I Have Some Questions


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Guest JeffreyLloyd

Originally posted by Jenda@Feb 11 2005, 09:44 AM

It might be slightly better to post questions to do with church-related topics in the Gospel Forum (that is the first place most people go). I could just move this topic there if you just want to post your questions here.

Please do :)
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Originally posted by Snow@Feb 13 2005, 12:50 PM

Since Jeffrey isn't fullfilling his duty, I guess I'll have to ask the questions:

What's so Great about Apostacy?

and

If I aposticize, can I still date Mormon chicks?

Apostasy means you are moving down the ladder of success. That is what is so great bout Apostacy.

You can date as many Mormon chicks as will have you, which is probably 0.

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I'd like to know what you think about the words of Jacob, fourth chapter:

15 And now I, Jacob, am led on by the Spirit unto prophesying; for I perceive by the workings of the Spirit which is in me, that by the stumbling of the Jews they will reject the stone upon which they might build and have safe foundation.

16 But behold, according to the scriptures, this stone shall become the great, and the last, and the only sure foundation, upon which the Jews can build.

17 And now, my beloved, how is it possible that these, after having rejected the sure foundation, can ever build upon it, that it may become the head of their corner?

Now if Christ is the "Stone", the "Sure Foundation", and he is the "Last" foundation, how can there be a new, restored foundation?

Was the foundation laid by Christ not good enough?

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Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Feb 16 2005, 12:29 PM

I'd like to know what you think about the words of Jacob, fourth chapter:

15 And now I, Jacob, am led on by the Spirit unto prophesying; for I perceive by the workings of the Spirit which is in me, that by the stumbling of the Jews they will reject the stone upon which they might build and have safe foundation.

16 But behold, according to the scriptures, this stone shall become the great, and the last, and the only sure foundation, upon which the Jews can build.

17 And now, my beloved, how is it possible that these, after having rejected the sure foundation, can ever build upon it, that it may become the head of their corner?

Now if Christ is the "Stone", the "Sure Foundation", and he is the "Last" foundation, how can there be a new, restored foundation?

Was the foundation laid by Christ not good enough?

There isn't a new, restored foundation. The restoration was built upon the original foundation.
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Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Feb 16 2005, 01:29 PM

I'd like to know what you think about the words of Jacob, fourth chapter:

15 And now I, Jacob, am led on by the Spirit unto prophesying; for I perceive by the workings of the Spirit which is in me, that by the stumbling of the Jews they will reject the stone upon which they might build and have safe foundation.

16 But behold, according to the scriptures, this stone shall become the great, and the last, and the only sure foundation, upon which the Jews can build.

17 And now, my beloved, how is it possible that these, after having rejected the sure foundation, can ever build upon it, that it may become the head of their corner?

Now if Christ is the "Stone", the "Sure Foundation", and he is the "Last" foundation, how can there be a new, restored foundation?

Was the foundation laid by Christ not good enough?

The foundation hasn't changed, just been restored ~ meaning the priesthood or Christ's power to rule on earth through men. RIGHTEOUS men.

1 Cor. 3

8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own areward according to his own labour.

9 For we are alabourers• together with God: ye are God’s bhusbandry•, ye are God’s building.

10 According to the agrace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11 For other afoundation• can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

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"There isn't a new, restored foundation. The restoration was built upon the original foundation."

That's a nice way to skirt around the issue, but it hardly answers the problem at hand.

We all know that the "Foundation" is Christ.

We know that Christ is also the "Rock" of the Church. Which is the same as saying He is the Foundation, or in other words, He is the Stone that the builders rejected. He is the Corner Stone of the Foundation of the Church.

We also know that Revelation is the Rock spoken of by Christ when he said to St. Peter: "Thou are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church."

Joseph Smith and all the "prophets" of Mormonism have taught that Revelation ceased in the Church, hence the need to restore it (that's why you do not consider yourselves Protestants, but restorationists!).

Hence, according to Mormon dogma, the Rock, the Foundation was destroyed. (as opposed to Protestants who claim, as PD stated, to have built a new superstructure on the original foundation...)

