Ok - What is the unspoken law....


Debs
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on divorced people in the church?

I have been a member for 9 years now and it was only when i was married that i was actually treated like a member. This is not just one ward but one ward and two branches, as good as they all were/are there is a significant difference in attitude and it toataly HACKS me off.

I would never dream of not including SA or divorced people in anything i organise, i would never avoid someone that is newly or otherwise separated/divorced/widowed and time and again I have actually quoted Pres. Hinckley on his counsel towards single people, espcially single mums.

Right now I am losing the will to attend church. Its only because i know my testimony will be begin to suffer if i dont and because i refuse for my children to see theres any issues in my mind for them to lose their testimonies too. I cant say i actually enjoy going to church anymore and the sad thing is, i've been divorced all the time i've been in this ward, so they've never known me any different yet there are over 12 families joined our ward since i came here and NOT one of those are pushed on the wayside...and yes i have made an effort with each and everyone of them, i've even posed the question of divorced/single people in the ward and i'm greeted with blank looks that tell me that imight as well be asking for their bank card. In all it makes me feel like i am surplus to requirements, something to be humoured and not really credit worthy in anyway till i am remarried. I have continually offered help and support to whomever, its rarely taken up yet i hear over and again that they got noone to do this or do that and i'm sitting there thinking, 'well noone asked me!' and thats after i've stated that i am willing and able to help in a whole variety of ways.

Then i'm asked to do helping hands service, which i love doing as well as my kids, then i hear of all the additional help and support married mums are getting with their gardens or decorating. I've been asking for 2 years now for some help iwth my garden that was way overgrown befor ei moved into the house. with a dislocated kneecap i cant even begin the garden work so again i just feel like i'm nothing.

Somewhere i am missing the point and i am really frustrated about it all. My bishop/HT/VT's are all aware of my feelings and agree that its an issue in majority of wards/branches but if ONE person doesnt begin to change things how the heck will it ever change???

Sorry for the rant here but i am fed up of bucking my jaw and getting on with it quietly, surely i am allowed to want to fellowship just like everyone else? If i never got any help (garden) that would be fine but i just hate being treated like i'm some stupid female who knows nothing and has no worth.

But oh, let me miss a sunday because i'm ill or the kids are ill and i have FOUR people on the phone.....!!!!!

Any suggestions or new insight that i've missed would be welcome cos my thinking is kinda repetitive right now!!

Debs

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on divorced people in the church?

I have been a member for 9 years now and it was only when i was married that i was actually treated like a member. This is not just one ward but one ward and two branches, as good as they all were/are there is a significant difference in attitude and it toataly HACKS me off.

I would never dream of not including SA or divorced people in anything i organise, i would never avoid someone that is newly or otherwise separated/divorced/widowed and time and again I have actually quoted Pres. Hinckley on his counsel towards single people, espcially single mums.

Right now I am losing the will to attend church. Its only because i know my testimony will be begin to suffer if i dont and because i refuse for my children to see theres any issues in my mind for them to lose their testimonies too. I cant say i actually enjoy going to church anymore and the sad thing is, i've been divorced all the time i've been in this ward, so they've never known me any different yet there are over 12 families joined our ward since i came here and NOT one of those are pushed on the wayside...and yes i have made an effort with each and everyone of them, i've even posed the question of divorced/single people in the ward and i'm greeted with blank looks that tell me that imight as well be asking for their bank card. In all it makes me feel like i am surplus to requirements, something to be humoured and not really credit worthy in anyway till i am remarried. I have continually offered help and support to whomever, its rarely taken up yet i hear over and again that they got noone to do this or do that and i'm sitting there thinking, 'well noone asked me!' and thats after i've stated that i am willing and able to help in a whole variety of ways.

Then i'm asked to do helping hands service, which i love doing as well as my kids, then i hear of all the additional help and support married mums are getting with their gardens or decorating. I've been asking for 2 years now for some help iwth my garden that was way overgrown befor ei moved into the house. with a dislocated kneecap i cant even begin the garden work so again i just feel like i'm nothing.

