Swimsuit Question for the Young women

[Fiannan]

Hmmm.........not Bytor, he goes shirtless. All the ladies having those sinful thoughts about Bytor's awesome abs, will just have to repent.

Not sure how the moderators would react if you placed your pick here. I also could post links to topless obama, Putin and Sarkozi but then that might upset someone.

[john doe]

Not sure how the moderators would react if you placed your pick here. I also could post links to topless obama, Putin and Sarkozi but then that might upset someone.

You're right, the main reason we wouldn't allow those pics is specifically because we're afraid they would turn YOU on!!! :lol:

[Berean]

Sorry I am with Bytor...the beach is the one place I am okay with a man being without a shirt...and I would object to a shirtless Obama or anyone else on this forum as it is not a beach although I do not think I would be ok with beach pics on the forum unless people are modest. What about certain sports? Before I was LDS I ran track in high school and on really hot days we were required to wear the tank top and short shorts with no spandex under the shorts (my preference) and no t-shirt under the shirt. Maybe if I had been LDS he would have allowed it but my coach saw it as a safety issue.

[Snow]

Everything I've ever read (from an LDS standpoint, anyways) suggests he was advocating it for missionaries. You disagree? Why?

Because Paul's second letter to the Corinthians (1 Cor) wasn't written to missionaries. It was written to the followers of the Jesus movement in Corinth - who weren't missionaries. Specifically the issue was that some members of the movement were engaging in sexual immorality. At least one guy was sleeping with his stepmom. Just as troubling was the attitude of some of the Jesus movement followers that condone such behavior... a kind of arrogance that since they were now "in Christ" they could get away with such immorality.

You said they "advised against killing animals", without qualifying it, and then hinted that any use of dead animals was violating their counsel. Your actual quote was:

Joseph Smith, Hyrum Smith, Lorenzo Snow, Joseph F. Smith all advised against killing animals - I'm going to guess that you regularly wear and/or use parts of dead animals killed just so their parts could be used by folks like you.

The general gist is that they taught that the needless killing of animals was wrong - the key being on "needless." Joseph Smith retranslated Genesis to say that ...surely, blood shall not be shed, only for meat, to save your lives; and the blood of every beast will I require at your hands."

In preaching the WoW Hyrum taught that members should spare the life of animals.

" Elder Snow "was convinced that the killing of animals when unnecessary was wrong and sinful, and that it was not right to neglect one part of the Word of Wisdom and be too strenuous in regard to other parts." (Journal History, 5 May 1893, pp. 2-3)

"I do not believe any man should kill animals or birds unless he 'needs' them for food...I think it is wicked for men to thirst in their souls to kill almost everything which possess life. It is wrong, and I have been surprised at prominent men who I have seen whose very souls seemed to be athirst for the shedding of animal blood. They go off hunting deer, antelope, elk, anything they can find, and what for? 'Just for the fun of it!' I am a firm believer... in the simple words of one of the poets: 'Take not away the life you cannot give, for all things have an equal right to live'." (Juvenile Instructor 48:309)

Interestingly, in the last quote, a prophet and President preaches against sport killing and yet the Church owns and operates a sport killing business... all the which goes to show that prophets and apostles have many opinions but the Church does not necessarily think that ignoring the opinions of prophets is, in and of itself, is a sin. God Himself isn't saying anything publically.

Whereas your point was what? That they weren't? Or that a little sin is OK?

No point other that YOU say it was a sin but obviously God or The Church either don't agree or think it is a minor point.

But you did pretend that you were the only one who held it.

A reasonable reader might have recognized deliberate hyperbole when he read it.

And I was kind of hoping you'd provide a source so that your argument could be fully evaluated.

He said it all the time (more hyperbole in case you find it confusing), but he did say it a lot: Some of you will recall that in almost every general conference, I have encouraged our Latter-day Saints to mend their fences; to fix up and paint up, or else tear down, their old barns; to trim their hedges; and to repair the garage. In many places throughout the world we have had reports of those who have repaired and repainted, restored and improved. We are greatly heartened by these responses. As the Lord said, it does indeed "please the eye and . . . gladden the heart" (D&C 59:18). "On My Honor" SPENCER W. KIMBALL, BYU Devotional 1978.