No Dawn, you've not built upon the original Foundation. You've poured yourselves a new (f)oundation, and built up a new ©hurch, contrary to your own Book of Mormon.

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Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Feb 20 2005, 08:29 PM

"There isn't a new, restored foundation. The restoration was built upon the original foundation."

That's a nice way to skirt around the issue, but it hardly answers the problem at hand.

We all know that the "Foundation" is Christ.

We know that Christ is also the "Rock" of the Church. Which is the same as saying He is the Foundation, or in other words, He is the Stone that the builders rejected. He is the Corner Stone of the Foundation of the Church.

We also know that Revelation is the Rock spoken of by Christ when he said to St. Peter: "Thou are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church."

Joseph Smith and all the "prophets" of Mormonism have taught that Revelation ceased in the Church, hence the need to restore it (that's why you do not consider yourselves Protestants, but restorationists!).

Hence, according to Mormon dogma, the Rock, the Foundation was destroyed. (as opposed to Protestants who claim, as PD stated, to have built a new superstructure on the original foundation...)

No Dawn, you've not built upon the original Foundation. You've poured yourselves a new (f)oundation, and built up a new ©hurch, contrary to your own Book of Mormon.

God did not stop revealing, man stopped listening. That is the perspective you need to look at things from.

And to this day, man (outside of the restoration) continues to believe that God no longer speaks to us. That He has said all He needs to, stopping with Revelations. That He no longer loves and cares for His children and lets them wander around, lost and blind, because He no longer cares enough to speak to them.

Some God you worship. :(

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Originally posted by Dawn

God did not stop revealing, man stopped listening. That is the perspective you need to look at things from.

And to this day, man (outside of the restoration) continues to believe that God no longer speaks to us. That He has said all He needs to, stopping with Revelations. That He no longer loves and cares for His children and lets them wander around, lost and blind, because He no longer cares enough to speak to them.

Some God you worship. 

No Dawn, that's not what the Orthodox Church teaches.

Prophets have existed in the Church since the New Testament and before. The Priesthood never went away. Revelation never went away. Prophets never went away, it's just that your forefathers stopped looking for them, and thus you were led astray by those same false prophets and false christ's our Lord warned us about.

forgive me... :(

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Originally posted by Snow+Feb 21 2005, 09:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Feb 21 2005, 09:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--ExMormon-Jason@Feb 20 2005, 07:29 PM

No Dawn, you've not built upon the original Foundation.  You've poured yourselves a new (f)oundation, and built up a new ©hurch, contrary to your own Book of Mormon.

Shoot, there goes my testimony.

He was only talking to me, Snow. Your testimony is still good. ;):lol: B)

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Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason+Feb 21 2005, 10:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ExMormon-Jason @ Feb 21 2005, 10:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Dawn

God did not stop revealing, man stopped listening. That is the perspective you need to look at things from.

And to this day, man (outside of the restoration) continues to believe that God no longer speaks to us. That He has said all He needs to, stopping with Revelations. That He no longer loves and cares for His children and lets them wander around, lost and blind, because He no longer cares enough to speak to them.

Some God you worship. 

No Dawn, that's not what the Orthodox Church teaches.

Prophets have existed in the Church since the New Testament and before. The Priesthood never went away. Revelation never went away. Prophets never went away, it's just that your forefathers stopped looking for them, and thus you were led astray by those same false prophets and false christ's our Lord warned us about.

forgive me... :(

Whether or not it is what they teach, it is what they believe since the canon of scripture closed at Revelations. If He continues to speak today (or even 500 or 1000 years ago), where is that revelation? What was it He said?

Did He instruct the leaders of the church to kill all those who would not convert?

Did He give away His power to forgive sins to man, who holds no power in his hands?

Did He instruct the fathers to create creeds to divide believers, creating better-than-thou Christians and lesser-than-thou Christians? (Sort of what they do on ChristianForums.)

I want to hear at least one revelation God gave to man over the course of the last 2000 years.

