My take on religion- Should I be a Mormon?

[bytor2112]

"What's so wonderful about the cross?"

I have a hard time believing you would even ask this. It has everything to do about christianity. If you don't know it by now I am not sure I can help you. It is only by Jesus and the Cross that you have a way to God. The Cross is the epicenter, I am astonished that you do not know that. I will pray for you, Jim

The cross....crucifixion was the means by which our Lord was put to death. I understand that many Christians sects identify the cross as a symbol of their faith, however, Christ did so much more than just die. In Gethsemane he took upon himself the sins of all mankind....on conditions of repentance and on the cross at Golgotha he was put to death and arose three days later.

The cross is not the epicenter, the Atonement is the epicenter. It is the greatest event in the history of the world. Less focusing on his death and more focusing on the message of his life is what is truly needed here.

Here is an excerpt from a favorite talk that describes very well those blessed events:

Two thousand years ago, outside Jerusalem’s walls, there was a pleasant garden spot, Gethsemane by name, where Jesus and his intimate friends were wont to retire for pondering and prayer.

There Jesus taught his disciples the doctrines of the kingdom, and all of them communed with Him who is the Father of us all, in whose ministry they were engaged, and on whose errand they served.

This sacred spot, like Eden where Adam dwelt, like Sinai from whence Jehovah gave his laws, like Calvary where the Son of God gave his life a ransom for many, this holy ground is where the Sinless Son of the Everlasting Father took upon himself the sins of all men on condition of repentance.

We do not know, we cannot tell, no mortal mind can conceive the full import of what Christ did in Gethsemane.

We know he sweat great gouts of blood from every pore as he drained the dregs of that bitter cup his Father had given him.

We know he suffered, both body and spirit, more than it is possible for man to suffer, except it be unto death.

We know that in some way, incomprehensible to us, his suffering satisfied the demands of justice, ransomed penitent souls from the pains and penalties of sin, and made mercy available to those who believe in his holy name.

We know that he lay prostrate upon the ground as the pains and agonies of an infinite burden caused him to tremble and would that he might not drink the bitter cup.

We know that an angel came from the courts of glory to strengthen him in his ordeal, and we suppose it was mighty Michael, who foremost fell that mortal man might be.

As near as we can judge, these infinite agonies—this suffering beyond compare—continued for some three or four hours.

After this—his body then wrenched and drained of strength—he confronted Judas and the other incarnate devils, some from the very Sanhedrin itself; and he was led away with a rope around his neck, as a common criminal, to be judged by the arch-criminals who as Jews sat in Aaron’s seat and who as Romans wielded Caesar’s power.

They took him to Annas, to Caiaphas, to Pilate, to Herod, and back to Pilate. He was accused, cursed, and smitten. Their foul saliva ran down his face as vicious blows further weakened his pain-engulfed body.

With reeds of wrath they rained blows upon his back. Blood ran down his face as a crown of thorns pierced his trembling brow.

But above it all he was scourged, scourged with forty stripes save one, scourged with a multithonged whip into whose leather strands sharp bones and cutting metals were woven.

Many died from scourging alone, but he rose from the sufferings of the scourge that he might die an ignominious death upon the cruel cross of Calvary.

Then he carried his own cross until he collapsed from the weight and pain and mounting agony of it all.

Finally, on a hill called Calvary—again, it was outside Jerusalem’s walls—while helpless disciples looked on and felt the agonies of near death in their own bodies, the Roman soldiers laid him upon the cross.

With great mallets they drove spikes of iron through his feet and hands and wrists. Truly he was wounded for our transgressions and bruised for our iniquities.

Then the cross was raised that all might see and gape and curse and deride. This they did, with evil venom, for three hours from 9:00 a.m. to noon.

Then the heavens grew black. Darkness covered the land for the space of three hours, as it did among the Nephites. There was a mighty storm, as though the very God of Nature was in agony.

And truly he was, for while he was hanging on the cross for another three hours, from noon to 3:00 p.m., all the infinite agonies and merciless pains of Gethsemane recurred.

And, finally, when the atoning agonies had taken their toll—when the victory had been won, when the Son of God had fulfilled the will of his Father in all things—then he said, “It is finished” (John 19:30), and he voluntarily gave up the ghost.

As the peace and comfort of a merciful death freed him from the pains and sorrows of mortality, he entered the paradise of God.

When he had made his soul an offering for sin, he was prepared to see his seed, according to the messianic word.

These, consisting of all the holy prophets and faithful Saints from ages past; these, comprising all who had taken upon them his name, and who, being spiritually begotten by him, had become his sons and his daughters, even as it is with us; all these were assembled in the spirit world, there to see his face and hear his voice.