Piercings of the body (in context of a discussion about piercings in the nose, tongue, etc). President Hinckley's actual position was:

Likewise the piercing of the body for multiple rings in the ears, in the nose, even in the tongue. Can they possibly think that is beautiful? It is a passing fancy, but its effects can be permanent. Some have gone to such extremes that the ring had to be removed by surgery. The First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve have declared that we discourage tattoos and also “the piercing of the body for other than medical purposes.” We do not, however, take any position “on the minimal piercing of the ears by women for one pair of earrings”—one pair. (Ensign, Nov. 2000, 50-53)

Which is what I said. Obviously if the Brethren take no position on women getting pierced, it is reasonable to conclude that the piercings themselves aren't the problem. It is obvious from the above that one of the main concerns is that the Brethren don't think that multiple piercings are attractive. The concern, therefore, stems, at least in part, from the image that the Church wants members to project.

Personally, my idea of beauty is not informed by Church opinion of beauty. I like what I like because I like it, not because other's do or don't.

Edited March 29, 2009 by Snow

[Moksha]

by 1930 you could wear a suit which coverage is similar to what I would by today and called Modest, it also covers the area that many Tankinis cover, actually less than some, although i skip the wool. lol

-Charley

Charley, that pictorial was fascinating. Could you take us through decade by decade up to say, 2000?

[john doe]

Charley, that pictorial was fascinating. Could you take us through decade by decade up to say, 2000?

Pervert!

[Janice]

The following is my opinion and my opinion only. I am not stating it as a universal fact to which I think you all should also subscribe. It's just my opinion:

The idea that men and boys should not be topless unless actually in the water is not modesty, it's prudishness. (only my opinion!) In my mind, it promotes the idea that there is something wrong with our bodies, and that they are somehow shameful.

Story.....

____________________________________________________

My husband grew up in home that subscribed to these kinds of strict ideas on clothing... being seeing without a shirt on would result in his mom saying sternly, "get back in your bedroom and don't come out naked again!". Ie: having no shirt on was naked.

Once, about the age of eleven or so, he got out of the shower only to realize he had left his clean towel and clothes in his bedroom. It's funny to hear him tell the story. When he realized he had no towel and no clothes (his old clothes had been sent down the laundry chute), he panicked. The idea of making a break for his bedroom in the buff filled his heart with dread... even though it was at most eight or nine steps away. He considered all options... thought about shouting for someone to bring him a towel or some clothes, but knew this would bring teasing and abuse from his siblings, or a look of reproach from his mom for being forgetful... something for which she often chided him. He thought it better to risk the couple of yards to his bedroom and hopefully nobody would ever be the wiser. So, he cracked open the door, and hiding his naked body behind it, he eyed the empty hallway, and thinking the coast was clear, he mustered up all the courage he could find, flung open the door, and did a mad blind dash for the safety of his bedroom.

Unfortunately, to get to his bedroom he had to run past his older sister's bedroom, and she happened to be in it. She got a fleeting glimpse, a blur really, of him running past, saw that he was naked, and went into fits of hysteria.

In my hubby's words, he got a proper scream-scolding from his mother, and then a solemn, grave discussion from his dad when he got home and his mother told him "what his son had done." His offense, it seems, was three fold: 1) he had forgotten his towel and clean clothes, 2) he had been naked, and 3) he had let his sister see him naked, which caused her much undo stress and anxiety.

____________________________________________________

I won't go into overly personal details, but my husband struggled mightily with body issues as a teen. Use your imagination. He managed to stay a virgin until our honeymoon, but just barely. And his mission was delayed six months while he overcame his "solo" habit. He will fully admit that if the internet had existed when he was a kid and porn was as accessible as it is today, he fears he would have been lost to it. (by the way, I am saying all of this with his permission.)

