....once a man has been salted and the salt goes bad...then there is nothing left to re-salt that man.

Now there is no power greater than the Holy Ghost that can renew a man unto repentance after a man has offended it.

1. To offend it a man must refuse to repent all the days of his life and until after the last the Resurrection. Satan and the Devil took an oath that they would never repent.

2. After "tasting" the gifts of the Holy Ghost if a man should fall....then it is impossible to be renewed unto Repentance.

See Hebrews 6:4 to 6:6 This is by no means the whole list a man may do.

But as you can see it is not easy to receive the gifts of the Holy Ghost and so in turn it is not easy to commit the sin against the Holy Ghost. This sin has such implications on our Eternal Life....that normally before one can commit the sin against the Holy Ghost one must become "Children of the Kingdom."

Children of the kingdom are they who are truly Born of God. Not as the Christian teach it however. see John.

Hebrews 6:4 - For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

Peace be unto you

bert10

If a member chooses to become inactive and does not want to recieve the endowments, is that the same as denying the Holy Ghost? If it is not denying the Holy Ghost, can the member still obtain the Telestial kingdom of glory?

Edited March 17, 2009 by bert10

[Just_A_Guy]

It is when a man puts himself beyond the Ability to be renewed unto repentance by the Holy Ghost.

I like this. (Er, I mean, I like the way you've phrased it.)

[Vort]

Denying the Holy Ghost -- that is to say, committing the unforgivable sin, is VERY difficult to do. We know of a grand total of 1 person that is destined for outer darkness, and we know almost nothing of the back story. That person is Cain.

In John 17:12, Jesus refers to Judas Iscariot as "the son of perdition" when praying; see also 3 Nephi 27:32. D&C 76 defines those who will be lost, and verse 31 starts, "They are they who are the sons of perdition". The use of the plural indicates that there will be more than just one.

As I recall, Elder McConkie did not share your opinion about the miniscule number of those who will be lost.

[PastorBob]

Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is to attribute beneficial thaumaturgical power to Satan, it is the rejection of the knowledge because it does not pander to one's prejudices, and the reward of it, is to have to learn the hard way regarding the matter in question, thus it is not "forgiven" ie; passed over, as opposed to having to learn life's lessons.

Matthew 12: 18 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

Edited March 17, 2009 by PastorBob
Bible passage number omitted.

[Vort]

Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is to attribute beneficial thaumaturgical power to Satan

Believing Satan to be a "good witch" doesn't have anything to do with denial of the Holy Ghost.

[Faded]

It is critically important that we, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, have been given a lot more light on this matter (as well as countless other subjects.) The unforgivable sin is not well defined nor well explained in the Bible. As a result, it has become the topic of a good amount of theological speculation.

Since the rest of Christianity does not accept that Joseph Smith was a true prophet, they don't have all the information that he revealed to us on the matter. We have a very good grasp of the idea, but most of our information comes from modern revelation through modern day prophets.

[PastorBob]

It is quite clear what it is in the bible: Jesus cast out devils, the clergy of his day didn't want his competition, so they told everyone that he was possessed himself, to which he replied, in no uncertain terms, that satan's power cannot do good, cannot heal, cannot cast out, else his kingdom could not stand. If someone attributes this to satan, then they blaspheme the Holy Ghost.

Matthew chapter 12:

12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

12:27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.

[Guest missingsomething]

I think this is not for us to decide - because I can not see the desires of one's heart.

You always have the opportunity to change... and you arent pulling people away from the Holy Ghost.

[Faded]

In John 17:12, Jesus refers to Judas Iscariot as "the son of perdition" when praying; see also 3 Nephi 27:32. D&C 76 defines those who will be lost, and verse 31 starts, "They are they who are the sons of perdition". The use of the plural indicates that there will be more than just one.

As I recall, Elder McConkie did not share your opinion about the minuscule number of those who will be lost.

Firstly, I never said there would by a minuscule number of Son's of Perdition. I said that there was only 1 person we know of that we are 100% certain will be one and that person is Cain. I also said it is incredibly difficult to do. I certainly never weighed in on what the actual numbers would look like. Probably some number between 1 and a billion.

Judas Iscariot seems like the perfect candidate, but there are modern prophets who doubted he will be one, so it probably throws a wrench in the certainty of his fate.

I'm okay with not knowing every person who will be cast into Outer Darkness. That anyone could earn such a terrible fate is sad beyond my ability to express.

[rayhale]

There has been several Apostles that have been excommunicated and have gotten rebaptized back into the Church. An Apostle is a special witness of Jesus Christ, yet if one is excommunicated, he, as far as I know, is not considered a Son of Perdition, so I highly doubt any one else, will be one.

