What would the church be like today if polygamy was never part of it's history?

[Wildflower]

I have been thinking about this question a lot lately. If it weren't for polygamy, my entire family would not even exist right now. But what about the church? So I decided to post the question, since I know there are people out there who know a lot more about polygamy and church history than me. Would mormons not have crossed the plains if polygamy didn't happen? How much of a role did polygamy play in their persecution? I would just like to hear what other people think about it. I also am curious to know how many members today descend from polygamists. Does anyone know the answer to that?

[prospectmom]

I have no ansers but like you am interested in any one wo has the answers.....

[talisyn]

If it wasn't polygamy some other excuse for the persecution would do. I am not descended from polygamists (in my gggrandfather's journal my gggrandmother mentioned various farming implements when the subject arose), and I feel like I missed out lol. I think the church would be a lot less interesting without polygamy.

[john doe]

One branch of my family tree comes indirectly through polygamy. An ancestor was married to a polygamist, but she had been a widow with children before that, and she was much younger than he was. I always got the impression that it was a marriage to provide support for her young family. I think that there were many such polygamous marriages in those days, but obviously not all of them.

From that perspective, I think that if there had not been polygamous marriages, there would have been far more single-parent households in the Salt Lake Valley, and the children of those households would not have been taught and raised in the gospel with a father figure teaching them. It would have been much easier for a large number of eligible women to marry men outside the church, and their children would have lost gospel blessings as a result. I'm sure that is a small part of the equation, but I believe that it is significant enough to be considered as part of the whole.

[Moksha]

If no polygamy, eh?

Since much doctrine came as a supportive adjuct to polygamy, we would have a Church that sounded different. There would have been no Utah exodus since Joseph Smith would have been alive. They would have remained in the City of Nauvoo. If Joseph Smith had lived, there would have been no adoption of a policy of racial exclusion. If that were so, and since we had a seventy year head start on PrisonChaplin's Church, we too may have had a world wide membership of 300 million or more.

[Palerider]

Wow....just think....no polygamy....and a guy has a whole lot less Mother in Law's to deal with back then.....

[Elphaba]

Frankly, I'm not sure if the Church would have survived without polygamy.

Church members speak of the earliest years of the Church as "separating the wheat from the tares." (I hope that's right.) The earliest members of the Church went through so many trials that those who stayed true to the gospel, including migrating to Utah under extremely dire circumstances, were the strongest survivors with the strongest testimonies.

Polygamy also weeded out the weaker members of the Church, beginning with Joseph's practice, which literally tore the Church apart, and on through the next fifty years where prophets and other Church leaders insisted polygamy was commanded by God.

Even those for whom polygamy was extremely difficult, a commandment from God was what they would obey.

In fact, before the Church officially announced its practice of polygamy, converts from all over the country, but especially from England, had no idea they would find what was to many, a repulsive form of marriage. The converts who could not accept it usually left the Church if they physically could, (meaning it was extremely difficult, if not impossible, for many of them to travel) Those who were left, again, had very strong testimonies, even under very difficult circumstances.

Then there was, of course, the government's interference with polygamy, sentencing polygamist husbands to jail time. However, in my opinion, the mothers suffered more, because they had to do everything they could to subvert the law, while taking care of their children, including financially.

(This was also true when their hsubands were sent on years-long missions. Many women were left to financially care for their children alone. I think this is also one of the reasons the sisters were such strong members.)

I don't come across many members who know this, but when the government was trying to forece the Saints to give up polygamy, there was an underground in place that enabled mothers to disappear with their children, so they would not be forced by the law to testify against their husbands.

This underground was extremely difficult for the mothers, because they had to carry, and care for, their children over long distances, including during summer with its blistering heat and winter with its biting cold.

In Annie Clark Tanner's book Mormon Mother, she describes her experiences with the Mormon underground railroad. It is fascinating, (and to me a bit unfair; sitting in jail would have been a lot easier.)

The Church's pioneers who stayed in Utah, and lived "the principle" of Celestial Marriage, truly weeded out those who were not strong believers.

The result was an exceptionally hardy population that would do anything for its Church because of their love for God. I think if all of these members hadn't had to harden up, and harden up fast, staying with the Church would have been too difficult. Obviously I can't say how many would have left, but I think it would have been a significant number.

I have said before that I think it's unfortunate the Church cannot officially focus on this part of its history without seeming to endorse polygamy. I understand it, I just think it unfortunate, because these pioneers' histories are absolutely fascinating. I think members of the Church would be inspired by their ancestor's trials, which they survived because of their love of God.

