Swimsuit Question for the Young women


dlk08
 Share

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 189
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

It's a question of focus: Do you focus on the clothing? Or do you focus on the person?

Is modesty a clothing-based principle? Or is it modesty a being-based principle? Which comes first? If you teach modest clothing, will whole-modesty then follow? Or if you teach whole-modesty, will modest clothing then follow?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's a question of focus: Do you focus on the clothing? Or do you focus on the person?

No it isn't a question of focus ... You always focus on the person. The principle you teach is both sides of modesty - dress AND behavior/attitude.

Is modesty a clothing-based principle? Or is it modesty a being-based principle? Which comes first? If you teach modest clothing, will whole-modesty then follow? Or if you teach whole-modesty, will modest clothing then follow?

Neither comes first. They should come together. I prefer to teach both in conjunction, whether its my children or my neices/nephews, or the youth at church.

This is not an either/or. When I talk about modesty I'm referring to both modesty in dress and modesty in attitude/behavior. Focusing on one or the other leaves half the principle out.

applepansy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's a question of focus: Do you focus on the clothing? Or do you focus on the person?

Is modesty a clothing-based principle? Or is it modesty a being-based principle? Which comes first? If you teach modest clothing, will whole-modesty then follow? Or if you teach whole-modesty, will modest clothing then follow?

Well let's see. Focus on the clothing or focus on the person. Visually the first thing you notice about a person is the clothing. We are taught even at a younger age that when going in for an interview first impressions are always important. Very difficult to get past that if all you see is body hanging out. Many times our first and only chance to get an impression of someone is by the way they dress.

Therefore it's always important to make sure you are dressed appropriately and modestly because that may be the only impression someone gets of you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's a question of focus: Do you focus on the clothing? Or do you focus on the person?

Is modesty a clothing-based principle? Or is it modesty a being-based principle? Which comes first? If you teach modest clothing, will whole-modesty then follow? Or if you teach whole-modesty, will modest clothing then follow?

That's a tough one...some of the most modests people I have ever known were nudists.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Focusing on one or the other leaves half the principle out.

Well, I guess this is where we'll have to agree to disagree, Apple :) I prefer to teach my kids and my girls at church to be modest people first and foremost. It's been my experience that the clothing then falls into place on it's own. If and when a mild suggestion about clothing here or there is needed, then by all means offer it with love. But to put clothing on the same level as being... well, that just seems a little out of whack to me.

Janice

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Visually the first thing you notice about a person is the clothing.

Pam, from the very little I know about you, I'm not surprised the first thing you would notice about someone is their clothing.

Janice

Edited by Janice
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pam, from the very little I know about you, I'm not surprised the first thing you would notice about someone is their clothing.

Janice

Of course visual presentation is the first thing Pam notices - it's the first thing everybody notices. Someone's understanding of Hume's A Treatise of Human Nature requires a bit longer to take stock of.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Modesty isn't just about clothing, but one's clothing falls under the 'jurisdiction', if you will, of one's own modesty. Modesty is more than skin deep.

I agree with pam: oftentimes one of the first things a person notices about another is their clothing- especially artistic and visually-based people.

And I'm curious, Fiannan: would you explain how the nudists you know are also modest? And how they are, in fact, some of the most modest people you know?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My take is that Molly Mormon would never do such a thing in the first place.

Janice

Wonder if there is a Molly Mormon genetic marker that could be responsible for this overt modesty.

Of course if it is the case of nurture instead of nature, perhaps we could conclude that it is the clothes alone that induce this desired morality.

Then again, maybe it is neither of these two items and that dress itself operates independently from virtue.

:)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well let's see. Focus on the clothing or focus on the person. Visually the first thing you notice about a person is the clothing. We are taught even at a younger age that when going in for an interview first impressions are always important. Very difficult to get past that if all you see is body hanging out. Many times our first and only chance to get an impression of someone is by the way they dress.

Therefore it's always important to make sure you are dressed appropriately and modestly because that may be the only impression someone gets of you.

Perhaps we should be more Christ like.

7 But the Lord said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, I guess this is where we'll have to agree to disagree, Apple :) I prefer to teach my kids and my girls at church to be modest people first and foremost. It's been my experience that the clothing then falls into place on it's own. If and when a mild suggestion about clothing here or there is needed, then by all means offer it with love. But to put clothing on the same level as being... well, that just seems a little out of whack to me.