It is my opinion that an overly strict "modesty" code in the home will often backfire and have the opposite effect parents want it to, and their children will grow up not respecting the human body, but fearing it and viewing it as something mysterious and strange. When parents teach principles like humility, chastity, *true* modesty (not just clothing-focused modesty), good manners, respect, etc... When these principles are taught, the need to enforce clothing rules ceases to exist, as they are simply become second nature.

Janice

P.S. Again, this is only my opinion, and I respect the rights of others to have their own opinions on how to raise kids.

Edited March 28, 2009 by Janice

[Janice]

a Bathing Machine was a vehicle used on the beach so women could be transported into the water and get into it so that noone would see them in a bathing costume

Oh my! I had no idea! That seems like an awful amount of work just to take a dip at the beach. I think I would have just skipped it all together!

I honestly don't know how anyone can say that modesty does not change over time. The BYU dress code alone is a good standard. When my parents went to school there, boys were required to wear dress pants, a shirt and tie, and girls were required to wear full length dresses. Anything less was not modest. When I was a student there, both boys and girls could wear t-shirts and shorts to class.

I am amazed at how hard this concept is to grasp: True Modesty has very little to do with clothing, and much more to do with what kind of person you are. Clothing is *part* of modesty, but not the only part and not even the main part. And even then, the concept of not showing too much skin is only a small part of proper clothing.

Good manners, please and thank you, humility, not boasting or bragging, not showing off, not seeking to always be the center of attention, clothing that does not draw attention to itself by being dirty and wrinkly, clothing that does not draw attention to itself by being gaudy and excessively expensive (dripping with jewelry on every ear and finger), and yes, clothing that does not draw attention to itself by flaunting and showing off our bodies.

Do you live in a modest home? Do you drive a modest car? Do you live a modest life style? Do you manage your money modestly? Is your speech modest? Do you tell modest jokes? Is your behavior modest?

It's my opinion that we have done ourselves a great dis-service by allowing revealing clothing to become the focal point of modesty. It puts the focus on the cheap, the outside, the superficial. It takes the focus away from the inner, the true self, the heart, the soul. Modesty begins with who you are on the inside, and works its way out. Not the other way around. When we begin modesty with "what kind of swim suit should my daughter wear?" and "should my boys be allowed to walk around the house with no shirt on?" I fear we are missing the point of modesty all together.

If someone IS a truely, deeply modest person in their hearts, then these kinds of issues are simply non-issues.

Ok. Soap box over.

Janice

Edited March 28, 2009 by Janice

[hordak]

Oh my! I had no idea! That seems like an awful amount of work just to take a dip at the beach. I think I would have just skipped it all together!

I honestly don't know how anyone can say that modesty does not change over time. The BYU dress code alone is a good standard. When my parents went to school there, boys were required to wear dress pants, a shirt and tie, and girls were required to wear full length dresses. Anything less was not modest. When I was a student there, both boys and girls could wear t-shirts and shorts to class.

I am amazed at how hard this concept is to grasp: True Modesty has very little to do with clothing, and much more to do with what kind of person you are. Clothing is *part* of modesty, but not the only part and not even the main part. And even then, the concept of not showing too much skin is only a small part of proper clothing.

Good manners, please and thank you, humility, not boasting or bragging, not showing off, not seeking to always be the center of attention, clothing that does not draw attention to itself by being dirty and wrinkly, clothing that does not draw attention to itself by being gaudy and excessively expensive (dripping with jewelry on every ear and finger), and yes, clothing that does not draw attention to itself by flaunting and showing off our bodies.

Do you live in a modest home? Do you drive a modest car? Do you live a modest life style? Do you manage your money modestly? Is your speech modest? Do you tell modest jokes? Is your behavior modest?

It's my opinion that we have done ourselves a great dis-service by allowing revealing clothing to become the focal point of modesty. It puts the focus on the cheap, the outside, the superficial. It takes the focus away from the inner, the true self, the heart, the soul. Modesty begins with who you are on the inside, and works its way out. Not the other way around. When we begin modesty with "what kind of swim suit should my daughter wear?" and "should my boys be allowed to walk around the house with no shirt on?" I fear we are missing the point of modesty all together.