[HiJolly]

There has been several Apostles that have been excommunicated and have gotten rebaptized back into the Church. An Apostle is a special witness of Jesus Christ, yet if one is excommunicated, he, as far as I know, is not considered a Son of Perdition, so I highly doubt any one else, will be one.

I agree. Even denying the Savior is not unforgivable.

I like to look at this in the micro sense, much as I do the Second Coming of Christ.

If I refuse to heed the promptings of the Holy Ghost, can I be saved? This is the 'micro' sense. That small denial can really add up to a lot of grief.

HiJolly

[Hemidakota]

If a member chooses to become inactive and does not want to recieve the endowments, is that the same as denying the Holy Ghost? If it is not denying the Holy Ghost, can the member still obtain the Telestial kingdom of glory?

Have you personally seen the Holy Ghost?

[Hemidakota]

I've always understood that to become a Son of Perdition and inherit Outer Darkness, one has to be so intimately connected to the teachings of Christ and know Him so well- and then still deny the Holy Ghost and its power. It is literally choosing hell after Heaven has been opened up before a person's eyes.

I would say no, a member that you have described would not qualify as a Son of Perdition. However, they may be limited solely to the Telestial Kingdom if they do not repent while still living, as they rejected the greater truth of the Gospel. As in all cases, however, it is up to Christ to judge a person's final resting place.

Only the members of the Church of the First Born who deny the Christ and fight against truth, they are the only ones whom can be called the Sons of Perdition. They had received the Second Comforter and choose openly to carrying out this action.

Unless the Godhead has made your salvation or calling 'made sure', you cannot be considered a Son of Perdition, if you choose to deny it.

[HiJolly]

Only the members of the Church of the First Born who deny the Christ and fight against truth, they are the only ones whom can be called the Sons of Perdition. They had received the Second Comforter and choose openly to carrying out this action.

Unless the Godhead has made your salvation or calling 'made sure', you cannot be considered a Son of Perdition, if you choose to deny it.

...and that's the truth.

HiJolly

[Jonathan CV]

It appears to me that DC 138:58-59 is the primary law of the universe:  "The dead who repent will be redeemed...heirs of salvation."  That last term includes the Tele-stial Kingdom of Heaven.

If this is true, then the only unforgivable sin is failure to repent. "Forgiveness" means allowed out of hell, into heaven; redeemed, saved, get out of jail free.

I think the unpardonable sin is essentially to continue in knowing, understanding, unrepentant, deliberate rebellion against the rightful, honorable authority of the Almighty.  Continued.

Paul in Hebrews 6:4-6 states that there are cases where it is IMPOSSIBLE "to renew [some] unto repentance."  I believe that several apostles of the restored church have cautioned against sinning beyond one's CAPACITY to repent.

Not beyond some deadline, not refused repentance. It is simply IMPOSSIBLE to be allowed into the Kingdom (C, T, or T) if you are in continuing sadistic rebellion against the King and His willing subjects.

Thank God.

[prisonchaplain]

On 3/25/2009 at 6:49 AM, HiJolly said:

If I refuse to heed the promptings of the Holy Ghost, can I be saved? This is the 'micro' sense. That small denial can really add up to a lot of grief.

HiJolly

My outsider view is that creation itself cries out that God exists. However, is it not a prompting of the Holy Ghost that speaks to the soul? "The sun is beautiful, the mountains are amazing, the water so gorgeous--there must be a Maker--a Designer."

Such a prompt can be resisted many times. Only one affirming response is needed. A soul can be saved after many rejections/hesitations related to the Holy Ghost. Of course, at some point we harden our heart so much that a positive response becomes out of reach. There comes a point where the Holy Ghost says, "Enough." Afterwards, the soul cannot submit to the promptings of the Holy Ghost. That soul has blasphemed the Holy Ghost. Thankfully, it is not for any human to judge or conclude that this has happened. Indeed, even if I look to myself, the fact that I am wondering if I have blasphemed the Holy Ghost should tell me that I have not. If I had I wouldn't care.

BUT, in my rejections and hesitations, I will have delayed my salvation. Those hours/days/months/years are a period of time when I might have been a positive influence on another. So, not only did I put off my own peace with God. I may have missed facilitating the salvation of others. Grief indeed. Thankfully, our Heavenly Father is merciful, grace-full, and most forgiving. 

Edited August 20, 2023 by prisonchaplain

[zil2]

Welcome back, @Jonathan CV!  Hope to hear from you more.

I think what you say sounds like a reasonable interpretation.  And I think @prisonchaplain's view also aligns pretty well, maybe perfectly, with what we believe.  I imagine it as someone becoming so arrogant that when the final judgment comes, they will stand looking at Christ and say, in effect, "I reject you!"  Those are the sorts of people who will go, knowing full well what they do, into perdition.