Somewhere i am missing the point and i am really frustrated about it all. My bishop/HT/VT's are all aware of my feelings and agree that its an issue in majority of wards/branches but if ONE person doesnt begin to change things how the heck will it ever change???

Sorry for the rant here but i am fed up of bucking my jaw and getting on with it quietly, surely i am allowed to want to fellowship just like everyone else? If i never got any help (garden) that would be fine but i just hate being treated like i'm some stupid female who knows nothing and has no worth.

But oh, let me miss a sunday because i'm ill or the kids are ill and i have FOUR people on the phone.....!!!!!

Any suggestions or new insight that i've missed would be welcome cos my thinking is kinda repetitive right now!!

Debs

I feel your hurt and frustration.

I'll say, leaving the church isn't the answer.

It's ok to vent, as we all need to vent in some manner.

These four people on the phone, they care enough to call. Perhaps you can call them, tell them that you need help.

It hurts to get swept into the cracks, but the squeaky wheel gets the oil.

Speak out to them and let them know how they can help you.

Call your Relief Society President and talk with her, make your needs known.

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You have probally heard this a million times................its the people that are treating you ill and NOT the gospel. Does that make it any easier...absolutely not. Even though I am not in your current situation I am in one as well (my dh and I are unable to have children). It is imho, that when individuals (or couples) don't fit in the norm of a typical LDS family it is hard for those that do to understand their specific needs. Basically I believe that there is awhole lot of assuming going on .... on both ends of the spectrum. We who live those lives need to educate those who don't. Also, and this comes from my own experience, that we might need to swallow a bit of pride and ask for help. People don't know its needed if it isn't asked for.

Go to church to be uplifted and edified. Don't go because you have to, go because you want to. I allowed my feelings to get in the way and became inactive for over 2 years. It was/is a strugle to go, but I know that is where I need to be.

Hang in there Debs, our Lord is mindful of us who simply don't fit in.

(((hugs)))

Les

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Hi GingerGolden

Thanks for your lovely comments. Its not an option for me to become inactive, I wont allow myself to become affected in that way to jeopardise my testimony/faith.

Yes i have talked to the people you mentioned, and while all of them are lovely people and mean well nothing ever gets done! It stops with the conversation! My bishop is an excellent man with a very deep understanding of compassion, and i know he understands my feelings but even he can only do so much. I think its a case of if your married it doesnt affect you kind of syndrome but its these married people that are the CAUSE of the issues for us singleys!!!

**sigh**

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Hi Lester!! ;)

Thanks for your kind words and support there.

I heard a talk a few years ago by David A Bednar about the choice to be offfended or not, I have always held that view so when i heard the ways he explianed it I promised myself then that i was not going to allow anything to take that knowledge and distort it in my head and it has been an anchor in many situations. I cant be offended by anyone else, not even my ward but my feelings are still hurt and confused because i dont understand or can make sense of their attitudes.

I am sorry you have issues with getting pregnant, and yes, you are in the same bracket as me as in we dont fit in the ideal family unit but i still cant find it in my head to condone the behaviours. I know the people mean well and it has nothing to do with docrine or gospel, (thank goodness!) and i also know nothing will change in one go but one person CAN start making a difference, one at a time and that is what i hope im doing in my ward, letting them know that I am capable of many things, i'm willing for many things and i have a lot to offer.

Im sad to say that i've seen investigaters treated better. that said, im not giving up, i do enjoy the lessons, i feel the spirit and i learn a lot, its ONLY the human interaction side that i dont enjoy, that somehow needs to be altered.

