Help with separation


tls70
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I posted a few weeks ago about my husband having an affair and facing church discipline. Well things have taken some turns I didn't expect and while it seemed at first it seemed he was willing to do what he needed to, now he is questioning the truth of the church and whether we love each other enough to work things out. He has asked that I agree with him at this time that he needs to move out to fix himself and figure out what he wants. He wants to figure out what he believes and if his feelings are strong enough for me. I am really struggling with the separation thing. While I have to agree with him that I wish he could figure things out and hopefully come to have a testimony of the church I'm scared for him and for us. I feel hopeless and discouraged and can't seem to get rid of these feelings. I know I need to be strong for my kids and show him I can be strong. (My depression problems in the past have been a big issue with him). He's not going to want to come back to a depressed miserable person. How do I cope with everything? How do I lift myself up? When I've prayed I've been giving the feeling that I will be okay no matter what happens and that I need to have hope and there is great hope still for our relationship. But even knowing all this I can't seem to move on. It is affecting my work, my kids, everything. I can't stop thinking about everything. I feel like I am going crazy. Help!

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In this case, being strong means getting a lawyer. He cheated on you and he's not willing to stay to work things out. "I need to go figure out what I want" is quite likely another way of saying "I'm moving in with this other woman, and I'll be suing for divorce soon".

You need to protect your children. Get a lawyer.

So, that's the temporal work you must do. Of course there is spiritual work as well. Meet with your bishop early and often. Tell him what you're telling us.

I'm sorry.

LM

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I am not so sure about the lawyer...... This has happened to me and I packed all his stuff into boxes he was gone three weeks but during that time I looked at myself .. my role in our relationship... I worked on me.... I prayed....... I got blessings.. I talked to the Bishop. I relized zi could survive if he didn't come back .. treated myself nicer.... I didn't make it easy on him but let him know I knew how things were suppose to be and hopefully he would figue it out but if not he would be the one loosing out on hiss family , me etc....... I felt empowered knowing all would work out no matter what... The only person I could control at that time was me and that was the best thing I could of done.

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I have to agree with Loudmouth.

Since when has a "seperation" ever been good for a marriage?

I agree. It's his way of destroying it, indirectly.

While I also agree with Loudmouth for the most part, I disagree with the idea that separation is never good for a marriage. It can be (and most often is) damaging, but it is not a death sentence. It can be a very positive thing, if both spouses commit to working on their own issues during the separation.

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Separations can be good things. The danger for him is the longer he's away the more you're gonna see how much calmer and peaceful life is without him lol. It doesn't matter how much you love him, life is almost always easier when you're the one making the decisions about the kids and money.

Enjoy the next little while, maybe get a haircut or dye your hair really bright red. That's what I did :P

You have many many years ahead of you. Take a long bath when the kids are in school. Maybe look into going to school if you don't have a degree. Talk to your visiting teachers, home teachers, and bishop. The point is, stay busy while your husband is off on his little finding himself kick. You are an equal partner in this marriage, and he needs to know that once he leaves you don't have to take him back.

I'm not advocating divorce, far from it. What I'm advocating is taking your part of this marriage and doing your best. This way you can look straight into your husband's and children's eyes and tell them you did your best and have nothing to be sorry about.

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Loudmouth is dead-on. See a lawyer. Most states will let you get a "separate maintenance" order that, while not technically a divorce, will protect your interests and make sure your husband fulfills his financial obligations to you until you guys figure out whether you want to go through with a full-fledged divorce.

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tls70,

If you want to ever feel stronger & at peace & in love with him & right with Heavenly Father, then the only way is by keepng your marriage covenants the very best you can, even if your husband doesn't. The Prophets plead with us to never break our covenants & never give up on our spouse. You covenanted to love him with unconditional true love, that is a very rare thing these days, but I promise you it is the only thing that works. Separation is the last thing (unless he is really abusive) that will help your marriage, though some have been lucky to have it turn out positive, usually it doesn't & will only end things sooner. I would continue to love him & serve his every wish & try to at least smile & be pleasant when he is around, no matter if you feel lousy inside.