Elphaba

[Madriglace]

If no polygamy, eh?

Since much doctrine came as a supportive adjuct to polygamy, we would have a Church that sounded different. There would have been no Utah exodus since Joseph Smith would have been alive. They would have remained in the City of Nauvoo. If Joseph Smith had lived, there would have been no adoption of a policy of racial exclusion. If that were so, and since we had a seventy year head start on PrisonChaplin's Church, we too may have had a world wide membership of 300 million or more.

D&C 130: 15

15 Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter.

This would have put the Second Coming just after the turn of the century. Polygamy and all that went with it were basically the refiners fire. Kind of like 40 years in the wilderness for the children of Israel.

[foreverafter]

Without polygamy, even though many men in the Church did not live it righteously, the Church would have almost surely dwindled & died because women probably never would have awoken to their equality with men & what their true station was, which was vital to the progression of the Church. Without the pain & unfairness of polygamy to wake them up & cause them to question men & things as they were being done, women would have likely gone on as they had for 6000 years, thinking that men were superior to them or had more rights & a last say in marriage & that they were practically on the level of children to be collected, ruled & dictated to. How wonderful was Emma with her divinely inspired spunk & spirit to start the grand wake up of women so Heavenly Father could use women's strength, leadership & example to establish Zion.

Edited March 19, 2009 by foreverafter

[foreverafter]

Without polygamy, even though many men in the Church did not live it righteously, the Church would have almost surely dwindled & died because women probably never would have awoken to their equality with men, without the pain & unfairness of polygamy to wake them up & cause them to question men & things as they were being done. Women would have likely gone on as they had for 6000 years, thinking that men were superior to them or had more rights & a last say in marriage & that they were practically on the level of children to be collected, ruled & dictated to. How wonderful was Emma with her divinely inspired spunk & spirit to start the grand wake up of women so Heavenly Father could use women's strength, voice & example to establish Zion.

Edited March 19, 2009 by foreverafter

[Moksha]

Polygamy and all that went with it were basically the refiners fire. Kind of like 40 years in the wilderness for the children of Israel.

I hear you Madriglace. However, have we ever stopped to appreciate the irony of all the effort we exert defending the polygamy of the past and the polygamy in the hereafter, yet we bristle at the thought of our non-mormon contemporaries equating us with the practice of polygamy?

[Moksha]

Without polygamy, even though many men in the Church did not live it righteously, the Church would have almost surely dwindled & died because women probably never would have awoken to their equality... Without the pain & unfairness of polygamy to wake them up & cause them to question men & things as they were being done, women would have likely gone on as they had for 6000 years, thinking that men were superior to them or had more rights....

Could this be the reason most LDS women opposed the Equal rights amendment?

[Guest Alana]

Smaller

[Churchmouse]

I don't know how many members today have polygamy in their family tree, but one prominent member does. Mitt Romney's great-grandfather, Miles Romney, had five wives.

I think the Lord well decide what will be done in Heaven. I'll leave it up to him.

[foreverafter]

Could this be the reason most LDS women opposed the Equal rights amendment?

Righteous women were opposed to the Equal Rights Amendment, not because it recognized women as equal to men, but because it disrespected the divine roles of women, which are exactly why women have so much power, even more than men, over their posterity & the world. Righteous women understand their equal rights & say in marriage & the nation, without throwing out their divine roles. The hand that rocks the cradle rules the world.

Worldly women, though justifiably angry with the domination of men for 6000 years, have gone too far over to the other side of the equation & wanted to do without men completely, instead of loving men anyway while teaching them how to respect & honor the equality of women & applying consequences if they don't.

Edited March 20, 2009 by foreverafter

[Just_A_Guy]

. . . there was an underground in place that enabled mothers to disappear with their children, so they would not be forced by the law to testify against their husbands.

My recollection is that Utah's spousal protection statutes are stronger than that of most other states--they were thus drafted in 1896, when the polygamy prosecutions were still fresh in everyone's minds.

(Edit: I should have said spousal privilege statutes--the statutes that make it so a husband doesn't have to testify against a wife, or vice-versa)

Edited March 20, 2009 by Just_A_Guy

[Madriglace]

I hear you Madriglace. However, have we ever stopped to appreciate the irony of all the effort we exert defending the polygamy of the past and the polygamy in the hereafter, yet we bristle at the thought of our non-mormon contemporaries equating us with the practice of polygamy?

