Swimsuit Question for the Young women

[Janice]

Your clothing expresses who you are.

Indeed. Thus, if the clothing is not appropriate, the problem is not the clothing.

[Janice]

...if you have to ask if a swimsuit is appropriate....it probably isn't.

If you have to ask if a swimsuit is appropriate, you must not understand what "appropriate" is.

Focus on the person, not the clothing.

Janice

[Just_A_Guy]

Hi Janice.

I find a lot of what you write intriguing. But when you cite President Benson as saying that

Christ changes men, who then change their environment.

What does that say about the girl (or guy) who does not change her outward environment, in the face of repeated requests from the Lord's earthly representatives that (s)he do so?

[Janice]

Hi Janice.

I find a lot of what you write intriguing. But when you cite President Benson as saying that

What does that say about the girl (or guy) who does not change her outward environment, in the face of repeated requests from the Lord's earthly representatives that (s)he do so?

I suppose I would say that this person's heart has not changed, and what this person needs is more love, more understanding, and more patience.

The temptation, of course, is to force such a person into outward compliance. "Oh YEAH!" We want to say out of frustration... "If you won't obey willingly, then I will FORCE you to obey!"

I confess I have been guilty of this with my own kids. If, after asking them repeatedly to clean their room, it remains an unholy pigsty, I am tempted to drag them by the ear lobe, chuck them into their pig slop, scream, "AND DON'T COME OUT UNTIL IT'S CLEAN" and then bar the door shut from the outside. Doing this would bring a certain degree of temporary satisfaction, but of course would only make things worse in the long run.

After I was married for a while my dad told me something about my mom that I never knew.... or had forgotten. When my older siblings were young my mom had been "a screamer" as my dad puts it. When things were not going right, she tended to raise her voice, scream, and shout. My dad confessed that he often wished he had a "MOM" remote control with a big giant "SHUT THE HELL UP!" button right in the middle of it, and when mom would get in one of these moods, he could just push that button and make it all go away.

But, he told me, the real solution came in increasing his love towards her when she got in these moods. Hugs went a long ways. Us kids, he told us, were great at picking up on these queues and doing like wise. It did not happen overnight, but eventually, mom was no longer "a screamer".

When my kids rooms remain a mess after being asked repeatedly to clean it up, my preferred solution is to crank the volume on one of the High School Musical sound tracks, go into their rooms with them, and then clean their rooms with them while dancing and laughing and having a great time.

And, when my oldest daughter asked the inevitable question, "What kind of swim suit should I buy", my preferred answer was, "I honestly don't care. I know you are a modest girl and that the suit you choose will reflect that."

-- I have no idea if I addressed your question or not, Just_a_Guy. I sorta went off on my own little tangent. What would I say about such a person? I would say, "love them to death, and do not try to change their behavior!"

Janice

[Dravin]

Clothing does not make a person modest or immodest.

See, this I disagree with. If you are wandering around town naked you are immodest doesn't matter what your attitude is (though I suppose it could be argued walking around town naked says alot about your attitude). I understand your concept and agree that one can be immodest while wearing modest clothing its just the opposite doesn't apply. To be modest both parts (clothing and atittude) must be satisfied, a surfeit of one does not make up for a dearth of the other.

[Janice]

See, this I disagree with. If you are wandering around town naked you are immodest doesn't matter what your attitude is (though I suppose it could be argued walking around town naked says alot about your attitude). I understand your concept and agree that one can be immodest while wearing modest clothing its just the opposite doesn't apply. To be modest both parts (clothing and atittude) must be satisfied, a surfeit of one does not make up for a dearth of the other.

Hi Darvin,

Thanks for your input. Before I say anything else, I want to say first of all that I think you and I agree more then you think. Please know this:

I am not advocating that people wear immodest clothing!

Whenever this topic comes up, and whenever I express my point of view, people always seem to think that I am saying it's okay to wear immodest clothing. This is *not* what I am saying. Not all, not even close. I love modest clothing, and I love to see people (women, men, boys, girls) wearing modest clothing.