I know this might be hard, but you will regain a strength & love for him (that will lift you) that you never knew if you do this. Instead of separation, I would do the opposite - Do everything together - as much as he will let you without it bothering him that you are with him. This will work wonders! It is not good for men to be alone, they need a woman by their side continually to help them be strong & good. Think about when you dated him & were falling in love, you were together tons probably, that's what it takes to fall in love & stay in love, as well as serving their every wish. It's easy to fall back in love if you do this. Someday he will follow your example & do the same for you, though it may take time. Pres. Hinckley said, Put his happiness & needs & welfare 1st before your own, & your marriage will go on forever & you will become happy.

He may not care what you say or do & leave or divorce you anyway, but know this, it is impossible for him to truly divorce you IF you are a faithful wife, not perfect, but faithful & try to love him & make it work. Brigham Young & other prophets have taught - that though the world may grant him a decree with the words Divorce on it, it means nothing to God & he considers you still 100% completely married. BY said, The divorce is as good as a blank piece of paper or a piece of his shirt tail for as much power as it has to break up the marriage. Though you must abide by it's legal issues in this world, (kids, money, etc.). But he is yours forever if you want him, so that should give you some calm until he repents & treats you as a Queen & makes it all up to you. And someday he will do so, if you want to keep your covenants & wait for him to come around. But our sacred covenants are the only way to true happiness & joy.

Edited by foreverafter
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I think this is what Foreverafter is referring to:

I say to my sisters in the kingdom, who are sealed to men, and who say, "We do not want this man in eternity if he is going to conduct himself there as he does here"—there is not the least danger in the world of your ever seeing him in eternity or of his seeing you there if he proves himself unworthy here. But if he honors his Priesthood, and you are to blame and come short of doing your duty, and prove yourself unworthy of celestial glory, it will be left to him to do what he pleases with you. You will be very glad to get to him if you find the fault was in yourself and not in him. But if you are not at fault, be not troubled about being joined to him there, for no man will have the privilege of gathering his wives and children around him there unless he proves himself worthy of them.

I have said a number of times, and I will say again, to you ladies who want to get a bill of divorce from your husbands, because they do not treat you right, or because you do not exactly like their ways, there is a principle upon which a woman can leave a man, but if the man honors his Priesthood, it will be pretty hard work for you to get away from him. If he is just and right, serves God and is full of justice, love, mercy and truth, he will have the power that is sealed upon him, and will do what he pleases with you. When you want to get a bill of divorce, you had better wait and find out whether the Lord is willing to give you one or not, and not come to me.

Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 17:119 [emphasis added]

President Young seems to be talking about temple marriages here, not civil marriages. And, to some degree, this counsel may have been superseded by the Church's practice of issuing cancellations of sealings. (It would seem to be somewhat disingenuous for the First Presidency to declare a sealing "cancelled" if it wasn't really "cancelled".) The First Presidency has the power to loose as well as to bind (see Matt 16:19).

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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I think this is what Foreverafter is referring to:

President Young seems to be talking about temple marriages here, not civil marriages. And, to some degree, this counsel may have been superseded by the Church's practice of issuing cancellations of sealings. (It would seem to be somewhat disingenuous for the First Presidency to declare a sealing "cancelled" if it wasn't really "cancelled".) The First Presidency has the power to loose as well as to bind (see Matt 16:19).

Yes, Just-A-Guy, that is one of the quotes I was referring to, thanks for posting it. Others even more clear can be found by B.Y. in Journal of Discourses Vol. 17 & B.Y. in "A Few Words of Doctrine", Oct. 8, 1891. Also see the book, Discourses of B.Y., p. 196. And of course, many other modern prophets, especially Joseph Fielding Smith.

But we should know that even civil marriages carry heavy weight with God & he will not let a spouse desert & divorce a faithful spouse even then either. Someday if the faithful spouse keeps their part of the vows til the other returns & repents, they can both learn the Gospel & be sealed.