Janice

It does't matter how thin you slice this coin it still has two sides. I have known for a long time that you and I would come to "agree to disagree" on several topics. I respect your right to teach your children as you see fit. I hope there are other leaders who are teaching the words of our Prophets and leaders to the YW in your ward. I hope their parents are paying attention.

What amazes me about these conversations is when you feel backed into a corner or picked on, you start judging. (So much for your statements in the judging others thread.)

Pam, from the very little I know about you, I'm not surprised the first thing you would notice about someone is their clothing.

Janice

Pam made a statement about a common practice in our society and the world at large and you judge her. ^_^ Afterall, as you said, you don't know her.

I realize you often feel judged here. Your words have been judged and with many here have fallen short of the mark. I won't be convinced that immodest clothing is appropriate, ever! Proper clothing and proper behavior go together. They can't be separated. You can't successfully have one without the other. This is a principle and principles never change. And I realize you won't be convinced otherwise.

So, how do those reading this thread decide which side of this coin is the right side? By listenting to what the Prophets and GAs have said repeatedly and asking Heavenly Father in prayer.

What our prophets believe about modesty is well documented and posted within this thread. If you're at odds with their statements I would suggest taking it up with your Heavenly Father in prayer, instead of trying to get others to agree with you.

As for me, I choose to follow the Prophet.

applepansy

Edited by applepansy
spelling
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I won't be convinced that immodest clothing is appropriate, ever!

(deep sigh)

I really feel like you have some sort of prejudice against me and that you are incapable of seeing what I'm really trying to say. I have never, ever, not once, not ever said that immodest clothing is appropriate.

Proper clothing and proper behavior go together. They can't be separated.

As kids in my class at school say: Duh! Once again Apple you have totally failed to grasp my point. I'm not going to say it again because it would not do any good.

What our prophets believe about modesty is well documented and posted within this thread. If you're at odds with their statements I would suggest taking it up with your Heavenly Father in prayer, instead of trying to get others to agree with you.

I'm not ad odds with anything the Prophets have said. Thank you, however, for your suggestion to pray. It's always a good one.

Janice

Edited by Janice
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Modesty isn't just about clothing, but one's clothing falls under the 'jurisdiction', if you will, of one's own modesty. Modesty is more than skin deep.

Well said. My concern is that when we (as a Church) teach modesty, the only thing we teach is modest clothing, and we leave out modest being.

I agree with pam: oftentimes one of the first things a person notices about another is their clothing

I guess I would say that this, then, is a sad reflection on humanity. Of course we notice the clothing that people wear. It's impossible not to. Yet I think we aught to try very hard to look past the clothing and see the person.

Janice

Edited by Janice
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guys and Gals,

Despite my best efforts to communicate clearly, I'm obviously failing. Let me try and sum up my thoughts on this topic in one, precise statement:

What I am NOT saying: It's okay to wear immodest clothing, and we don't need to teach our youth to dress modestly.

What I AM saying: When we teach the principle of modesty, I feel it's important to teach ALL of modesty, and not just part of it. Proper clothing is part of modesty, and it NEEDS to be taught, but proper clothing is only one small part of modesty. The principle of modesty encompass so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so much more then just clothing, and when our kids understand ALL of modesty, then picking the right clothing will be a natural bi-product.

My Concern: I fear that within our Victorian, conservative, Christian society, modesty has been reduced to being only about clothing. I fear that when we teach modesty, we only teach modest clothing. I fear that when we hyper-focus on modest clothing and ignore modest being we do our youth a great dis-service.

My Hope: What I want very much to accomplish is to crack open the shell into which we seem to have stuffed modesty. I want us to remember that modesty is about more then the clothing we wear. When we teach modesty to your youth I would like to see us focus first and foremost on being modest, and to include the lessons on modest clothing as an important sub chapter of modesty, but not as the only element of modesty.

Janice

Edited by Janice
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Janice,

Your point: Accept the person first. Teach the person modesty in behavior first and foremost.

My point: Accept the person first. Teach the person modesty in appearance and behavior. I will not separate the principle into two pieces.

applepansy

Edited by applepansy
Deleted remarks. . . Dang! I got sucked in again.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Janice,

Your point: Accept the person first. Teach the person modesty in behavior first and foremost.

My point: Accept the person first. Teach the person modesty in appearance and behavior. I will not separate the principle into two pieces.