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Whether or not it is what they teach, it is what they believe since the canon of scripture closed at Revelations.

It did? Says who?

Dawn, I believe that you've mistakenly applied the PROTESTANT doctrine of Sola Scriptura to the Orthodox Church. We don't believe in Sola Scriptura.

If He continues to speak today (or even 500 or 1000 years ago), where is that revelation? What was it He said?

Ever read the Church Fathers? We accept their writings as inspired of the Holy Sprit. We believe that Saints speak by the Holy Spirit. That is revelation. It need not begin with the formal "Thus Saith The Lord" to be the word of God.

Did He instruct the leaders of the church to kill all those who would not convert?

I believe you've inadvertenly applied the Inquisition to Orthodoxy. We had no Inquisition.

Did He give away His power to forgive sins to man, who holds no power in his hands?

Of course not.

Did He instruct the fathers to create creeds to divide believers, creating better-than-thou Christians and lesser-than-thou Christians? (Sort of what they do on ChristianForums.)

The Oecumenical Councils were inspired of the Holy Spirit. They rightly divide the word of God. Those who find themselves at odds with the Creeds are at odds with God. It's not a "better than you" attitude. It's a "truth" verses "falsehood" stance. Choose you this day whom you will serve.

I want to hear at least one revelation God gave to man over the course of the last 2000 years.

You have to listen first.

"Seek and ye shall find."

Then I recommend you study the Seven Oecumenical Councils. They are God's will to mankind, being inspired of the Holy Spirit.

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Then I recommend you study the Seven Oecumenical Councils. They are God's will to mankind, being inspired of the Holy Spirit.

Are you speaking about Iraneas(sp?), et. al.? When were their works canonized? Saying someone speaks or acts under the influence of the Holy Spirit is not quite the same thing as canonized scripture. Mother Teresa spoke and worked under the influence of the Holy Spirit, yet her writings have not been canonized (and probably never will be).

I have to admit that I have only read bits and pieces of the works of the church fathers, but, IMO, they have not added to canon, they have merely discussed the canon and provide their insight. Just as some of the theologians of today do.

All creeds do is divide. God is not a God of division or contention. Creeds are not of God. They are of man, and they're fruits are strife and hatred.

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Are you speaking about Iraneas(sp?), et. al.? When were their works canonized? Saying someone speaks or acts under the influence of the Holy Spirit is not quite the same thing as canonized scripture.

Eastern Orthodox do not differentiate as you suggest. The "Canon" of scripture is meant as it was intended, a "rule" or guide for truth. It does not mean, as you suggest, that it comprises the whole of God's inspiration to Man. There is no difference to Orthodox between the words of the prophet Isaiah, and the words of St. Seraphim of Sarov. It's all God's truth.

Honestly Dawn, you'll have to rework your arguments with me. Eastern Orthodox do not work within the rigidity of Western Christians (eg Roman Catholics, most Protestants, or neo-protestants like Mormons).

I have to admit that I have only read bits and pieces of the works of the church fathers, but, IMO, they have not added to canon, they have merely discussed the canon and provide their insight. Just as some of the theologians of today do.

The Truth doesn't change, Dawn. As the Bible says, there is nothing new under the sun.

All creeds do is divide. God is not a God of division or contention. Creeds are not of God. They are of man, and they're fruits are strife and hatred. 

Creeds are the will of God. They only divide the Sheep from the Goats.

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I thought you were now Roman Catholic. Are you rather Orthodox, like in Eastern Orthodox?

I was initially in the RCIA classes, but I had too many problems with Roman Catholic Dogmas. I find it impossible to accept "new" dogma. I rejected "Immaculate Conception," "Papal Infalliability," "Purgatory," the "Filioque" addition to the Nicene creed, and "Papal Primacy".

That naturally led me to an earlier version of Catholicism: Eastern Orthodoxy. Otherwise called the Greek Church as opposed to the Latin Church.

It's a much better place to be.

Im not baptised yet, but I was made a Catechumen three weeks ago. Im not sure if I'll be ready to be baptised by Pascha or not, it depends on what Father Basil says. (He's the Priest at the Antiochian Orthodox Church in SLC.)