If someone IS a truely, deeply modest person in their hearts, then these kinds of issues are simply non-issues.

Ok. Soap box over.

Janice

But the Lord said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart.

Seems like your "on your soap box" with good company.:)

[WANDERER]

Wearing something that is going to give you vitamin D deficiency or rickets/osteoarthritis is over-kill. Fearing to expose your arms and legs for the sake of morality is sad...vitamin D helps your immune system throughout life. It's tied to muscle power in girls. It has anti-cancer effects. It protects your heart. Lack of vitamin D is linked to weight gain and stunted growth and can up your chances of diabetes. Caesarian sections are more common in women with vitamin D deficiency etc.

40% of young children do not get enough vitamin D and one in 7 teens is vitamin D deficient. That means that on x-rays their bones will show a lack of density...the damage is already done.

Sun cancer however is very unattractive. Swimming shirts with uv protection make good sense for both guys and gals. When spending large amounts of time out in the sun when the uv is high good sense should apply to all. At other times, clothing should expose the arms and legs to sunlight.

Quite frankly...some perceptions of modesty sacrifice people's health. Guys/men need to cover up when swimming (cancer) and girls/women don't need to wear long skirts (bone density, osteo and such).

Sexually repressed men from having to cover up their chests and slutty girls from not covering up ... um like of course...guys problems stem from wearing too much clothing and girls from not wearing enough.... soooo ; )...all you'd have to do to cure a porn addiction is fix up your wardrobe.

[Fiannan]

Is your speech modest? Do you tell modest jokes? Is your behavior modest?

Does cryptic innuendo come into play here?

[Fiannan]

Wearing something that is going to give you vitamin D deficiency or rickets/osteoarthritis is over-kill. Fearing to expose your arms and legs for the sake of morality is sad...vitamin D helps your immune system throughout life. It's tied to muscle power in girls. It has anti-cancer effects. It protects your heart. Lack of vitamin D is linked to weight gain and stunted growth and can up your chances of diabetes. Caesarian sections are more common in women with vitamin D deficiency etc.

40% of young children do not get enough vitamin D and one in 7 teens is vitamin D deficient. That means that on x-rays their bones will show a lack of density...the damage is already done.

Sun cancer however is very unattractive. Swimming shirts with uv protection make good sense for both guys and gals. When spending large amounts of time out in the sun when the uv is high good sense should apply to all. At other times, clothing should expose the arms and legs to sunlight.

Quite frankly...some perceptions of modesty sacrifice people's health. Guys/men need to cover up when swimming (cancer) and girls/women don't need to wear long skirts (bone density, osteo and such).

Sexually repressed men from having to cover up their chests and slutty girls from not covering up ... um like of course...guys problems stem from wearing too much clothing and girls from not wearing enough.... soooo ; )...all you'd have to do to cure a porn addiction is fix up your wardrobe.

Moderation in all things. I will note that now research is showing that sunbathing, or just getting sun exposure, reduces blood clots. Sunlight can also reduce harmful bacteria and fungal growths on your skin.

[pam]

Moderation in all things. I will note that now research is showing that sunbathing, or just getting sun exposure, reduces blood clots. Sunlight can also reduce harmful bacteria and fungal growths on your skin.

Sunlight has been shown to help quite a few affirmities..another being psoriasis. But you don't need the majority of your body uncovered to get the affects from it. I've been through light treatment before. I didn't even have to get undressed.

[Connie]

This is from this resource put out by the Church: LDS.org - Family Table of Contents - True to the Faith

“Modesty,” True to the Faith, (2004),106–8

Modesty is an attitude of humility and decency in dress, grooming, language, and behavior. If you are modest, you do not draw undue attention to yourself. Instead, you seek to “glorify God in your body, and in your spirit” (1 Corinthians 6:20; see also 1 Corinthians 6:19).

If you are unsure about whether your dress or grooming is modest, ask yourself, “Would I feel comfortable with my appearance if I were in the Lord’s presence?” You might ask yourself a similar question about your language and behavior: “Would I say these words or participate in these activities if the Lord were present?” Your honest answers to these questions may lead you to make important changes in your life. The following information will help you in your efforts to be modest.