Maybe when my book gets published i'll become an ''understanding'' and be promoted to the next level...whatever that is!!! LOL

Debs

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Debs,

Your feelings are justified. The problem is not the Church but the members. This is one of the major problems in the Church. Heavenly Father feels your loneliness & neglect & he has repeated told his leaders that you must come very 1st. He says the very basis for all religion is taking care of the widows & the fatherless. Everything else comes after that (you). The Prophets have said that the 1st responsibility of the Church (of Bishops, Stake Pres., G.A.'s., Relief Society Pres. & all members) is to protect, watch over & attend to the needs & fellowshiping of the widows & the fatherless (those who have been abandoned). Pres. Hinckley has said that protecting & caring for the needs of those who have been or who are abused or abandoned must come 1st.

The 1st thing I would do if I were you, & I am in a similar situation, is to learn this principle above & teach it to your leaders & family & friends. It's too bad we have to ask for help but most people will not see need until it happens to them, or they are asked. Many people will respond to your requests. Start by inviting people for a once a week group of some sort, either for education, physical activity, hobby, or just for talking, lunch, dinner, etc. There are so many worthwhile things that can be shared & taught in such gatherings.

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I'm married and have felt the same way since teenage years. Not sure what to do. I'm an odd duck and I know it. If I say what I think in Sunday School, it doesn't go far at all before the blank looks start. Even if I thought before I said it that it was right on target. Alas. Possibly marriage is the line, but differences people aren't comfortable with is more of a line I am familiar with. I try to mesh myself in with them, and I just can't do it. Yesterday, for instance, I was made aware unintentionally of a babysitting group that I am not a part of for a few people our age to get out on weekends. Have I thought to start one? Yes. Did I? No. Do I see all of them in the group at regular summer parties that I am not invited to at the house that neighbors my back yard? Yes. While I'm out back working in my garden? Yes. Do they look over and say hi? No. (What a relief, it's awkward enough already, but I have work to do) Do I grumble? As little as possible. I realize it is me they are uncomfortable with, and I know why. So I don't know if that helps, but my point of view is if there is a difference someone is uncomfortable with, you because of marriage status, me because of the eyes I see the world through and how that makes me see things, well, that's the road I'm on and I'm well aware when I go into blind mode and see what is in front of me and not get anything, I feel quite blind. So I can't join them, and it is oil and water. Am I part of the problem in this case with that attitude? Probably. We have a lot to learn. Bearing others' burdens is the instruction, but some burdens we just don't know how to bear, so we look at them blankly. Some are too heavy or strange for us to know how to pick up so directly. If that makes sense. I'm glad to see you're hanging in there. Keep it up!

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I'm married and have felt the same way since teenage years. Not sure what to do. I'm an odd duck and I know it. If I say what I think in Sunday School, it doesn't go far at all before the blank looks start.

Lol, I get the same problem. Some of my views on things can be quite controversial in nature and I get the same blank looks. Though I do still go to church, I have trouble just accepting some church rules - I have to question everything, which isn't the type of person who fits into an ideal LDS setting. This also partly explains why I left my mission 14 months prematurely - I had issues with certain rules I was given and was expected to obey without question. Again, not the ideal personality for a missionary. Oh course people now judge me based on both of those facts, that I left my mission early and that I always have to know why, even when it came from the first presidency. As much as the church deny this (as they don't do it officially), the membership is taught to effectively look down on those who didn't serve "honourable" missions by a lot of church teachers.

There is obviously much more than this as well. As people have said, anything which doesn't fit into an ideal lds family setting is shunned by a lot of the membership.

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I have felt the same way. But I realize it isn't the other people that are causing or making me have these feelings.... I am having them myself. For example, there was the subject of marriage one sacrament meeting. I sat there and watched all the couples, arms around each other.. and I felt so bad, sad, mad.......Eventually a member of the bishopric spoke and he talked about how he didn't find his companion until he was 40 something.. and what he said helped take away the hurt I was feeling.

So are people actively saying "we don't want you around because you have no spouse"... or is it more passive, such as Valentine's Day couple's dance that you cannot go to because you are single?

I see both single's activities and couple's activities in our stake. So I wonder if the couples feel badly because they are not invited to the single's activities?