After some thirty-eight or forty hours—three days as the Jews measured time—our Blessed Lord came to the Arimathaean’s tomb, where his partially embalmed body had been placed by Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathaea.

Then, in a way incomprehensible to us, he took up that body which had not yet seen corruption and arose in that glorious immortality which made him like his resurrected Father.

He then received all power in heaven and on earth, obtained eternal exaltation, appeared unto Mary Magdalene and many others, and ascended into heaven, there to sit down on the right hand of God the Father Almighty and to reign forever in eternal glory.

His rising from death on the third day crowned the Atonement. Again, in some way incomprehensible to us, the effects of his resurrection pass upon all men so that all shall rise from the grave.

As Adam brought death, so Christ brought life; as Adam is the father of mortality, so Christ is the father of immortality.

And without both, mortality and immortality, man cannot work out his salvation and ascend to those heights beyond the skies where gods and angels dwell forever in eternal glory.

Edited April 3, 2009 by bytor2112

[Just_A_Guy]

It's "Christianity", Jim. Not "Crosstianity".

[Jim108]

I do not know how to respond to you. You are missing a great deal when you minimize the Cross. I am alone here. I know that. The Cross is everything. It is when Jesus completes the Job of dying for our sins. He completes the prophecy. It is only by this act that we can connect to God. You are the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints. Why will you not acknowledge Jesus for who he is. Jesus is God, He is the way...the only way to salvation. Why will you not let him take his place in your church. I can see him knocking at your door. I am sorry for the tone of my voice. I love you all and I thank you for letting me speak on your site, but this one subject is to important to ignore. It has never been about religion. It is about Jesus. Only Jesus. Thanks for letting me vent. Go ahead and tell me why I am wrong, fire away, Jim

[Dravin]

The Cross is everything.

No, its a chunk of wood, one that most likely doesn't even exsist anymore. Christ is everything, his atonement is everything, which while culminating on the cross was not accomplished by the cross. The phsyical instrument of his death is not everything he who died on the cross is, not that which 'killed'* him.

I think there is a miscommunication here. You say cross and you think of something symbolizing his atonement, a Mormon says cross and they think of a couple pieces of wood, the cross is only important as the means of his death as it relates to the fulfillment of prophecy.

* Nothing on this earth could have taken Christ's life, it was given. The cross didn't kill him, he gave up his life while on it.

[Jim108]

No, its a chunk of wood, one that most likely doesn't even exsist anymore. Christ is everything, his atonement is everything, which while culminating on the cross was not accomplished by the cross. The phsyical instrument of his death is not everything he who died on the cross is, not that which 'killed'* him.

I think there is a miscommunication here. You say cross and you think of something symbolizing his atonement, a Mormon says cross and they think of a couple pieces of wood, the cross is only important as the means of his death as it relates to the fulfillment of prophecy.

* Nothing on this earth could have taken Christ's life, it was given. The cross didn't kill him, he gave up his life while on it.

When I say cross I mean the act that it represents, Jim

[Dravin]

That's fine, just understand that in LDS Theology the term Atonement is used to describe the sacrifice Christ made, not the term, "The Cross."

Isn't all the myriad words that we have our own definitions for that other people have different definitions for fun? :)

[Just_A_Guy]

When I say cross I mean the act that it represents, Jim

Ah. That makes a bit more sense.

[GingerGolden]

When I say cross I mean the act that it represents, Jim

Jim, We understand what you mean, or at least I do, and I'm sure others do as well.

What they are trying to tell you is that it didn't stop at the cross, it went further.

Much further...

We focus on the life of Christ and not so much his death, since he lives now.

The cross is a symbol of suffering and death as well as shame. It was the mode of death that came to him in the times and environment he lived in.

I don't think any of us have turned our backs on the symbolic meaning of his death.

The cross is a symbol of death.

He's no longer on the cross.

Jesus the Christ Lives.

From my understanding his suffering purpose was done in the Garden.

He got up and walked out of the tomb.

Pray about it...

[Guest JHM-in-Bountiful]

JHM,

Have you prayed about it?

If it's worth worrying about, it's worth praying about.

I have not prayed since March 9th. I have no motivation to do anything church related anymore. My bishop and a member of the ward has tried calling me. I'm ignoring thier calls. One of the bishop's counselors contacted me through facebook. I did not go into details but said I need a break from the church. Things are going downhill at a rapid rate concerning my feelings with the church.

December 2008- 9 months on a waiting list for an apt in Bountiful. I cancelled it due to the cost of living being higher than here in Iowa.

January 2009. My grandmother passes away.