Dress and Grooming

Prophets have always counseled us to dress modestly. This counsel is founded on the truth that the human body is God’s sacred creation. Respect your body as a gift from God. Through your dress and appearance, you can show the Lord that you know how precious your body is.

Your clothing expresses who you are. It sends messages about you, and it influences the way you and others act. When you are well groomed and modestly dressed, you can invite the companionship of the Spirit and exercise a good influence on those around you.

Central to the command to be modest is an understanding of the sacred power of procreation, the ability to bring children into the world. This power is to be used only between husband and wife. Revealing and sexually suggestive clothing, which includes short shorts and skirts, tight clothing, and shirts that do not cover the stomach, can stimulate desires and actions that violate the Lord’s law of chastity.

In addition to avoiding clothing that is revealing, you should avoid extremes in clothing, appearance, and hairstyle. In dress, grooming, and manners, always be neat and clean, never sloppy or inappropriately casual. Do not disfigure yourself with tattoos or body piercings. If you are a woman and you desire to have your ears pierced, wear only one pair of modest earrings.

Maintain high standards of modesty for all occasions. Do not lower your standards to draw attention to your body or to seek approval from others. True disciples of Jesus Christ maintain the Lord’s standard regardless of current fashions or pressure from others.

Language and Behavior

Like your dress and grooming, your language and behavior are expressions of your character. Your words and actions can have a profound influence on you and on others. Express yourself through clean, positive, uplifting language and in actions that bring happiness to those around you. Your efforts to be modest in word and deed lead to increased guidance and comfort from the Holy Ghost.

Avoid the filthy language and the casual, irreverent use of the Lord’s name that are so common in the world. Withstand any temptation to participate in extreme or inappropriate behavior. The irreverent nature of such language and behavior impairs your ability to receive the quiet promptings of the Holy Ghost.

Additional references: D&C 42:40–41; Articles of Faith 1:13

[Moksha]

His offense, it seems, was three fold: 1) he had forgotten his towel and clean clothes, 2) he had been naked, and 3) he had let his sister see him naked, which caused her much undo stress and anxiety.

Too bad he was not Noah, then he could have placed a curse on his sister and her decendants.

[Moksha]

I've been through light treatment before. I didn't even have to get undressed.

I don't think you are alone in this. Bet some other LDS women do this at the tanning salon too.

[applepansy]

President Monson said the following about For The Strength of Youth.

LDS.org - New Era Article - Standards of Strength

From For the Strength of Youth:

“For the Strength of Youth,” Guidebook for Parents and Leaders of Youth, 7

For the Strength of Youth is a guide given by the First Presidency of the Church to young men and young women. It presents the standards of the Church and teaches youth how to apply them. It provides sure direction to strengthen youth and guide them on their journey through life. By keeping these standards, youth will be of great service in the Church and the world and will be worthy to go to the temple to receive holy ordinances.

Every young man and young woman should have a copy of For the Strength of Youth. They should be encouraged to review the standards often and consider how well they are living them.

As a parent, you should have a copy of the pamphlet. Study it. Discuss the standards and principles with your sons and daughters. Plan family home evenings to discuss the standards. Live the standards yourself. Your example will do much to help your children live them too.

If you are a leader, you should study the standards in the pamphlet. Find ways to reinforce them in lessons and in quorum and class activities. For the Strength of Youth is a key resource for planning Mutual activities.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

“Dress and Appearance,” For the Strength of Youth: Fulfilling Our Duty to God, 14

“Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? … The temple of God is holy, which temple ye are” (1 Corinthians 3:16–17).

Your body is God’s sacred creation. Respect it as a gift from God, and do not defile it in any way. Through your dress and appearance, you can show the Lord that you know how precious your body is. You can show that you are a disciple of Jesus Christ.

Prophets of God have always counseled His children to dress modestly. The way you dress is a reflection of what you are on the inside. Your dress and grooming send messages about you to others and influence the way you and others act. When you are well groomed and modestly dressed, you invite the companionship of the Spirit and can exercise a good influence on those around you.