But our modern Prophets have taught that the same holds today with it not being possible to end a marriage w/o the other spouse's consent. Both must agree to end it, by consent or unfaithfulness. Though the guilty party will lose their exaltation for it. We must remember that we ourselves declare our worthiness or whether we are justified to divorce or not & be unsealed or resealed to someone else. Many people these days unfortunately deceive their leaders about their righteousness. The Prophets have said that many things will be undone & rearranged & put right in the next life when all the truth is known. Our sealings only apply if we entered into them worthily. It's very possible & common for people to be married & still be committing adultery, because they weren't justified to be divorced in the 1st place.

Edited by foreverafter
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I have to say I am a little confused about some things about temple marriage and cancellation of sealings. I am willing to stay for as long as it takes for him to figure things out as long as there is hope, but at some point based on his actions should he not return and not repent, don't I have to give up and move on? What if we get divorced and at some point after that I meet someone. My husband's moved on, he's not interested in working things out, maybe has even found someone else or whatever. Does the Lord hold me to being married to him forever? If I have kept my covenants and lived worthy and find someone else who is worthy and loves me isn't the Lord going to give me that opportunity? Maybe I'm just confused and need some clarification.

I understand I lot of what many of you are saying and I appreciate all the advice and concern. Every situation is unique and not the same for everyone. My husband grew up in the church and served a mission but has still never felt converted to the gospel which is the root of this problem I think. At this point he wants to separate to figure out us, but also to figure out himself. He feels he isn't worthy to be my husband. He believes if he can come to have faith and believe in the church then he come back 100%. His problem is I think that he wants perfect knowledge before he can exercise his faith. I don't know. He is quite the powerful talker and I am sometimes unsure of whether he's saying things to get a reaction or if it is all justification for what he has done.

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Foreverafter:

But our modern Prophets have taught that the same holds today with it not being possible to end a marriage w/o the other spouse's consent. Both must agree to end it, by consent or unfaithfulness.

Precisely.

Tls70, forgive my doctrinal nit-picking with Foreverafter.

I don't think anyone can make a straight-faced argument that you'll be "stuck" with your husband in the eternities if he is not living up to his covenants in the here-and-now.

The question you face is whether to wait for him in hopes that he'll come around, or move on with your life. To be blunt, the only one who can answer that for you is the Lord.

My opinion is that it's generally better to build your life on a foundation of what you can control, not around what you can't. Frankly, were I in your position, I'd probably leave unless I got a revelation that I should stay. But you have to do what's right for you.

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My husband's moved on, he's not interested in working things out, maybe has even found someone else or whatever. Does the Lord hold me to being married to him forever?

I don't understand. Let me ask a couple of questions to clarify your position:

  • Do you believe that a man who doesn't live his covenants and who doesn't make himself worthy to receive the atoning blood of Christ will nevertheless be exalted and live a celestial life, including celestial covenants such as marriage?
  • Do you believe that marriage in the hereafter is done on a compulsory basis -- that is, that you have no ongoing choice in the matter?
If your answer to either or both of these questions is "yes", then we have a fundamental dissimilarity in our understanding of how these things operate. If your answer to both is "no", then I don't see how the situation you ask about can even come up.
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What if we get divorced and at some point after that I meet someone. My husband's moved on, he's not interested in working things out, maybe has even found someone else or whatever. Does the Lord hold me to being married to him forever? If I have kept my covenants and lived worthy and find someone else who is worthy and loves me isn't the Lord going to give me that opportunity?

You have the choice, to either wait for him & keep your covenants to love & stay faithful to him no matter what he does (and this is what the Lord wants & has asked us to do through his prophets), for your husband has to return & repent at some point, either in this life or the next, & thus you help save him by your sealing, for he will need it, OR if he abandons you you "may" (to be sure you must ask HF) have the option of breaking your covenants & moving on to someone new, but whenever we break our marriage covenants, even when justified, we lose some of the highest eternal blessings, though I don't mean you can't acheive Exaltation still, you must ask H.F. about that.