I know it is hard. I sit there without a companion week after week. I know I have one... and I have been blessed to know who he is, where he is and be loved by him more than he has words to express. We just cannot be together for a while. So I hold to that when I sit there alone... because really I am not alone. Not only is my future husband and eternal companion there with me in spirit, but our Savior and Father in heaven never leaves our side.

Best wishes.

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Thanks guys for all your wisdom and support.

There are many things i want to pick up on which i shall do later but right now i just want to state that I am actually happy in my current status because i do have faith that my Heavenly Father will pave the way for me when the time is right and to be honest with you, I do have pang of missing something in sacrament but not for long and not often because i do actually enjoy being with all kinds of people. being single isnt as bad as some married people thing, not at my age and divorced anyway cos the last memory we have is a bad marriage that we are left to rewrite mental and emotional data on. so for me, personally, being single is a case of sugar and lemons.

Given a choice i would love to be married but given that i have gone thro divorce i'm more careful not to repeat that kind of episode.

I dont honestly think that anyone i know that is married would want to go to a singles activity!! LOL be whole point of our faith is families, being married etc.

My issue here is not about me as a person with my ward, its how they perceive me because i'm single without getting to know me or give me a chance!

Ok thats more than i wanted to say! I need to sleep so i'll bid you all a good day/evening and be back tomorrow to read again your wonderful words :)

Debs

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on divorced people in the church?

I have been a member for 9 years now and it was only when i was married that i was actually treated like a member. This is not just one ward but one ward and two branches, as good as they all were/are there is a significant difference in attitude and it toataly HACKS me off.

I would never dream of not including SA or divorced people in anything i organise, i would never avoid someone that is newly or otherwise separated/divorced/widowed and time and again I have actually quoted Pres. Hinckley on his counsel towards single people, espcially single mums.

Bottom line: Some people are sanctimonious, self-righteous dolts.

On the other hand, consider how bad they'd be if it weren't for the gospel.

Edited by Snow
fix quote feature
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Anyone who falls outside the stereotypical mormon family probably feels things like you do, in greater or lesser amounts.

I'm not divorced, but my wife is a non-member and we've never been able to have children (and now I'm too old and selfish...LOL). This seems to confuse or disturb other church members; they feel funny talking about their kids, and they can't try to set me up with some nice middle-aged LDS widow/single sister.

Or even more fun, imagine getting an invitation for you and your (non-member) spouse to attend the "Empty Nesters" monthly family home evening? That was good for a chuckle or two.

But Heavenly Father knows why we're there, and that's the most important thing. You'll end up doing just fine, despite some of our brothers and sisters who start talking without thinking.

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you guys are so insightful thank you for sharing so much.

i've had the opportunity this last few days to share many of these words and my own on this subject and i 'think' i might have given a few people something to think about....in a nice way!

i've now been asked to give a talk on life as a divorced mum. not a bad move in my opinion so i hope you guys dont mind if i use some of your words?

Debs

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you guys are so insightful thank you for sharing so much.

i've had the opportunity this last few days to share many of these words and my own on this subject and i 'think' i might have given a few people something to think about....in a nice way!

i've now been asked to give a talk on life as a divorced mum. not a bad move in my opinion so i hope you guys dont mind if i use some of your words?

Debs

Way to go ... personally I believe a direct assault is the best course. Years ago I belonged to a ward that every Sunday someone asked me if I was new ... this went on for 3 years and I didn't have HT or VT ... so I got up in testimony meeting, introduced myself, said I had been there for 3 years and had not had HT or Vt and shame on them for not filling their stewardship and that I was going to find out who my HT & VT were and call THEM ... guess you know that got results. I am also single (no little ones) ... sometimes it can be hard when folks act like we are somehow less than fulfilled ... just remeber the church is perfect the people aren't and then to coin a phrase from my sweet mother ... consider the source ... to me it is a learning experience ... when I start falling into the mold I remembr how I felt and give myself a swift kick back in line.

