Church court for teenager


pushka
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I've heard that there is a 15 year old girl, in the LDS church, who has fallen pregnant. She has been persuaded to go ahead with the pregnancy, however her parents have been advised that she will be subject to a church court. Adoption has been mentioned for when the child is born, however the girl's mother has stated that she doesn't have a testimony of that being the best thing for the child.

My question is, is it right that a teenager in this position should be subject to a church court?

Does not the stress of having to attend this place the mother to be and her pregnancy in danger..too much stress leading to miscarriage perhaps? (Obviously I'm talking about a severe amount of stress, and know that it isn't 'that' easy to have a miscarriage normally).

I've heard that the reason for the church court is because the sin is sexual by nature, and therefore cannot be dealt with by just direct repentance/prayer to God by the mother to be. Why is this? Surely there is no greater repentance procedure/conversation with God than a person praying for forgiveness rather than having to go via the church Hierarchy?

I feel very sorry for this girl, I know that in the eyes of the church she has sinned, however I see her as being particularly vunerable in her condition, and so cannot see a church court having a beneficial effect on her. Also, the possibility of the girl being co-erced into having her baby adopted, 'for its own good', seems just too much intrusion by the church into this girl's life now and future...

I was a member of the Roman Catholic Church, and recall the special centres that some pregnant RC girls were sent to, and where lots had their children adopted under these circumstances, but this was many years ago..30 or more generally...surely God is merciful and would want us to be so too..if anything, I feel that the church should be offering counselling for the girl at this time, if she requests it, rather than punishing her.

Sorry if this doesn't sound uplifting, but this really 'gets' to me...

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I've heard that the reason for the church court is because the sin is sexual by nature, and therefore cannot be dealt with by just direct repentance/prayer to God by the mother to be. Why is this?

Hopefully this isn't correct since it's probably a safe bet that 99.9% of us are guilty of some sort of sexual sin be it thoughts or action.

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My question is, is it right that a teenager in this position should be subject to a church court?

Probably not, unless she has been having relations with a married man. More likely, nothing would happen to her if she is not active in the church. If she is active, and is repentant, she might possibly be disfellowshipped for a relatively short period of time as part of that process, perhaps 6 months to a year. I believe it is rare for a teen to face a church court, usually it involves people who have been through the temple, have committed serious criminal offenses, or have committed adultery and are unrepentant. In fact, I'm not sure I have ever heard of a teen facing a church court.

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My question is, is it right that a teenager in this position should be subject to a church court?

I feel that the church should be offering counselling for the girl at this time, if she requests it, rather than punishing her.

Sorry if this doesn't sound uplifting, but this really 'gets' to me...

Sadly, it would be more enlightened if they made her wear a Scarlet P rather than invoking a Church court. What is going on in that ward anyway? The girl and family need moral support at times like this, not punishment.

.

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Guest queries

Probably not, unless she has been having relations with a married man. More likely, nothing would happen to her if she is not active in the church. If she is active, and is repentant, she might possibly be disfellowshipped for a relatively short period of time as part of that process, perhaps 6 months to a year. I believe it is rare for a teen to face a church court, usually it involves people who have been through the temple, have committed serious criminal offenses, or have committed adultery and are unrepentant. In fact, I'm not sure I have ever heard of a teen facing a church court.

This was my personal experience when I was an unwed mother-to-be at age 17.

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Guest queries

Also, the possibility of the girl being co-erced into having her baby adopted, 'for its own good', seems just too much intrusion by the church into this girl's life now and future...

I was a member of the Roman Catholic Church, and recall the special centres that some pregnant RC girls were sent to, and where lots had their children adopted under these circumstances, but this was many years ago..30 or more generally...surely God is merciful and would want us to be so too..if anything, I feel that the church should be offering counselling for the girl at this time, if she requests it, rather than punishing her.

I should also mention that I had free counseling from LDS Family Services, and I did place my son for adoption with them. They hooked me up with an LDS family to live with outside of my very small home town during the pregnancy. There was never any coercion or pressure - the decisions were mine all along - although I'm pretty sure the church strongly prefers adoption, seeing how children are entitled to being raised by both a mother and a father and all (from the proclamation on the family).

19 years later, when my son and I met up and I could see what a great job his adopted mom did raising him, I could very easily see that he would have turned out very differently had he been raised by an immature 17 year old. I think I understand the grandmother's perspective, though - knowing what I know, I would have a hard time with my own child making this decision. But ultimately it's the birthmom and birthdad who get to make the choice.

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I have two wonderful nieces who were adopted as infants. The received great care from parents who wanted them and love them. One of them became pregnant at 17 and chose to keep the baby and marry the father. I sometimes wonder if that was the right decision. Only time will tell, I hope it works out for them.