Remember, if he divorces you, you still have the option of waiting for him, the divorce doesn't end the marriage, though waiting is the harder road for sure. But the blessings are worth it & you will recieve everything your heart desires if you do.

Your husband does not need to leave you to find his testimony, he is giving you a line, & excuse & he will lose any testimony he has by leaving you. So sorry you have to go through this.

"The line 'And they all lived happily ever after' is never written into the second act of a play. That line belongs in the third act, when the mysteries are solved & everything is put right" Elder Packer, Satelite broadcast, 7 May, 195, 1-2.

Edited by foreverafter
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TLS70. - Move into "Unconditonal Love" which is part and parcel of the gospel of perfection.

It means what it means. There is no doubt..it is an act of will at first. The marriage is meant by God to last forever. There is never any guarantee from God that a divorce on the earth is also a divorce in heaven.

"Uncondtional Love" is taught as Charity in the acts by the Apostles...It is greater than even faith and hope. There is no greater cleansing and binding and sealing power on the earth.

Fear and love and torments

1 John 4:18 - There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

It is said that one is what he eats...it is also true one becomes what He thinks. At first this is an act of will...and over a little time this Love blossoms and push out all darkness from ones heart and goes on to cleanse the relationship.

Proverbs 23:7 - For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart is not with thee.

Make up your mind to "love Unconditionally" your husband no matter what He does. Tell him so. Tell him that you shall not judge him and honor his authority.

Teach your husband about "unconditional Love" in words and by deeds. Learn all you can about Charity. This is the same love that God has for you...at least you can do is give it out to others.

The Love that dies is called "Conditional Love" and it is called darkness by God. All such loves do at one time fail..because the condition upon which we give our love changes so we do withdraw our love. Love built on conditions always carry fear with it...and with fear comes torments.

Job 3:25 - For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.

As you can see Job did not have perfect Love since, perfect love banish fears. So God tricked Satan into giving Job exactly what he feared so that He could Learn about "Unconditional Love".

I hope this helps. "Unconditional Love" is at first an act of will. It means to "love unconditionally" our spouse. It also means to not let the antics of our spouse get to us.

------------------------------

P/s Praising.

Unconditional Love really works. We are liberated from all conditions that used to demand our love. It is no longer a chore to love...We can love regardless of the situation. We ought not to forget to praise God for every little problems that come into our life. Even for our spouse that has strayed. For even in this, God can turn it around for our Good.

Peace be unto you

bert10

I posted a few weeks ago about my husband having an affair and facing church discipline. Well things have taken some turns I didn't expect and while it seemed at first it seemed he was willing to do what he needed to, now he is questioning the truth of the church and whether we love each other enough to work things out. He has asked that I agree with him at this time that he needs to move out to fix himself and figure out what he wants. He wants to figure out what he believes and if his feelings are strong enough for me. I am really struggling with the separation thing. While I have to agree with him that I wish he could figure things out and hopefully come to have a testimony of the church I'm scared for him and for us. I feel hopeless and discouraged and can't seem to get rid of these feelings. I know I need to be strong for my kids and show him I can be strong. (My depression problems in the past have been a big issue with him). He's not going to want to come back to a depressed miserable person. How do I cope with everything? How do I lift myself up? When I've prayed I've been giving the feeling that I will be okay no matter what happens and that I need to have hope and there is great hope still for our relationship. But even knowing all this I can't seem to move on. It is affecting my work, my kids, everything. I can't stop thinking about everything. I feel like I am going crazy. Help!

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You have the choice, to either wait for him & keep your covenants to love & stay faithful to him no matter what he does (and this is what the Lord wants & has asked us to do through his prophets)

With all due respect, Foreverafter, I don't read any of the sources you've cited, either here or anywhere else on these boards, as making that claim.

Have you ever been in this situation?