In another thread on modesty (Immodest Dance Outfits) you refused to accept that For the Strength of Youth and True to the Faith are words from our Prophet. You used the word "abhor" to describe how you felt about the teachings of our leaders on this subject.

Which is it? You follow our Prophet or you abhor his teachings about girls dressing modestly? I'm confused.

applepansy

I'm not sure why you are so insistent at picking a fight with me. Did I harm you in some other life?

On For the Strength of Youth and True to the Faith , I believe I said I don't accept them as canonized scripture, which they are not. I view them as a great guide which we aught to seriously consider, and based on what they teach, I think we then aught to use our God given brains in conjunction with personal inspiration and come up with our own idea on how we live our lives.

Janice

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Janice,

Your point: Accept the person first. Teach the person modesty in behavior first and foremost.

My point: Accept the person first. Teach the person modesty in appearance and behavior. I will not separate the principle into two pieces.

applepansy

Ok, you edited your post while I was responding. :) Thank you, but once again, you have not understood what I am trying to say.

My point: Accept the person first. Teach the person modesty in being first and foremost.

Being is different then behavior. Our outward behavior is the result of who we are on the inside.

What I am trying to do, Apple, is make modesty an INNER principle, not an OUTWARD principle. The "outside" is a reflection of the "inside". If the reflection is bad, don't fix the mirror, fix the person. If the reflection is good, so is the person.

Christ works from the inside out. He changes people's hearts and minds and desires. When that transformation takes place, the outward manifestation naturally follows.

When we begin teaching modesty with clothing, we are doing it the wrong way (in my opinion). Modest clothing is important, but it's not where lessons on modesty should begin.

Janice

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Our church leaders, when teaching modesty, do tend to focus a great deal on the clothing aspect of it. I'm sorry this bothers you. However, i've never ever seen them leave out the other aspects of modesty. They always bring them in and tie them together because that is how they belong. They cannot be separated.

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Modesty: Reverence for the Lord

"When we know who we are—children of God—and understand that our outward appearance affects our inward spirituality and ultimately our behavior, we show respect for God, for ourselves, and for those around us by being modest in dress and behavior.

My father, who was an artist, helped me understand this concept when I was a boy. He drew me a picture of a knight in armor and labeled the critical elements of “the whole armor of God” as described in the scriptures (see Ephesians 6:11–17; D&C 27:15–18). That picture hung in my bedroom and became a reminder of what we need to do to remain true and faithful to gospel principles.

Just as we are to “put on” the armor of God, we are to “put on” our clothes as protection for us and others. Clothing ourselves with modest dress and modest actions—mercy, kindness, humility, patience, and charity—will invite the companionship of the Spirit and will positively affect those around us (see Colossians 3:12, 14).

Are we determined to be Saints in the kingdom of God, or are we more comfortable in the ways of the world? Ultimately, how we dress will greatly influence our obedience to commandments and devotion to covenants. Dressing modestly will guide our attitudes and behavior as we conduct our daily lives. In time our dress may even determine who our friends and associates may be, thus influencing whether we live worthy of enjoying the blessings of happiness in this world and for eternity.

It is my fervent prayer that we will hold to our covenants and be modest in our dress and behavior as we attend church, visit the temple, and go about our daily lives. As we do so, we will show respect for ourselves, our parents, our Church leaders, and others, and we will show reverence to our Heavenly Father and invite the Spirit to be with us always."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What I am trying to do, Apple, is make modesty an INNER principle, not an OUTWARD principle. The "outside" is a reflection of the "inside". If the reflection is bad, don't fix the mirror, fix the person. If the reflection is good, so is the person.

Christ works from the inside out. He changes people's hearts and minds and desires. When that transformation takes place, the outward manifestation naturally follows.

When we begin teaching modesty with clothing, we are doing it the wrong way (in my opinion). Modest clothing is important, but it's not where lessons on modesty should begin.

Janice

Where I disagree is that "modesty is BOTH an inner and outward principle. You can't slice it in half. I agree that teaching modesty through clothing alone is half the principle. Modesty in clothing is just as important as the other half (modest in behavior). If you don't teach both together you're missing half of the principle. If modesty in dress wasn't important there wouldn't be so much emphasis given it by our Prophet and GAs.

Christ does work from the inside out. He teaches principles while loving a person into repentance. I can't find and don't remember where Christ taught half of a principle.

You are entitled to your opinion. So are the rest of us.

Respectfully,

applepansy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share