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Sadly, it would be more enlightened if they made her wear a Scarlet P rather than invoking a Church court. What is going on in that ward anyway? The girl and family need moral support at times like this, not punishment.

P?

Wow- did you know that you have to type at least 3 letters before it will let you reply? "P?" is not a complete sentence I guess...

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I'll summarize things real quick rather than providing quotes. I don't recall anything being given in the official policies about the exact age of a person undergoing a disciplinary council. There is a generic statement that the priesthood leaders should take into account the spiritual maturity of the member. It does go on to say that Church discipline may not be necessary in the case of a young person when sexual sins are involved, so long as the person forsakes the sin and strives to repent. However, if a person falls into a pattern of immoral behavior, formal discipline may be required. There is also a policy that states that a disciplinary council should be held for a person whose transgression is widely known.

Ultimately, priesthood leaders get these things right. There may be more to the story than you know. So long as the long term and life-long spiritual development of this young woman is their primary concern, things should turn out fine.

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Moe, for some reason I remember reading something to the effect that discipline at the stake level is only necessary if the member is a Melchizedek Priesthood holder (otherwise, the member supposedly falls under the jurisdiction of the ward bishop).

Do you happen to know whether this is true?

Thanks--

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I've heard that there is a 15 year old girl, in the LDS church, who has fallen pregnant.

Just a quick comment on the "fallen pregnant" terminology. Do people find themselves "fallen married with three kids"? How about "fallen drinking a beer" or "fallen going on a mission" or "fallen getting accepted into college" or "fallen into a dead-end job"?

People don't fall pregnant. It isn't something in the air or water that infects us with a baby. This is the 21st century - we know where babies come from. And there's only two ways a young teen girl gets pregnant:

1- You choose to have sex with a male

2- You're forced to have sex with a male

Now, you can make the case that a 15 yr old girl doesn't have the maturity to make the choice, and can fall prey to pressure/threats, or get suckered into it. That qualifies as #2. The only other option is #1.

One thing a church disciplinary council would seek to do, is figure out which it is. Because if it's force, then the girl is a victim, not a willing participant. That's the difference between sin and innocent. The difference between needing repentance and not.

Surely, this girl will need love and support and help and guidance on the reality of her pregnancy. The council is to determine if she needs help repenting as well.

Moe, for some reason I remember reading something to the effect that discipline at the stake level is only necessary if the member is a Melchizedek Priesthood holder (otherwise, the member supposedly falls under the jurisdiction of the ward bishop).

That is correct. The Bishop has stewardship over the Aaronic priesthood and other members. The Stake President has stewardship over Melchizedek priesthood holders. Although, in certain situations, a MP holder can have things taken care of by the Bishop, who usually consults with the SP but doesn't bring him into meetings with the individual.

LM

Edited by Loudmouth_Mormon
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Guest Alana

Wait, what is church court? Is it different than a disciplinary council? I've been through a disciplinary council and I would never discourage someone from attending one that was scheduled for them by their bishop. The whole purpose of a disciplinary council is to help the individual, not punish them. If a church court is different, does it have the same goal?

There are some sins that can not be resolved alone, they need the help of a bishop to guide the process along. When I went to my disciplinary council, it was after numerous meetings with the bishop, I'd been on my knees a lot. The disciplinary council provided an other step in the repentance process. It helped put things in perspective, it helped outline things (the "punishment"ha, not really) that would help me be more repentant and realize what I was giving up by sinning.

Basically, if a 'church court' is or isn't the same thing as a disciplinary council, I bet you it is done to help the individual. It's done with love. It doesn't have to be a big bad thing that will cause so much stress as to harm the individual. If a 15 year old is pregnant, this is a very big deal. The direction bishops guide individuals in that situation will be to help them to make a decision. There was an excellent article in the Ensign recently that was about adoption and it covers a little bit of the process through the church for deciding if that is even the right step. LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Gift of Adoption

Edited by Alana
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There are several things the bishop will have to consider in a church disciplinary council or hearing (not court). First, did the girl come to the bishop and confess, or did she try to hide the sin? How often did she commit fornication, before this was discovered? Was it with just one person, or several over a period of time? Is she truly seeking to repent and follow the bishop's counsel, or trying to fill a square now that she's been found pregnant?

Chances are, if there is a council, given her age, that she will not be excommunicated, but probably disfellowshipped, or at least placed on probation.

We must remember that, as Alma taught, sexual sin is the third most grievous sin, behind murder and denying the holy ghost.

Hearings are given to help determine the issues of the matter, and to help the bishopric determine the best path towards repentance. It is not to punish the girl, but to help her get her life back in order. They are councils of love, established to help people get their lives back in line with God's will.