If someone is walking around town (in most places in the world) naked I would expect they are mentally ill, but I see your point. Let's take a more realistic example... a real life example:

There is a seventeen year old LDS teenage girl... she is sweet and innocent and pure and chaste. She attends seminary 100%, has her scripture mastery verses down pat, pays a full tithe on her $5.50 part time job, never dated or kissed or hardly even held hands until she was sixteen, watches all of Conference every six months and loves it, reads the New Era cover to cover ever month... you get the idea. It's not a show, it's genuine. You can see it in her eyes.

This young girl has always wanted to be in a play but has always been to shy to try out. She hears that her high school is putting on Guys and Dolls, and after mustering courage for weeks, she tries out. She is elated beyond words when she lands not only just any small part, but the FEMALE LEAD!! Her friends congratulate her... people she does not even know congratulate her... she is in heaven, walking on a cloud!

Then one day she comes home with all of the various costumes she is going to wear throughout the play so her mom can help her adjust them and do some alterations. One of the costumes, which she will wear for a dance line, is basically a one piece swim suit with an open back and fish neck stockings. The suit itself mildly pushes the limits of what some ultra conservative Mormons would call a "modest" one piece swim suit, but nothing that would really raise too many eyebrows if it were worn at a church pool or beach party.

What, as this girls mother (or father) would you do?

It just so happens that this girls mother is one of these ultra conservative Mormon mothers. She objected, very strongly, to her daughter wearing such a suit on stage, and combine it with the fish net stockings.... no daughter of hers was ever going to be seen on stage dressed as such a slut. Not only could her daughter not wear this outfit, but she could not be involved in any play that would ask young girls to wear such outfits while dancing on stage.

The daughter pleaded, begged, cried. The dance itself was not immoral or immodest. It was a routine dance / kick line. The story was not immoral or immodest. It's a cute, fun story. No avail, the mother's mind was set. Her daughter would have no part of this play.

It's my opinion that this mom way, way over reacted. Her daughter is a *good* girl... the poster child if there ever was one for LDS modesty, morality, chastity, and goodness. Being in this play would not, even one little whit, have unraveled her innate modesty. She is a modest girl, and wearing a swim suit with fishnet stockings on stage would not have made her even a little immodest.

That's just my opinion, of course. I am fully aware that some people (like her mom) don't see eye to eye with me.

It's been many years since this story happened, and this girl (my niece) is now a mother herself. Her beautiful children, like her, sparkle and radiate with happiness and goodness. Looking back on this incident she still views it as a dark stain on her otherwise happy relationship with her mother. The pain of such an incredible missed opportunity still lingers.

This, and many many stories, incidents, and observations like it, is why I believe that a focus on the person is more important then a focus on the clothing. Wear modest clothing as an overall habit, Yes! Fill your wardrobe with modest clothing, Yes! Yes yes yes, I am on board with all of it. Apple and Connie and Pam quote "For the Strength of Youth" as if they are proving me wrong... I agree with everything it says!!

All I am saying is this: PLEASE PLEASE look at the person and not what they are wearing. Look at the heart, and not the clothing. If the clothing is immodest, 1) do not judge, and 2) love. Teach a person to be a modest person, and let them make their own choices on what clothes to wear. They will choose the right.

:)

Janice

Edited March 31, 2009 by Janice

[Dravin]

I am not advocating that people wear immodest clothing!

Oh, I didn't think you were. I almost put in an aside to my post about how I think you get misconstrued due to how you present yourself, I guess I shouldn't have opted not to. I think the issue is that people talk about modesty you pipe up with, "It isn't just about clothing!" and people see, "It isn't about clothing!" before you know it everyone has been pigeonholed and everyone is arguing against each other's strawmen. Them screaming, "Clothing does matter!" and you, "Behavior can make something otherwise modest immodest!"

Then one day she comes home with all of the various costumes she is going to wear throughout the play so her mom can help her adjust them and do some alterations. One of the costumes, which she will wear for a dance line, is basically a one piece swim suit with an open back and fish neck stockings. The suit itself mildly pushes the limits of what some ultra conservative Mormons would call a "modest" one piece swim suit, but nothing that would really raise too many eyebrows if it were worn at a church pool or beach party.