February 2009 My addiction to porn started after 19 months of "self control"

February 2009 My father passes away. ( he rebaptized me in July 2008)

March 2009 Was with all LDS side of my family for father's funeral. I did not feel the spirit anymore. I was at the Salt Lake City airport and witnessed a homecoming for a returning missionary. I thought to myself he is back to everyday life now. That's how I currently feel. Daily living with any feelings towards the church.

I was doing so good. I paid this years tithing the first week in January. I was asked to do a calling involving some type of ward record keeping on a computer. I was asked in February. This year I helped missionaries teach lessons and participate in a baptism/confirmation for a new member. I helped dress my father and gave the family prayer at his funeral.

I brought home his other temple garments in hopes they would motivate to recieve a full temple recomend this July. I have the temple garments hidden out of sight. I can't bring myself to look at them. My family sensed something was wrong when I was posting depressing feelings about my involvment in the church on facebook.. They even contacted the non-member side of my family. I deleted those comments.

I'm in counseling, group and individual, and have minimized how I really feel. They notice a change in me. I'm even on meds for anxiety and depression. I thought maybe I should be hospitalized. There has been one thing that has kept me going to the hospital.

I'm going on a 2 week vacation to Australia this month. I was afraid If I checked myself into the hospital, the money I spent on the trip would have gone down the tubes. It appears I'm the one going down the tubes.

The conversation with the guy that started this who subject/topic. also did not help.

WELL I JUST DUMPED A WHOLE BUNCH OF STUFF ON THIS THREAD. ALL I INTENDED TO DO WAS TO ANSWER THE QUESTION OF HAVE I PRAYED ABOUT THE MATTER. AGAIN I STOPPED PRAYING ABOUT A MONTH AGO. I have no motivation to do anything.

[Justice]

When I say cross I mean the act that it represents, Jim

I know you do. I hesitated to even say it. I don't doubt your love for the Lord, nor your conviction to honor and serve Him.

I just believe there is so much more to it than needing the cross to see Christ.

Christ is in the love we show to each other. He's in the kind acts of service (charity) we do for each other.

If it were not for what He did in Gethsemane AND on the cross, it wouldn't make any difference if we loved or hated each other. There would be no hope for mankind.

But, it wasn't the cross, as has been so eloquently stated by others before me, it was Christ.

We come to Christ, not to the cross.

[Justice]

JHM, it doesn't matter what you do. I love you anyway and I've never met you. I'm confident those what know you love you even more.

I know we're on-line, but if there is anything I can do for you please send me a PM and let me know what it is.

I know that with Christ you can get through this.

[bytebear]

Regarding the cross. LDS do not abhor the cross. LDS military chaplains wear the cross to signify they are Christians. The church does not use the cross in architecture, but it does have depictions of the cross in art when appropriate, and even some older coverted chapels do have crosses in their stained glass and other design. Rather than use the cross to distinguish themselves, they use their actions. This is also why holy rainment are worn under clothing instead of outwardly, because covenants are private and personal, and it avoids boisterous displays

President GB Hinkley said " “I do not wish to give offense to any of my Christian colleagues who use the cross on the steeples of their cathedrals and at the altars of their chapels, who wear it on their vestments, and imprint it on their books and other literature. But for us, the cross is the symbol of the dying Christ, while our message is a declaration of the Living Christ. ... the lives of our people must become the most meaningful expression of our faith and, in fact, therefore, the symbol of our worship.

” LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Symbol of Our Faith

Here are some wonderful examples of how we use the symbol of the cross in worship:

LDS.org - Family Chapter Detail - I Stand All Amazed 

LDS.org - Family Chapter Detail - There Is a Green Hill Far Away 

LDS.org - Family Chapter Detail - How Great the Wisdom and the Love 

LDS.org - Family Chapter Detail - Upon the Cross of Calvary 

LDS.org - Family Chapter Detail - Thy Will, O Lord, Be Done 

LDS.org - Family Chapter Detail - In Memory of the Crucified 

LDS.org - Family Chapter Detail - Behold the Great Redeemer Die 

LDS.org - Family Chapter Detail - He Died! The Great Redeemer Died 

LDS.org - Family Chapter Detail - In Remembrance of Thy Suffering 

LDS.org - Family Chapter Detail - We’ll Sing All Hail to Jesus’ Name 

LDS.org - Liahona Article - Carry Your Cross

LDS.org - Family Chapter Detail - Again, Our Dear Redeeming Lord 

LDS.org - New Era Article - Amazed at the Love Jesus Offers Me

LDS.org - Family Chapter Detail - O Lord of Hosts 

LDS.org - Family Chapter Detail - ’Tis Sweet To Sing the Matchless Love 

LDS.org - Family Chapter Detail - O God, the Eternal Father 

LDS.org - Topic Definition - Atonement of Jesus Christ "Jesus's atoning sacrifice took place in the Garden of Gethsemane and on the cross at Calvary."