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Honestly Dawn, you'll have to rework your arguments with me. Eastern Orthodox do not work within the rigidity of Western Christians (eg Roman Catholics, most Protestants, or neo-protestants like Mormons).

ummmmm.................... I am not the one presenting the argument. I am responding to the question. I guess you are in the same place here that I am over on CF. Nobody knows what you believe so nobody speaks to your arguments. How does it feel?

Let me restate. Creeds are not of God. Did not Christ go out of His way to teach the Samaritan as He did the Jew? Did Christ throw stones at anyone and tell them they were not welcome because they were sinners or believed something different? Did not Christ perform miracles for the Romans (His "masters") when He could have just turned a blind eye their direction for the ways they treated the Jews? Creeds cause the type of division that Christ sought to heal.

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  I guess you are in the same place here that I am over on CF. Nobody knows what you believe so nobody speaks to your arguments. How does it feel?

I don't spend much time in "Unorthodox Thoeology" anymore. So I can't say what you've been through lately. Though I will add that Im more than willing to teach anyone here what it is that I believe if asked. Frankly, I've had to learn so much lately, that I hardly feel qualified, but I'm willing to try (2000 years of history is quite a bit to swallow if you know what I mean...).

Let me restate. Creeds are not of God.

Okay....why do you personally believe that they are not of God? Have you read all of them? Is there some reason why you believe that the Holy Spirit didn't inspire the Bishops who helped compose the Creeds?

Did not Christ go out of His way to teach the Samaritan as He did the Jew? Did Christ throw stones at anyone and tell them they were not welcome because they were sinners or believed something different? Did not Christ perform miracles for the Romans (His "masters") when He could have just turned a blind eye their direction for the ways they treated the Jews?

What does that have to do with the Creeds? Im beginning to wonder if you've actually read any of them at all.

If you'd like to start another thread dealing with Christ's bias toward Jews and overall neglect of Samaritans and utter distain of Canaanites and other gentiles, I'd be happy to contribute.

Creeds cause the type of division that Christ sought to heal.

Dawn, I believe in the entire Gospel, not just the parts I feel comfortable with. So when Christ says: "Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God" (St. Matt 5:9) I, happy and I believe Him. When he says: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law." (St Matt 11:34-35) Im happy. Why? Because it's Christ who said it.

Unless you are siding with the so-called Jesus Seminar and arguing that some of Christ's words really weren't spoken by Him, then Im not sure how you can support this type of position.

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Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Feb 22 2005, 05:37 PM

I thought you were now Roman Catholic. Are you rather Orthodox, like in Eastern Orthodox?

I was initially in the RCIA classes, but I had too many problems with Roman Catholic Dogmas. I find it impossible to accept "new" dogma. I rejected "Immaculate Conception," "Papal Infalliability," "Purgatory," the "Filioque" addition to the Nicene creed, and "Papal Primacy".

That naturally led me to an earlier version of Catholicism: Eastern Orthodoxy. Otherwise called the Greek Church as opposed to the Latin Church.

It's a much better place to be.

Im not baptised yet, but I was made a Catechumen three weeks ago. Im not sure if I'll be ready to be baptised by Pascha or not, it depends on what Father Basil says. (He's the Priest at the Antiochian Orthodox Church in SLC.)

No offense Jason, but do you ever get the feeling that you are being tossed, to and fro, with every wind of doctrine?
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No offense Jason, but do you ever get the feeling that you are being tossed, to and fro, with every wind of doctrine?

It may appear to you that this is the case, but I disagree. Searching for The Truth is not an easy thing, and when looking at different religions, you're bound to appear as though you're being tossed around. Having found what I believe is really and truly the original church of Christ, Im not longer feeling tossed.

The real question, Snow, is do you feel tossed to and fro just remaining in Mormonism? I mean really, seems every time you turn around, there's been a change in doctrine or policy or ritual practice (like the change in the anointing ceremony last month!)

Talk about a faith that's tossing it's membership around... :(

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