Well, the thing is swimming suits are considered inmodest if you aren't swimming in them. My understanding of modest clothing is that it covers your garments or would do so should you be wearing them. Now obviously the church has voiced that clothing in one situation since it is suited to the performance of a task is exempt from the usual standards nobody thinks twice when somebody duffs their garments and puts on a sleeveless jersey or a wifebeater to play basketball but such would otherwise fall into the immodest category, same with just being in swimming trunks. So the question is all about just what is considered acceptable for dance.

As for what I would do, I think part would have to do with the dance but my gut reaction is no. That said if it was truly that imporant to my child I'd be willing to pray about it.

It's my opinion that this mom way, way over reacted. Her daughter is a *good* girl... the poster child if there ever was one for LDS modesty, morality, chastity, and goodness. Being in this play would not, even one little whit, have unraveled her innate modesty. She is a modest girl, and wearing a swim suit with fishnet stockings on stage would not have made her even a little immodest.

Of course a *bad* girl assuming she didn't assume a suggestive demeanor would be just as immodest/modest. If good LDS girl went out and slept with the football team and thought dirty thoughts all day long it wouldn't change the effect the outfit had on her modesty (either neutral or negative depending on how you view it), what would do it is if either of them gave an immitation lap dance during the play which would adjust the modesty 'quotient'. I'm not sure I'm communicating things very well.

Lets say action A is a modesty quotient of 5, lets say the suit is -1, so doing action A with suit leaves one at 4. Now lets say action B is modesty quotient -5 and lets say a nice dress is +2 the end result is -3. That having been said people have different views of just where the line is drawn, a burka is more modest than a t-shirt and jeans but nobody (outside of some fundementalist) is going to call the t-shirt and jeans immodest (assuming they aren't skin tight).

Looking back on this incident she still views it as a dark stain on her otherwise happy relationship with her mother. The pain of such an incredible missed opportunity still lingers..

Hopefully this is fairly recent or there is some hyperbole at work here.

All I am saying is this: PLEASE PLEASE look at the person and not what they are wearing. Look at the heart, and not the clothing.

Change heart to actions/behavior and I'm with you, a hooker in the same dress as Molly Mormon walking down the street in the exact same manor (i.e. not trying to poledance without a pole) as aforementioned Molly Mormon is equally modest. Yes I'm aware there are aspects of modesty in thought but that's an internal matter, Bubba thinking of porn walking down the street doesn't effect whether his outfit is modest in the slightest.

[sensibility]

Here's my thoughts on modesty, not directed at any particular person . . .

I think a lot of times our understanding of modesty is unfortunately coloured by Protestant theology regarding bodies; we see them as a necessary evil which we will someday shed to ascend to a higher state of bodiless being. It's a very entrenched idea in religious culture; even the word 'carnal' actually means 'pertaining to the body', or 'fleshy'; we choose to use it to mean 'evil'.

That'd be all well and good if not for the fact that it's exactly opposite to our doctrine--bodies are sacred and we will eventually get them back and keep them for eternity. This isn't just an incidental idea to the concept of modesty. It's the fundamental concept of modesty. We aren't modest because we're in danger of causing someone else to have bad thoughts if we dress immodestly; we're modest because our bodies are sacred gifts from God, to be shared with our spouses and no-one else. They're temples. None of us would say that it would be fine to expose certain parts of the temple ceremony as long as we meant well, were obedient in everything else, or the people around us would not have evil thoughts because of it. We know it's unacceptable because we've been told to hold those ceremonies sacred. Well, our bodies are sacred too.

I think we spend too much time trying to come up with contexts where it's okay to show our bodies and too little time thinking about the fact that we've been entrusted with something sacred and instructed to protect it. When we're committed to this principle, the modest clothes do follow--but too many people come at it from the angle that we [subtext: women] dress modestly to prevent other people [men] from lusting. That's very much the lower principle.

