Women equality

[bert10]

Just a guy...

You heard correctly. I can give you an example....For example between Rachel and Leah...it is Rachel who decided when and with whom Jacob would lie with. One day...Leah bargained for this favor with Rachel with Mandrakes.

The whole law of polygamy can be given to men who ask of God. This is but one of the many ways I can know when a Polygamous relationship is of God or not. In a righteous polygamous relationship...it is not the husband that selects the wives. It is forbidden for the husband to propose. It is up to the woman to approach the first wife and ask permission. A Man must take only what God gives him.

Peace be unto you

bert10

Wait . . . what?

[WANDERER]

Somewhat confusing: what is morally right for a man to do is not morally right for a woman to do.

It's almost as if there are two different concepts of sin and salvation.

[bert10]

Wandering...

Not really. Morality is what we think is right and wrong. It is our own code of Ethics. And it is from our wisdom.

An example...

Though Oranges, and bananas are both fruits. They are not the same neither should we treat both the same or we risk bruising one more than the other.

----------------------------------------

It is what God says to each of us in our heart that matters and is right. The voice of God should be our guide and morality. And God will give each one of us for our good.

Sin is transgression of the Law...it is written if ye are LED by the Spirit Ye are not under the law. For those who are led by the Spirit of God have only one law...which is the will of God in all things.

I hope this makes you feel at ease...what I have not talked on are the duties of man and woman in marriages and how coupled with "Unconditional Love" Satan is made totally impotent to attack that marriage and take away joy and happiness by introducing contentions, jealousy and envy.

PEace be unto you

bert10

Somewhat confusing: what is morally right for a man to do is not morally right for a woman to do.

It's almost as if there are two different concepts of sin and salvation.

[WANDERER]

Evil = good and good=evil

Though Oranges, and bananas are both fruits. They are not the same neither should we treat both the same.

Yes that's what I am saying...oranges are oranges and bananas are bananas.

Either it's good or evil...how can it be both at the same time depending on what gender you are?

[Dravin]

It is also true that the woman is the one who decides if & when & with whom her husband practices polgamy, if ever.

Not true, God decides those things he just doesn't hold a husband responsible if after having been commanded to practice such his wife says, "You will not.", of course if her husband has been commanded to practice polygamy and she says no then she is under condemnation just as the husband would be if he was commanded and refused.

Now I suppose a wife could petition God but its up to him not the wife as to whether it is okay for a man to practice polygamy and with whom he shall do so, if it really was up to the woman that means my Mom could tell my Dad to get a second wife and if he did so he wouldn't be under any condemnation, which is false.

[foreverafter]

Not true, God decides those things he just doesn't hold a husband responsible if after having been commanded to practice such his wife says, "You will not.", of course if her husband has been commanded to practice polygamy and she says no then she is under condemnation just as the husband would be if he was commanded and refused.

Now I suppose a wife could petition God but its up to him not the wife as to whether it is okay for a man to practice polygamy and with whom he shall do so, if it really was up to the woman that means my Mom could tell my Dad to get a second wife and if he did so he wouldn't be under any condemnation, which is false.

When God authorizes plural marriage, that does not mean that all men in the church are worthy of it. A man must be truly righteous & faithful to his wife to be worthy. Any man who would desire another wife or woman, other than his wife, would prove himself unworthy of plural marriage. He must feel just as faithful & true as his wife feels for him. Thus God lays the power of it in the 1st wife's hands, as would any righteous husband & it only is to happen by her consent. Just because the wife says No, does not mean she is disobedient, she may know that her husband is not worthy of it or that he can't take care his duties for her & her children sufficiently (for the 1st wife must never be neglected), let alone another, or maybe he does not treat her right nor have true love (which is very rare among men) & thus wouldn't treat another woman right either, she is in essence a protecter of other women & children too. Now if her husband was truely righteous & she still said no, then yes, she would be under condemnation, but her husband would still not practice it.

A righteous wife with a truly righteous husband would receive inspiration from God to help her decide who to chose to be the 2nd wife.