What you say makes sense. Polygamy is part of who we are, it is our heritage. I don't know why folks get so bent when someone says , "Oh ... you believe in more than one wife." Basically that is a missionary moment ... go for it! If this is as hard as the persecution gets we are home free ... but don't get comfortable. No matter what anyone says the church is perfect and the work will roll on ... we have better things to do than get in a huff about something that has been over since 1890.

[Madriglace]

Righteous women were opposed to the Equal Rights Amendment, not because it recognized women as equal to men, but because it disrespected the divine roles of women, which are exactly why women have so much power, even more than men, over their posterity & the world. Righteous women understand their equal rights & say in marriage & the nation, without throwing out their divine roles. The hand that rocks the cradle rules the world.

Worldly women, though justifiably angry with the domination of men for 6000 years, have gone too far over to the other side of the equation & wanted to do without men completely, instead of loving men anyway while teaching them how to respect & honor the equality of women & applying consequences if they don't.

I know a gal who is related to John D Lee be very surprised when she found out I was a member of the church. She said I was intelligent and she couldn't see me walking a step behind a husband. I just laughed and said she hadn't been to church recently. If you want something done ... call the Relief Society. I think the worlds view of LDS women being down trodden and repressed is comical ... they haven't met my mother.

[Vort]

Since much doctrine came as a supportive adjuct to polygamy, we would have a Church that sounded different.

Probably true.

There would have been no Utah exodus since Joseph Smith would have been alive.

Incorrect. Joseph Smith told Brigham Young that the Church body would move to the Rocky Mountains. Brigham didn't come up with that one his own.

They would have remained in the City of Nauvoo.

Nope. See above.

If Joseph Smith had lived, there would have been no adoption of a policy of racial exclusion.

Pure, chest-thumping speculation.

[Vort]

D&C 130: 15

15 Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter.

This would have put the Second Coming just after the turn of the century. Polygamy and all that went with it were basically the refiners fire. Kind of like 40 years in the wilderness for the children of Israel.

Your speculation is incorrect. Read verse 16.

[Dravin]

I think the worlds view of LDS women being down trodden and repressed is comical ... they haven't met my mother.

Or sat in on many Elder's Quorum or High Priest's meetings, particularly the lessons on women and motherhood. At least in my experience if one sex is held as superior (generally speaking, and in the US) in the minds of church member's its women, not men. And as for people thinking men think the priesthood makes them better than women, my experience is the sentiment is that men need the priesthood so they have a shot of being equal to their spouses.

Edited March 20, 2009 by Dravin
Last minute thought.

[Vort]

Or sat in on many Elder's Quorum or High Priest's meetings, particularly the lessons on women and motherhood. At least in my experience if one sex is held as superior (generally speaking, and in the US) in the minds of church member's its women, not men.

Agreed, that's the much more common belief.

And as for people thinking men think the priesthood makes them better than women, my experience is the sentiment is that men need the priesthood so they have a shot of being equal to their spouses.

Has anyone who promulgates this vomit ever stopped to think of what the effect would be if people actually BELIEVED it? Do we really want a generation of men who honestly believe they are intrinsically inferior to the women they marry? Do we really want a generation of women who honestly believe they are married to inferior beings? We all probably know men and women like that; how would you like a whole church full of them?

[Madriglace]

Your speculation is incorrect. Read verse 16.

The point being that it wasn't going to happen .... .

[Guest missingsomething]

I believe that pologamy was set forth from Divine revalation and therefore if it had not been practiced, we would be no different than any other church.... we would have survived if it were not for a prophet from God.

But honestly - is this even a discussion worth happening... because it IS part of our history... it DID save families... and we our faith to trust God has developed because of the experiences our church has had. I dunno.. just a thought.

[Moksha]

Incorrect. Joseph Smith told Brigham Young that the Church body would move to the Rocky Mountains. Brigham didn't come up with that one his own.

However, some of the reasons for either one contemplating this exodus would have been altered, since the main gripe of Joseph's polygamous explorations with the married ladies and other women would not have occurred.

The building of the Nauvoo Temple indicates to me that they would have wished to remain in Nauvoo, had they not met with such resistance.

Pure, chest-thumping speculation.

While the idea that had Joseph Smith lived, the policy of racial exclusion would not have occurred is speculative, you must remember we are a speculative people.