Edited March 31, 2009 by sensibility
clarity

[Janice]

Splendid, Sensibility. Well said. Well said indeed.

[Janice]

Dravin, Thanks for your post. I don't have time to respond in detail right now, but I'm on board with everything you've said. As you say, you could have two women walking down the street wearing hideously revealing clothing and walking in a suggestive manner, one a life long hooker, and the other life long molly mormon... and for all practical purposes, they are both equally immodest. My take is that molly mormon would never do such a thing in the first place.

When teaching our kids the principle of modesty, don't start with modest clothing. Start with being a modest person.

Janice

[pam]

I will stick with my opinion that being modest in thought and modest in clothing go hand in hand.

[applepansy]

I agree Pam. I can't imagine teaching half the concept. I've seen too many girls who become immodest in dress or action when only half the concept is taught.

I think its important to pay attention to our leaders. They wouldn't be specific in their counsel if it wasn't important.

It becomes a matter of obedience.

applepansy

[john doe]

I don't know. If I was participating in a nudist colony, would I be modest as long as I kept good thoughts? What about if the other participants had immodest thoughts, would that make my (lack of) clothes immodest even though I am thinking modestly?

[Dravin]

My take is that molly mormon would never do such a thing in the first place.

Most certainly if one was truly Molly Mormon.

[Aside]Of course one can appear one way and be another. The gal who acts goody two-shoes but NCMOs like there is no tomorrow (or would that be an infinite amount of tomorrows?).[/aside]

When teaching our kids the principle of modesty, don't start with modest clothing. Start with being a modest person.

Janice

Well, the thing is kids can comprehend, "Cover up your body its sacred." at lot sooner than they can comprehend, "Don't act the whore/show off." Of course part of being a modest person is wearing modest clothing, so its kinda like saying teach them A+B=C not B+A=C. *shrug*

You point is taken though, don't neglect all of what makes one modest in exclusive focus on 1/2 (or what ever fraction you prefer) of it.

[applepansy]

Well, the thing is kids can comprehend, "Cover up your body its sacred." at lot sooner than they can comprehend, "Don't act the whore/show off." Of course part of being a modest person is wearing modest clothing, so its kinda like saying teach them A+B=C not B+A=C. *shrug*

You point is taken though, don't neglect all of what makes one modest in exclusive focus on 1/2 (or what ever fraction you prefer) of it.

Dravin, you make an excellent point and I agree. My daughter did not wear sleeveless anything even as an infant. Now she's 21...she never goes sleeveless by her choice. I took a lot of criticism from in-laws....but now, my dauther is the only grand-daughter holding onto her values. The others are compromising and its very sad.

Janice, I understand your point. I learned it as "Pretty is as Pretty DOES", I agree our actions need to match our hearts. When teaching children about anything the simplest most effective way is usually the best. When teaching children modesty, as Dravin said "Cover up your body, its sacred." is easiest for a 1yo, 2yo, 5yo etc. to understand. As they get older you explain why. Its very important to teach by example. "Cover up, your body is sacred" doesn't need to be taught in a way that results in shame. Our bodies are temples and as such we should be thankful for them, as well as protect them.

I would like to point out that if you teach A+B=C or B+A=C it will probably be ok as long as the an example is set for kids to follow. However, If something is inadvertantly missed in teaching all of A or all of B, the child will never comprehend C. They will look for the same loop holes the people who set the examples look for. (A minus)+(B plus) is a risky way to get to C.

Children learn more by example than any other method. They'll even learn things we didn't think we were teaching.

applepansy

[LittleWyvern]

Well, the thing is kids can comprehend, "Cover up your body its sacred." at lot sooner than they can comprehend, "Don't act the whore/show off." Of course part of being a modest person is wearing modest clothing, so its kinda like saying teach them A+B=C not B+A=C. *shrug*

I think the point was to teach the general concept of modesty before trying to teach the specific implementations of modesty. If one understand what modesty means in a general sense, it will be incredibly easy to derive what modesty means in specific situations: such as dress, actions, words, body language, etc.... even situations that you haven't specifically taught yet! Using your example, it's a bit like teaching what the + and = do before trying to teach A+B=C. If the + and = signs are understood, then not only is A+B=C natural but D+E=F and G+H=I.