Never lower your dress standards for any occasion. Doing so sends the message that you are using your body to get attention and approval and that modesty is important only when it is convenient.

Immodest clothing includes short shorts and skirts, tight clothing, shirts that do not cover the stomach, and other revealing attire. Young women should wear clothing that covers the shoulder and avoid clothing that is low-cut in the front or the back or revealing in any other manner. Young men should also maintain modesty in their appearance. All should avoid extremes in clothing, appearance, and hairstyle. Always be neat and clean and avoid being sloppy or inappropriately casual in dress, grooming, and manners. Ask yourself, “Would I feel comfortable with my appearance if I were in the Lord’s presence?”

Someday you will receive your endowment in the temple. Your dress and behavior should help you prepare for that sacred time.

Do not disfigure yourself with tattoos or body piercings. If girls or women desire to have their ears pierced, they are encouraged to wear only one pair of modest earrings.

Show respect for the Lord and for yourself by dressing appropriately for Church meetings and activities, whether on Sunday or during the week. If you are not sure what is appropriate, ask your parents or leaders for help.

Alma 1:27

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I believe you can teach modesty in attitude along with modesty in dress and behavior.

applepansy

[pam]

My thoughts are...attitude is influenced by what you wear. If you dress modestly you are more apt to act modestly. If you dress slutty or inappropriately...it takes away the Spirit and allows Satan to also work on your thoughts and actions.

I'm sorry...but being modest in thought or attitude and dressing inappropriately do not go hand in hand. That's my opinion.

[Connie]

My thoughts are...attitude is influenced by what you wear. If you dress modestly you are more apt to act modestly. If you dress slutty or inappropriately...it takes away the Spirit and allows Satan to also work on your thoughts and actions.

I'm sorry...but being modest in thought or attitude and dressing inappropriately do not go hand in hand. That's my opinion.

Exactly! And that is what it said in my above post, "Your clothing expresses who you are. It sends messages about you, and it influences the way you and others act. When you are well groomed and modestly dressed, you can invite the companionship of the Spirit and exercise a good influence on those around you."

And, by the way, these are words sanctioned by The First Presidency. Here is what they say about the True to the Faith book which my above post comes from:

"This book is designed as a companion to your study of the scriptures and the teachings of latter-day prophets. We encourage you to refer to it as you study and apply gospel principles. Use it as a resource when you prepare talks, teach classes, and answer questions about the Church.

As you learn gospel truths, you will increase in your understanding of Heavenly Father’s eternal plan. With this understanding as a foundation for your life, you will be able to make wise choices, live in harmony with God’s will, and find joy in living. Your testimony will grow stronger. You will remain true to the faith.

We are especially mindful of youth, young single adults, and new converts. We promise you that through regular personal prayer and study of the scriptures and the doctrines of the gospel you will be prepared to withstand evil influences that would deceive you and harm you.

May this book strengthen you in your efforts to draw near to the Savior and follow His example.

The First Presidency "

[applepansy]

My thoughts are...attitude is influenced by what you wear. If you dress modestly you are more apt to act modestly. If you dress slutty or inappropriately...it takes away the Spirit and allows Satan to also work on your thoughts and actions.

I'm sorry...but being modest in thought or attitude and dressing inappropriately do not go hand in hand. That's my opinion.

I wholeheartedly agree Pam.

It is important to teach all aspects of modesty; attitude, dress, behavior. If you leave out dress you are taking down the first line of defense.

(A couple of years ago I was working at the Ogden temple at the clothing desk. A sister walked by and my mouth dropped open. She had on a "modest" temple dress in that it covered from her neck to her finger tips and toes. However, two things made it immodest. One was attitude (she was very proud of her body - she was in great shape) and she chose a dress that was tight and showed every muscle ripple. I wondered how she dressed outside the temple. I was not the only one who noticed, and isn't that sad. . . someone who dressed to be noticed in the temple.)