Edited March 26, 2009 by foreverafter

[Just_A_Guy]

Just a guy...

You heard correctly. I can give you an example....For example between Rachel and Leah...it is Rachel who decided when and with whom Jacob would lie with. One day...Leah bargained for this favor with Rachel with Mandrakes.

Hi Bert--

I can agree with a lot of what you're saying. But not this. Rachel's not "giving orders" to Leah in Genesis 30; she's simply making a trade. And in point of fact, it was Leah and not Rachel who was the first wife.

I've no problem with the idea of the first wife approving other marriages of her husband. But to say every other wife needs permission of the first wife each and every time she wants to share a night with her husband strikes me as just . . . creepy; and I don't see any scriptural support for that kind of practice.

[foreverafter]

Again remember...even though Jesus was born to Mary...It was Joseph the head of the family who received the dream to flee unto Egypt not Mary.

Oness does not mean that there is no more head. It means acquiring the mind of Christ and each person shall fulfill perfectly their intended purposes. Worthy men normally shall receive revelations for the Family in Education, safety, housing and food. Women normally shall receive revelations on the state of the Family and how to coordinate all things that is required to make a family work.

Each the man and the woman have their own sphere of authority and their bounds. Normally it is not well when one decides thread on the bounds of authority of their spouse.

I tell you the truth...the divorce rate shall not go down until LDS live the ways of the Lord. The marriages who fail to honor the Order that God has set shall never have a fullness of love, joy and happiness.

We must remember that the way the Church is & has been run throughout history, with men in authority positions, is not the way heaven will be run. In the heavens, husbands & wives will sit in equal & full authority over every aspect of heaven. Just as in righteous earthly homes. Husbands & wives equally can & do receive revelation about any area of the marriage, family or personal life or role of the other. There is no area in a couple's life, (unless it is in their church callings like if he is Bishop or she is Relief Society Pres.) that the other shouldn't or can't just receive just as much revelation about.

In fact, everything the man does is to support the wife in her high calling of Motherhood, so if there is anything about his career, or the finances, or his church callings, home, etc, that is not right for her, than she can receive revelation about that & counsel him to make changes. The question is will the man or the woman have the humility to listen to & obey the counsel of their spouse. The woman will more likely do so & is only asked to do so, if the man 1st shows his humility to listen to her counsel 1st.

That Joseph recieved the revelation to flee could have been for many reasons, (God knowing the customs of the day, Joseph needing to feel included & important to have his share in the whole process, for Mary had received so many revelations already, etc.) But Mary could have just as rightly been given that revelation, instead of or along with Joseph. We must remember that in those days & hardly ever in the history of the world has women's authority & position been understood, revealed, respected & honored & listened to. But today the Prophets are teaching things that have never been revealed about women. Men obeying women is not women ruling them if the woman leads her husband righteously & not by intimidation or force. But it is generally given to women to lead men to righteousness & teach them how to love & sacrifice, although sometimes it's the man who is more righteous & so needs to teach & inspire his wife.

I agree that the divorce rate will only go down as marriage vows are once again held sacred & people believe in & are willing to have True Unconditional Love for one another. But the Prophets have said that men especially need to learn how to respect women & their full equality in marriage & leadership. Men don't seem to have a problem submitting to women during the dating period & on bended knee they profess to give their life to love her & make her happy so she will consent to marry them but something happens once married that most men forget that they vowed to live to make her happy. Brigham Young said that not 1 woman in a 1000 would not love their husband who was righteous like that.

[foreverafter]

Just-A-Guy,

The 1st wife has the say because she is the one who made the greatest sacrifice in choosing to share her husband. Even though God may have commanded it, she could have refused, even if he was righteous, he would not have done it. Every other wife after her joined the marriage with the understanding that she would not be the 1st & that the husband would not be in love with her, but hopefully grow to love her. The other wives could have held out for another man & been a 1st wife, but chose not to.