[applepansy]

Little Wyvern, Its a well known fact that children learn visually. Even babies can learn modesty. The A, B, C's are for the parents or teachers.

Apply "visually" to modesty and you get dress modesty as specifically explained in For the Strength of Youth, True to the Faith, and numerous conference talks.

applepansy

[Janice]

The clothing we wear reflects who we are. Looking at someone who dresses immodestly and thinking, "someone should teach that person to dress modestly" is like looking in the mirror and thinking, "I look fat... I should buy a new mirror."

It's the person who needs to change, not the reflection.

Its a well known fact that children learn visually

Children watch how we act, listen to what we say, and model our behavior long, long before they mimic the clothing we wear.

My point: The person we are is more important then the clothing we wear. Start by teaching to be a good person. If and when clothing becomes an issue, then make a few minor adjustments, but chances are you won't ever need to.

Janice

Edited March 31, 2009 by Janice

[applepansy]

Children watch how we act, listen to what we say, and model our behavior long, long before they mimic the clothing we wear.

My point: The person we are is more important then the clothing we wear. Start by being a good person.

Janice

Janice, why can't modesty and being a good person go hand-in-hand?

applepansy

[Jasmin]

Swimwear - Mod Retro Indie Clothing & Vintage Clothes

This site has really cute modest vintage inspired one pieces. IMO of course and I am not lds but a very modest Christian.

[Janice]

I've seen too many girls who become immodest in dress or action when only half the concept is taught.

I'd say that the problem here is that nobody taught them to BE modest. The clothing these girls choose to wear is only a symptom, and not the problem itself.

Focus on the person.

Janince

[Janice]

Janice, why can't modesty and being a good person go hand-in-hand?

applepansy

Wow, I am really confused. Did I ever say they couldn't? In fact, I think I've been trying to say this entire thread that modesty MEANS being a good person.

Janice

[Janice]

Janice, why can't modesty and being a good person go hand-in-hand?

applepansy

Ok... I just read and re-read your question, Apple, trying to make sense out of it, and something occurred to me. Please tell me if I've got this all wrong:

Wen you say, "why can't modesty and being a good person go hand-in-hand?", what you mean to say is, "why can't dressing modesty and being a good person go hand-in-hand?"

Which leads me to believe that in your mind, modesty is defined by how one dresses; that clothing is the sum of modesty; that modesty equals modest clothing.

I'm just trying to make sense of your question, Apple... please forgive me if I am putting words in your mouth. Help me understand.

Janice

Edited March 31, 2009 by Janice

[applepansy]

Focus on the person.[/qutoe]

Always focus on the person first. . . but teach the whole concept.

I think I've been tryiing to say this entire thread that modesty MEANS being a good person.

Modesty also means dressing modestly. The two go hand-in-hand. You can't have true modesty without both sides.

applepansy

[Janice]

Ok, with four posts in a row I am starting to talk to myself!

There are, perhaps, two ways you can approach the subject of modesty:

A: Your body is sacred, so cover up

B: You are a sacred person. The way to honor and respect your divine heratige is by respecting yourself and respecting others. "Be grateful. Be smart. Be clean. Be true. Be humble. Be prayerful."

In my mind, A is a shallow outside-in approach, while B is a more complete inside-out approach. When B is taught and learned, proper clothing is second nature. Sure, a few gentle clothing reminders and pointers may be needed along the way, but all they are is gentle reminders and pointers.

Without exception, every young girl I have known who consistently dressed immodestly has much deeper issues then their choice in clothing... they have a serious problem loving themselves. The answer is NOT to give them a lesson on how to dress. The answer is to teach them to love and respect themselves, and the way to do this is to love and respect them, not to judge them and tell them to change their clothes.

Change the mirror? Or change the person?

Janice

Edited March 31, 2009 by Janice