Teaching youth how to dress modestly is just as important as teaching them to be modest in attitude and behavior.

applepansy

[pam]

My other thought is...if you have to ask if a swimsuit is appropriate....it probably isn't. Same with any other types of clothing.

[john doe]

So................ that thong I wore to the beach in Cabo last spring wasn't appropriate? But I was thinking good thoughts!!!

[pam]

So................ that thong I wore to the beach in Cabo last spring wasn't appropriate? But I was thinking good thoughts!!!

I don't EVEN want the thoughts of that sight.

[Janice]

I believe you can teach modesty in attitude along with modesty in dress and behavior.

I wholeheartedly agree! I certainly hope nobody thought anyone here was saying otherwise.

Here's my only point: Clothing does not make a person modest or immodest. Too often when we teach modesty I think perhaps we teach it from the outside in: If you wear modest clothing, you will be a modest person. I prefer to teach it from the inside out: If you are a modest person, then the clothing will follow.

I know I am drawing conclusions from a very small sample pool, but it has been my (limited) experience that parents who clamp down and impose heavy rules on the type of clothing their daughters wear and who can be heard publicly declaring things like "NO DAUGHTER OF MINE WILL EVER OWN A BIKINI!" are the same parents who end up becoming grandparents before their own children are married. With the very best of intentions, they taught and enforced the principle of modest clothing thinking that true modesty would then follow. But, in fact, they failed to actually teach modesty.

Janice

Edited March 30, 2009 by Janice

[Janice]

My thoughts are...attitude is influenced by what you wear. If you dress modestly you are more apt to act modestly. If you dress slutty or inappropriately...it takes away the Spirit and allows Satan to also work on your thoughts and actions.

I'm sorry...but being modest in thought or attitude and dressing inappropriately do not go hand in hand. That's my opinion.

Why are you sorry? No need for that! I very much agree, as I think we all do. Naturally being modest in thought or attitude and dressing inappropriately do not go hand in hand! I may be being prideful in making this assumption, but if you've made this statement in reply to something I've said, then I think perhaps I have not made my case clearly enough.

If you dress modestly you are more apt to act modestly.

True. But perhaps also consider this: You can take an immodest person and dress them in modest clothing, they may behave modestly for an evening or so, but it has not changed who they are in their hearts.

I read a story a long while ago about a professional football team that was having trouble with complaints from the airlines that transported them and the hotels where they stayed. The players kept making passes at female employees and worse... groping and fondling them and making terribly rude comments. Threats, sanctions, and punishment did very little to encourage them to stop. Someone suggested that the players be given a dress code when they travel: full three piece suit, dress shirt and tie. The code was enforced, and behavior improved. Instead of acting like animals they acted like professional businessmen, which is how they were dressed.

The story was told as a case study of how dress can change behavior. But when I heard it I wondered then, and I still wonder now... how many of the players actually changed in their hearts? When they were out of their suits and ties, did they revert back to being animals?

If you dress slutty or inappropriately...it takes away the Spirit and allows Satan to also work on your thoughts and actions.

Absolutely! Once again, I hope nobody is advocating dressing like a slut!!! But, in the case where someone does dress this way, the problem is not the choice in clothing, and simply forcing (or asking) the person to put on different clothing is like putting a band aid on a cancerous tumor and then congratulating yourself for having cured the visible symptoms. When someone chooses to dress like a slut, the problem is not with the clothing, but with the person him/her self. This person needs to be deeply loved, to understand their own self worth, to see themselves as God sees them. When this change of heart takes place, the proper clothing will follow.

Perhaps Ezra Taft Benson said it better then I can:

“The Lord works from the inside out. The world works from the outside in. The world would take people out of the slums. Christ takes the slums out of people, and then they take themselves out of the slums. The world would mold men by changing their environment. Christ changes men, who then change their environment. The world would shape human behavior, but Christ can change human nature.”

So, Pam, when you say: "If you dress modestly you are more apt to act modestly", I say this is a true statement, but would it not be better to look at modesty this way?:

When people are modest in their hearts, they will choose to dress modestly. Focus first on the person, and let the choice in clothing follow.

Janice

Edited March 30, 2009 by Janice