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so I got up in testimony meeting, introduced myself, said I had been there for 3 years and had not had HT or Vt and shame on them for not filling their stewardship and that I was going to find out who my HT & VT were and call THEM ... guess you know that got results.

That is fetchin' awesome.

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Way to go ... personally I believe a direct assault is the best course. Years ago I belonged to a ward that every Sunday someone asked me if I was new ... this went on for 3 years and I didn't have HT or VT ... so I got up in testimony meeting, introduced myself, said I had been there for 3 years and had not had HT or Vt and shame on them for not filling their stewardship and that I was going to find out who my HT & VT were and call THEM ... guess you know that got results. I am also single (no little ones) ... sometimes it can be hard when folks act like we are somehow less than fulfilled ... just remeber the church is perfect the people aren't and then to coin a phrase from my sweet mother ... consider the source ... to me it is a learning experience ... when I start falling into the mold I remembr how I felt and give myself a swift kick back in line.

hi

i actually quite vehemently spitted out a comment to my bishop and his counsellors a couple of weeks ago that 'this church sucks when you are single/divorced because we are the modern day lepers'. i didnt mean to say it, i dont even remember thinking it!! however afterwards i sat and thought, i wasnt far off the mark there.

i support every single/divorced/widowed person in this church and i know that even when the time comes for me to remarry i have been affected enough by my experience to go out of my way to fellowship anyone that isnt married, to me married people can still learn a lot from single people!

good for you to stand up and say what you said, that must have really shook up the ward!

debs

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Sometimes I think that married people aren't sure what to say to a single ... I don't know if it's the single life style or the two heads or what ... maybe they can't remember when they were single. What's really amazing is that we like to talk about the same things that they do ... well I can do without discussing changing diapers ... but basically it's the same. This is where the church (members) need to get a grip because this is not only happening to singles it's happening to new converts as well. Retention is not good in places .... if I didn't have the testimony I have and know the things I know I would have been down the road a long time ago. We are our brothers keeper. We cannot be so tied up in our lives that we forget those who need us. It hurts to be ignored or looked down on or worst of all pitied. That one really burns me. We need more singles in the church like you Debs who say what they think and mean it and don't really care whether they like it or not.

There were alot of people sliding under the seat when I did my shame on you routine ... I bet HT & VT went way up that month!!

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Hi Debs, I'm single and from the UK too. It's a shame you're made to feel the way you do within your ward. I was about to say that us singles are treated better in the ward I belong to, then I remembered that the person who took me back to church this time around, after a 20+ gap in attending, was a friend of mine from years ago when we were both 1st time mums, so it was easier for others within the ward to befriend me because of the ties I already had to the ward..also some people were still attending from when I last attended.

However, there are still couples in the ward whom I've never spoken to, can hardly picture who they are when somebody mentions their names to me, and presumably this is because I'm single and therefore don't automatically become a 'couples' friend..

I have been luckier on the help front, however. When I was investigating the church, just over a year ago, the Missionaries always asked if there were any jobs they could do for me, so they did one or two DIY jobs occasionally, and the gardening..I have been lucky to have regular VT, but not HTs, and they VTs have also asked if there is anything that other members could do to help me out, such as asking the male youth if they could come out in the spring/summer time to help with the garden etc. I haven't helped others out practically, as I'm not very skilled, but have been able to help some members with their family history, which I've been informed is enough for me to feel that I have repaid the help I'm receiving.

I liked the suggestion that you start to invite members to your home for various events, recently the women in our ward, married and single, have started a bookclub which is meeting in 1 member's house for the time being, with the wish that eventually it will rotate to meet at other members' houses too..perhaps something like this could help you to mix more with all kinds of people in the ward, good luck!

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Awww Debs, I'm sorry. Come to my ward and you'll see what it feels like to be in a good one. I'm divorced as well and I've never been made to feel an outcast. I have great VTs and home teachers who I'm absolutely positive can move mountains using faith alone. So come on out! Or if you can't, all I can say is be the type of person you wish everyone else was :D

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