The girl needs to go through the hearing with humility, not with an attitude of rebellion. Whatever counsel the bishop gives, she needs to be humble enough to accept it, even if it is difficult. Otherwise, she is continuing to rebel against God, rather than seeking to make true changes in life.

Edited by rameumptom
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I feel very sorry for this girl, I know that in the eyes of the church she has sinned, however I see her as being particularly vunerable in her condition, and so cannot see a church court having a beneficial effect on her. Also, the possibility of the girl being co-erced into having her baby adopted, 'for its own good', seems just too much intrusion by the church into this girl's life now and future...

It may well be the the church court will relieve her of stress rather than add to it. Those who are placed in a position to guide and help her will be acting with the aid of the Holy Ghost to say and do only those things which will benefit both mother and child. They will guide her on the path to repentance and if that is truly what she seeks then knowing that she can be forgiven can be the lifting of a great burden from her shoulders. Satan loves to make people dwell on their guilt and feel unworthy of forgivness.

Adoption is never enforced although the Church's position is that a child is always better off being brought up by two parents. However, each case is individual and will be looked at individually and she will be given advice and guidance. I know of someone who was once in a similar position and she was encouraged to keep the child. Her mother and father helped to look after the baby. Subsequently the girl met a young man whom she married and who is a perfect Daddy to the child and they now have another child themelves. They just look like the perfect family.

In another situation which I know the young mother did not repent and walked away from the church. Her mother ended up bringing up the baby more or less alone and the situation went from bad to worse with the baby's mother subsequently having 2 more children but never marrying and a very unhappy situation between her and her mother. The child and mother are now both inactive. Very sad.

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My question is, is it right that a teenager in this position should be subject to a church court?

Of course it is. This young woman deserves the same opportunity to repent and cleanse herself from her fornications that any other person deserves. God doesn't love her less just because she happened to get pregnant from her fornication. Yes, it is absolutely right that she be allowed a church court.

Does not the stress of having to attend this place the mother to be and her pregnancy in danger..too much stress leading to miscarriage perhaps?

How so? If the girl can withstand the stress of having knowingly violated her covenants, having found out she was pregnant, having admitted it all to her family, and having decided to keep the pregnancy and give the baby up for adoption, then surely going in to talk with the bishop is small potatoes indeed.

I've heard that the reason for the church court is because the sin is sexual by nature, and therefore cannot be dealt with by just direct repentance/prayer to God by the mother to be. Why is this?

All repentance is done to God. All forgiveness is granted by God. Therefore, all sins are indeed dealt with by prayer to God.

Some sins, however, are serious enough that they potentially impact your ability to remain a member of God's kingdom (aka the LDS Church). Obviously, these must be dealt with by representatives of God's kingdom that are empowered to make that judgment. In addition, I believe some sins are so damaging in nature (for example, fornication and adultery) that they cause spiritual damage that literally cannot be corrected by the individual's efforts; they require direct physical intervention by God himself, usually done through his anointed servants, those called to act as judges in Israel.

Surely there is no greater repentance procedure/conversation with God than a person praying for forgiveness rather than having to go via the church Hierarchy?

The "church heirarchy" is the leadership of God's kingdom.

I feel very sorry for this girl, I know that in the eyes of the church she has sinned,

In other words: "I know in the eyes of God she has sinned."

however I see her as being particularly vunerable in her condition, and so cannot see a church court having a beneficial effect on her.

That is because you don't understand what a church court is for.

Also, the possibility of the girl being co-erced into having her baby adopted, 'for its own good', seems just too much intrusion by the church into this girl's life now and future...

"Coerced"? What, did someone tie her up and smack her around until she tearfully agreed? Or do you believe it coercive for a bishop to tell her, "You should carry this child to term and allow him or her to grow up in a loving family that wants him/her and can teach him/her to be a happy, loving person"?

surely God is merciful and would want us to be so too..

Surely. What do you think is "unmerciful" about what you've described?

if anything, I feel that the church should be offering counselling for the girl at this time, if she requests it, rather than punishing her.

In talking with the bishop, this young woman will undoubtedly receive careful and loving counsel.

"Punishing her"? Sounds like a much more Catholic concept of repentance. We Mormons don't really think in terms of "penance" the way many Catholics do. To a Mormon, the point of repenting is to put yourself in a position to approach God. In that sense, there is no "punishment", only steps to help the person regain that position with God. Any divine consequences of sin will be meted out by God, and by God alone; the leadership of God's kingdom will do nothing beyond modifying, or in egregious cases terminating, the person's membership in that kingdom.

This girl needs God in her life as much as she ever has. Certainly you agree with that. What could be more loving, caring, or important than helping her to receive God into her life from this point onward?

Sorry if this doesn't sound uplifting, but this really 'gets' to me...