The 1st wife always comes 1st. It's part of the Law of Consecration, whereas you share your excess but your needs are to be met 1st. The 1st wife shares the excess of her husband's time & ability to care for, which isn't much in this world, for few men can hardly take care of the needs of 1 wife & children, let alone 2 or 3. But never in history has women been respected as equal in marriage before when polygamy has been lived, so men took on many wives, more than they could meet the needs for. Thus when the 1st wife is in charge, she would allow far less wives so that he only has as many as he can take care of.

[Just_A_Guy]

As I said . . . I don't see any scriptural support for the practice.

[foreverafter]

Somewhat confusing: what is morally right for a man to do is not morally right for a woman to do.

It's almost as if there are two different concepts of sin and salvation.

Plural marriage will almost surely go both ways when it is reinstated & in heaven. It's just that men have never honored or respected the rights & equality of women in marriage in 6000 years until today. So if Heavenly Father wanted to offer it to women he knew men would never have allowed it or handled it. The Prophets have said that women receive the same blessings as men & in the early days of the church the leaders taught the principle that women could have two living husbands (if it's ok on earth, it is almost surely going to happen in heaven) also, D&C 132:41-42 talks about women having more than one husband, but it says she must be called to it 1st, like men must be called to it. Also, common sense tells us so, which one prophet said "common sense" was the same as the Spirit. Heavenly Father does not ask women to marry & fall deeply in love with men, just to make her say goodbye in heaven & choose one, while letting his sons have multiple spouses. Even Mary, the greatest of all women, it has been said by prophets that she had 2 husbands at the same time, Heavenly Father & Joseph. Plural marriage is also a "blessing of Abraham" for righteousness & women have shown greater righteousness than men throughout the history of the world the Prophets say. But very little has been revealed yet about the blessings that women will receive in heaven for their righteousness & sacrifices here on earth despite the domination of men for 6000 years.

Also, plural marriage would work far better the other way around than how it's been done. Heavenly Father never wanted to have women neglected & broken hearted just to have tons of children born. Protecting women is his highest priority. Because he knows that it's almost impossible for a women to raise righteous children if she is not happy & loved & respected. Few men can support, handle, stay faithful to & meet the needs of & keep 1 woman happy & do their half of all the child & baby care, cooking, cleaning, etc. etc, for 1 women & family, let alone 2 or 3. Whereas, it would be easy for most women to inspire, be a confidant to & take care of the needs of many men. Though a righteous woman would never want more than one, anymore than a righteous man would.

Edited March 26, 2009 by foreverafter

[Dravin]

When God authorizes plural marriage, that does not mean that all men in the church are worthy of it.

Straw man, the question is not who may or may not be worthy of practicing polygamy (what ever that means), the question is in whose hands the authority to command men to practice it lies. Here is a hint, it isn't anyone living on this planet at the moment.

Can my Mother or can she not give my Dad permission to take on another wife, and if he does so is he under condemnation? If the answer is yes (he is under condemnation) then I guess God gets to decided if my Dad practices polygamy, and if so when, not my Mother.

God respects the marriage partnership and may think that not being able to fufill the command to polygamy is better than the divorce that would be caused by the husband going ahead anyway but that doesn't mean its up to the wife if her husband is called she may receive confirmation if such is the case (or a warning that he's lying about being called) but her opinion matters not a whit as to whether it is true or not. Just like the Pope's opinion matters not a whit as to whether President Monson is a prophet, he is or he isn't people's opinions do not change that one way or the other. If a man is called to polygamy his wife's opinion is irrelevant to that fact, her opinion matters as to whether he practices or not but not to whether he is called (I know, I'm repeating myself a lot).

I can imagine a scenario where a wife threatens to leave her husband if he accepts the call to be a Bishop and the Lord not holding the potential Bishop responsible for not accepting the calling but that does not mean that God has given women (or men, reverse the scenario with a Releif Society President if you want) the right to veto his commands/callings, he just prefers the lesser of two evils. In this case the potential Bishop not accepting the call is preferable to a divorce.

Now if her husband was truely righteous & she still said no, then yes, she would be under condemnation, but her husband would still not practice it.