You are asking tls70 to walk into a uniquely excruciating type of hell, and I don't think it's fair to demand that she do so simply because that's your interpretation of an obscure quote you cannot or will not take the time to furnish in its entirety.

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I don't understand. Let me ask a couple of questions to clarify your position:

  • Do you believe that a man who doesn't live his covenants and who doesn't make himself worthy to receive the atoning blood of Christ will nevertheless be exalted and live a celestial life, including celestial covenants such as marriage?
  • Do you believe that marriage in the hereafter is done on a compulsory basis -- that is, that you have no ongoing choice in the matter?
If your answer to either or both of these questions is "yes", then we have a fundamental dissimilarity in our understanding of how these things operate. If your answer to both is "no", then I don't see how the situation you ask about can even come up.

My personal answer would be no. I was just confused with some of the advice I was getting and asking for some clarification. I felt like I was getting told in some ways that I was obligated to wait forever, no matter what. I am willing to wait to see if things will change, but I will not and cannot feel obligated to do that should he "move on" or not choose to make himself worthy.

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You have the choice, to either wait for him & keep your covenants to love & stay faithful to him no matter what he does (and this is what the Lord wants & has asked us to do through his prophets)

I'm going to have to ask you for your source here foreverafter. The Elder Packer quote you gave certainly says no such thing...

Stay married "no matter what he does" sounds more like old-style Catholicism or even Islam, than my faith.

LM

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I'm going to have to ask you for your source here foreverafter. The Elder Packer quote you gave certainly says no such thing...

Stay married "no matter what he does" sounds more like old-style Catholicism or even Islam, than my faith.

LM

I'm sure you agree that the woman has the option to do so, for many spouses do stay with unfaithful unrighteous spouses until they repent in this life or the next. But a woman may not be obligated to, even though that is what the Prophets plead for her to do.

As spouse's we have been asked to "never give up on our spouse" & never break our sacred temple covenants, even though we may be justified to. Justified does not mean 'should' but 'could' w/o some of the eternal consequences for doing so. But we would lose some blessings if we broke our covenants to our spouse & so the Prophets don't want us to lose any, so they ask us to have Unconditional True Love for our spouse no matter what they do, for they know that eventually, if the spouse doesn't straighten out in this life, Heavenly Father has a 100% guaranteed program to help them repent in the next life.

True Love is exactly that, True Love, & it never ends or gives up & it conquers all, even the Adversary's hold on our spouse. The Prophets have said that if we really love our spouse we would never even consider leaving them, but want to stay, if even from a safe distance, & help them repent someday.

Here are some references to start your study on these things:

Elder Holland talks here about how Christ hopes we all have the True Love for our spouse that he shows to us, as he never gives up on us. "How Do I Love Thee", BYU Devotional, Feb. 15, 2000.

Elder Scott speak about never giving up on our wicked spouses: CR Apr. 1988.

Pres. Hinckley asks us to also not give up on our loved ones (spouses) if they become unrighteous because as Joseph Smith taught, we can help bring them to the Cel. Kingdom someday if we stay faithful to them : Jordon Utah South Regional Conf. Mar. 2, 1997.

Pres. Joseph Fielding Smith says that marriage is to be eternal & that that family order should never be broken. CR Apr. 1961,50.

Pres. Kimball says True Love never tires or wanes, but lives on forever - Teachings of SWK, p.248

John A. Widtsoe teaches that 'Sacrifice' is the evidence of True Love. CR Apr. 1943,38.

When you study what the Prophets have said about marriage & true love, you come to see the overwhelming evidence of their pleading that we keep our covenants even if our spouse doesn't, for the grand reason that our sealing to them can help save them when nothing else will. For if we leave them, they have little hope of making it back to the Cel. Kingdom without a righteous spouses help & love & sealing. For most errant spouses don't repent in this life.

After all this, is a woman obligated to stay no matter what? I can't say. But there are the children's rights to an intact marriage Joseph Fielding Smith warns us, which come before a parents needs & welfare.

Edited by foreverafter
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