[Guest missingsomething]

Anyone can be baptized.... anyone can take the sacrament... anyone can mouth the words "I know this church is true"...anyone can go through the motions. If your heart has not been broken and you are not sincere and contrite.. if you arent willing to surrender your wants and addictions.... if you are willing to alter oneself to do better, be better...

But unless you truly believe you will NOT receive the blessings promised the faithful. You can fool people - you can even feel the spirit from time to time... but you can never fool your Heavenly Father who knows you intimately.

I would say - if you want to keep going to church - go. NO one that goes there is perfect - everyone can improve... and I'd rather you there than no where... but be warned that if you go to inject doubt, that would be a judgement against you.

Its ok that you don't totally believe, just know then that you will not receive the blessings of the one who have accepted and submitted themselves.

My question JHM - do you WANT to believe fully? Or are you satisfied where you are? Question yourself - is the problems that you have with the church stem from sins within your own life and it is easier to believe "its not all right"? I dont know and Im not just asking you but just in general.. I have found that when someone has a problem with a principle, it normally means they have struggled with that principle.

Just keep praying and keep trying to improve.

[Guest missingsomething]

I have not prayed since March 9th. I have no motivation to do anything church related anymore. My bishop and a member of the ward has tried calling me. I'm ignoring thier calls. One of the bishop's counselors contacted me through facebook. I did not go into details but said I need a break from the church. Things are going downhill at a rapid rate concerning my feelings with the church.

December 2008- 9 months on a waiting list for an apt in Bountiful. I cancelled it due to the cost of living being higher than here in Iowa.

January 2009. My grandmother passes away.

February 2009 My addiction to porn started after 19 months of "self control"

February 2009 My father passes away. ( he rebaptized me in July 2008)

March 2009 Was with all LDS side of my family for father's funeral. I did not feel the spirit anymore. I was at the Salt Lake City airport and witnessed a homecoming for a returning missionary. I thought to myself he is back to everyday life now. That's how I currently feel. Daily living with any feelings towards the church.

I was doing so good. I paid this years tithing the first week in January. I was asked to do a calling involving some type of ward record keeping on a computer. I was asked in February. This year I helped missionaries teach lessons and participate in a baptism/confirmation for a new member. I helped dress my father and gave the family prayer at his funeral.

I brought home his other temple garments in hopes they would motivate to recieve a full temple recomend this July. I have the temple garments hidden out of sight. I can't bring myself to look at them. My family sensed something was wrong when I was posting depressing feelings about my involvment in the church on facebook.. They even contacted the non-member side of my family. I deleted those comments.

I'm in counseling, group and individual, and have minimized how I really feel. They notice a change in me. I'm even on meds for anxiety and depression. I thought maybe I should be hospitalized. There has been one thing that has kept me going to the hospital.

I'm going on a 2 week vacation to Australia this month. I was afraid If I checked myself into the hospital, the money I spent on the trip would have gone down the tubes. It appears I'm the one going down the tubes.

The conversation with the guy that started this who subject/topic. also did not help.

WELL I JUST DUMPED A WHOLE BUNCH OF STUFF ON THIS THREAD. ALL I INTENDED TO DO WAS TO ANSWER THE QUESTION OF HAVE I PRAYED ABOUT THE MATTER. AGAIN I STOPPED PRAYING ABOUT A MONTH AGO. I have no motivation to do anything.

JHM - remember that Christ does not walk away from you. Are you better off from not praying? It sounds, pardon me because I do NOT want to come off harsh here, but it sounds to me that you slipped...and the more you slip the less you feel worthy - the more work it feels like to do the right.... so if you dont pray, you cant feel as guilty. And now that you have walked away from your faith in God and turned to all things that you know or have been taught is helpful -you will not feel the Spirit. This is something that you need to want. And I dare say, Satan can be very enticing and can get you one step at a time. I have found in my personal experience as well as the experience of my friends and peers - that eventually, if you ever had a testimony, eventually -when you hit the bottom, the worse life can dish out... then you will turn back to God. When times are bad, we are most often found on our knees.. We have to crawl before we can walk.

And something else.... there are times in just about EVERYONE's life when we dont "feel" like praying, getting up to go to church, serving in our calling, substaining from sin - but how you overcome those dragging times will define you and your happiness. You have essentially walked away from God - are you happy? are you happy with yourself/life/direction? If not, then pray. Even if you dont feel like it. Remember, there is NOTHING you can do that will make Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ abandon you.

Good luck