In other words, if a man was truly called to it (not taking it upon himself) and his wife vetoed it she would be under condemnation... this seems familar for some reason.

[Moksha]

However, there is a difference in men and woman that no one can deny.

So male anatomical differences equal eligibility for the Priesthood?

They are both Love equally before God.

Peace be unto you

bert10

This has a perfect ring of truth to it. :)

.

[JohnnyRudick]

Hi Bert--

I can agree with a lot of what you're saying. But not this. Rachel's not "giving orders" to Leah in Genesis 30; she's simply making a trade. . .

Could be this exchange referred to;

Genesis 30:1 And when Rachel saw that she bare Jacob no

children, Rachel envied her sister; and said unto Jacob, Give me

children, or else I die.

Genesis 30:2 And Jacob's anger was kindled against Rachel: and

he said, Am I in God's stead, who hath withheld from thee the

fruit of the womb?

Genesis 30:3 And she said, Behold my maid Bilhah, go in unto

her; and she shall bear upon my knees, that I may also have

children by her.

Genesis 30:4 And she gave him Bilhah her handmaid to wife: and

Jacob went in unto her.

Genesis 30:5 And Bilhah conceived, and bare Jacob a son.

Genesis 30:6 And Rachel said, God hath judged me, and hath also

heard my voice, and hath given me a son: therefore called she his

name Dan.

Genesis 30:7 And Bilhah Rachel's maid conceived again, and bare

Jacob a second son.

Genesis 30:8 And Rachel said, With great wrestlings have I

wrestled with my sister, and I have prevailed: and she called his

name Naphtali.

Genesis 30:9 When Leah saw that she had left bearing, she took

Zilpah her maid, and gave her Jacob to wife.

Genesis 30:10 And Zilpah Leah's maid bare Jacob a son.

Genesis 30:11 And Leah said, A troop cometh: and she called his

name Gad.

Genesis 30:12 And Zilpah Leah's maid bare Jacob a second son.

Genesis 30:13 And Leah said, Happy am I, for the daughters will

call me blessed: and she called his name Asher.

Bro. Rudick

[foreverafter]

the question is in whose hands the authority to command men to practice it lies. Here is a hint, it isn't anyone living on this planet at the moment.

Can my Mother or can she not give my Dad permission to take on another wife,

No your mother nor any woman cannot just decide to give her husband permission to take on another wife,& no woman in her right mind would, for righteous women don't want to live polygamy, at least not in this life, it is repulsive to them & also repulsive to righteous men.

Only Heavenly Father can of course authorize the practice of plural marriage, but he does it through the Prophet. Again, even if he authorizes it generally, men must still be righteous to do it individually . Like when he authorizes men to receive the Priesthood, not every man in the church is worthy to. It's a case by case basis.

Your example of a Bishop being called is not quite relevant because there is a difference between the Prophet declaring something & local leaders calling men to callings. Local leaders can error in calling men to callings, & the wife in many cases must step in & inform the leader why it would not be a good idea & so they often change the minds of the leaders or have their husbands released from callings he is not worthy of. For the wife knows of things about the husband that the local leaders usually don't. So they are to listen to & follow the wife if it has to do with her husband.

In D&C 132 it clearly states that the 1st wife must give her consent or God tells the man not to live it if she doesn't. Again, only the wife usually knows if her husband is righteous, that is why God puts the veto power in the woman's hands, for God knows that no righteous woman would consent to her husband going out to find a woman for himself, so that clause helps keep him in line & from doing that, but no man who truly loved his wife would ever want to go pursue another woman or take another but would only want to accept a woman their wife chose & felt comfortable with, but only if God & his wife asked him to. Men can't look around or date, even with plural marriage, anymore than the wife can.

Edited March 27, 2009 by foreverafter

[rameumptom]

Rachel allowing Jacob to sleep with Bilhah was not an instance of primary wife commanding. It was an instance of a second wife having her husband give her children through a concubine (slave wife).

Rachel still had to bargain with Leah to obtain a special night with Jacob.

The ancient forms are being discussed here are not gospel points, but cultural points. We neither have concubines nor use superstitions like mandrake roots to ensure fertility today.