As long as you think of "church courts" or "church discipline" in terms of stern-faced men glowering down at a helpless girl, I'm not surprised you feel that way. But if this is true, your mental images are incorrect and unhelpful in understanding what's going on.

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Guest missingsomething

Pushka..

What you have to understand is that it is not "church court"... and it is not a place of casting stones. It is a place of love and forgiveness. It is a place where the girl will be able to unload the stress and guilt that she has for having broken the law of chastity. If the girl is repentant, I am sure it is harder for her now, feeling the guilt that she does than it will be for her to go to talk to her bishop.

And to further clarify - you do not have to attend the temple to face disciplinary counsel. If you commit a serious enough sin, and the bishopric prays about it and feels a counsel is needed - it will happen. More often than not, it is my understanding the more knowledge you have (ie going to the temple already) the longer the repentence process is (ie disfellowshipped).

AND - we had a few pregnant teenagers when I was in RS presidency and YW presidency - these girls were still loved and welcomed. We did not alienate them. A mistake is a mistake and we all make them.

Please know, that it is sometimes worse to fear talking to the bishop than it is to actually talk to him.

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Moe, for some reason I remember reading something to the effect that discipline at the stake level is only necessary if the member is a Melchizedek Priesthood holder (otherwise, the member supposedly falls under the jurisdiction of the ward bishop).

Do you happen to know whether this is true?

Thanks--

Church disciplinary councils don't really happen at any level. However, as president of the Melchizedek Priesthood in the stake, the Stake President has to authorize any disciplinary council held for a member holding the Melchizedek Priesthood. Many times, after giving authorization, the bishop of the ward will conduct the council, although this may vary from stake president to stake president. So your memory, in a sense, is correct.

EDIT: I just double checked, and I wasn't exactly right. The bishop normally presides over the council unless there is sufficient cause to believe the the Melchizedek Priesthood holder will be excommunicated. At that point it is transferred to the stake president. For any other disciplinary council, the bishop may preside.

Edited by MarginOfError
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At first thought, I do have a problem with this.

There are several LDS kids in the area I live in who break the law of chastity regularly, and it's common knowledge. The worst discipline i've known them to receive is regular meetings with the bishop and not taking the sacrament for a while. The only difference between this girl and the girls in my stake is that this one happened to get pregnant, which could happen to ANY sexually active teen.

If this girl is going to face a council for breaking the law of chastity, then EVERY teen to break it should be subject to it as well. The only difference between this girl and the other kids your ward who are probably having sexual experiences is that a life was created.

With that in mind however, I am suspicious that there is more to the story than the mother is letting on. Keep that in mind before getting angry with the elders involved, the mother probably feels embarrassed and desperate for support and is trying to rally sympathy for her daughter by making her into a victim of the church. We have no idea what the discussion between this girl and the bishop was like. We can disagree with it all we like, but we have very little detail to base our opinions on.

We don't have to agree with it, but if the lord has different ideas in mind for her repentance process than to be disfellowshipped then it will be manifested.

I hope that things work out for this girl and her child, regardless of what happens afterwards. A lot of really wonderful things can come out of this sad situation so long as she chooses to look for them.

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Thank you everybody, for your thoughtful replies. I'm a new member of the church, so yes, I don't really understand the correct nature/process of church disciplinary councils. From your comments I can see that the procedure would be done in a more loving manner than I perceived.

The term 'church court' was used by the mother, that's why I used it, and I do know that the father isn't a member of the church so his involvement at this time is minimal to non-existant, he advised a termination of the pregnancy.

LM, I'm sorry for using the term 'fallen pregnant', it's just a common phrase used in my part of the world, it wasn't used to attempt to say that the girl was forced into sex, or carried no responsibility for the act..I'm sorry if it appeared that that's what I was trying to suggest.

I do feel relieved after hearing some of the comments about what may occur for this girl, and thank you for that. I may revisit this thread if I feel upset, or concerned in any way again, I know I shouldn't be involving myself too deeply, as it isn't my problem, but obviously I am just concerned about her and her parents/family in general.

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I can understand how you feel. I tend to get very involved in things too. Hoefully all will wrk out best for everyone concerned. I'm so glad to hear that the idea of abortion isn't being taken seriously. Tht could end up haunting the poor girl for the rest of her life.

"falling pregnant" is something I'm used to hearing too, we use it even when a couple have been desperately trying for a baby for years.

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Thank you Willow. I'm pleased too, that the girl is no longer pursuing that route with regard to her pregnancy. I know that her parents are being very supportive, and will not force her into having the child adopted, she knows that she will remain living with them after the birth and that they will share the initial care of the child.

Thanks for concurring with me over the phrase 'fallen pregnant', like you said, we use it over here without a thought for what it might suggest :)

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