Women were not considered equal to men back then. It is a very different world, and we follow the modern revelations whenever they trump the ancient scriptures. Today, we have the Proclamation on the Family, which tells us that man and woman are equal, with separate roles. The man presides, but they lead the family equally. Just as a bishop receives counsel from his counselors and then makes a decision, husband and wife also work the same. A wise husband will often defer to his wife's suggestions, and will always consider them, in any case.

It is an unrighteous man that insists on ruling, based upon his holding the priesthood. Rather, we are to lead by encouragement, and kindness.

[Hemidakota]

I asked about women in LDS. An elder said they were in fact equal but expected to be "nurturers". Also, they can't become a minister [i don't know the rankings]. To me that doesn't sound like equality. Can someone please clarify?

Opt. I know some sects have polygamy. Can women have more than 1 husbands?

"The Buddha's cousin Ananda asked if there was any reason women could not realize enlightenment and enter Nirvana as well as men. The Buddha admitted there was no reason a woman could not be enlightened. "Women, Ananda, having gone forth are able to realize the fruit of stream-attainment or the fruit of once-returning or the fruit of non-returning or arahantship," he said."

Seeing it has been digested thoroughly in many threads, the answer is NO.

[foreverafter]

Today, we have the Proclamation on the Family, which tells us that man and woman are equal, with separate roles. The man presides, but they lead the family equally. Just as a bishop receives counsel from his counselors and then makes a decision, husband and wife also work the same. A wise husband will often defer to his wife's suggestions, and will always consider them, in any case.

I think it needs to be understood here, that it is Unrighteous Dominion & Spouse Abuse to describe or treat the wife like a Counselor & the husband like the Bishop who listens to her but then makes the final decision, which amazingly enough is what most men have believed & done for thousands of years until today, when men are finally repenting from that & accepting women as full & equal partners in the marriage.

The Prophets (Elder Perry in Gen.Conf. & others) have clarified that both the husband & the wife both preside equally, as Co-Presiders (Co-Bishops), over each other & the family. In actuality even, only if the man is righteous & respectful of the woman, does he have a say in the decisions of the family & children at all. God gives the children to the woman 100% to carry & protect & nurture in her womb & only if the man is safe, righteous & lovingly serves her as he vowed & listens to her counsel & wishes as God as commanded him to, would then a righteous woman allow the man to stay with her when she has the child & allow him to raise it with her. He must 1st prove his service & submission & listen to her as God instructs, before she is asked to submit to or listen to or stay with him. If he does not do these things God gives her complete right to take her children & leave the man & preside completely over her family alone if need be. So if anyone is the Bishop it is the woman, but if the man is righteous & faithful he also earns the right to share that position with her. I believe though, that a righteous woman would still stay with her husband, even if he is not completely righteous but at least safe, & love him anyway & encourage him to higher heights eventually, but raise her children as she feels inspired to, as long as he respects her freedom in doing so.

We don't hear about the presiding role of women as much, because it's still hard for many men to hear & accept & the Church likes to focus on her role in Motherhood & leaders often speak of the man's role to preside in hopes of encouraging men to do their half of the presiding. For historically, most of the 'presiding' (when you understand the meaning of the word) has been left for the woman to do alone. So we usually only hear about men's presiding role so they will hopefully step up to the plate & help preside with her.

The Prophets have taught that the Husband & Wife are not like a Bishop & his counselor, but they are "Co-Presidents" as Elder Perry said (like Co-Bishops) with equal position, power & authority & rights to preside & decide and each is to listen to the counsel of the other & neither makes the final decision but discusses it until both totally feel right about it & agree. If anyone is to bow 1st to the desires of the other, it's the man, to his wife's requests, for he is asked to 1st submit in the marriage.

No woman is under any obligation to follow a husband who doesn't respect her equal say in all matters or if he makes a decision (about job, finances, children, home, etc.) without her agreement. Such would be unrighteous dominion & serious Spouse Abuse.

Edited March 29, 2009 by foreverafter