Snow has inspired me to ask a question


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The question involves knowledge, perception and belief. My son likes to quote a TV show concerning passing a polygraph test and say, “Something is not a lie if you believe it.”

So here is my question. What is something that a person can know without the possibility of perception error and how can you be sure you are not deceived? Also, how much does our “belief” skew and effect our perceptions and our definition of reality (what we know)?

The Traveler

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IF a tree falls in the forest and nobody is around does it make a sound?

We can't really comprehend anything that is beyond our biological limitations with any real degree of accuracy.

All abstract nouns like truth....we try to identify them in concrete ways and apply such tests and definitions of what they look like, sound like etc....and some things may be agreed upon and on other things we agree to disagree.

With the saying that ' something is not a lie if you believe it'...can you can you change the pronoun and still maintain it as a rational line of thinking e.g....something is not a lie if they believe it....something is not a lie if everyone believes it...obviously not....so who is the 'you'?

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Or you could say the truth is still true even if no-one believes it!

I had a little story years ago to illustrate the point that belief and truth are not the same. It was supposedly told by one of those "wise hermit up a mountain" type characters. Some guy climbed up the mountain to ask him what is truth. His reply was this story:

Two men were walking along a beach. In the dunes on the sand one of them found an egg and close by he saw a dead bird which had been shot by an arrow. He knew the chick in the egg would die if not kept warm by the parent bird so he decided to take the egg home, keep it in a box of straw near the fire and wait for it to hatch. His friend also saw an egg further along the beach and decided to do the same thing.

After a few days the first egg hatched and a little chick was born. The man fed it with worms from his garden until it was strong enough to fly. He called on his friend to see how his chick was doing and the friend replied that his egg had not hatched. The man asked to look at it and when he picked it up he said "You are a fool. This is not an egg. It is a pebble." His friend said, "How can this be? I believed it was an egg." The man eplied. "Just becaue you believed that it does not make it true."

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Guest missingsomething

Most act on faith and faith is a belief in things not yet proven.

You can question yourself right out of believing in anything....

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My son likes to quote a TV show concerning passing a polygraph test and say, “Something is not a lie if you believe it.”

Gotta agree with that. At least my little world, lying is telling something you know to be false. If a Muslim says Mohammad is a prophet I don't personally beleive such is the case (or Mormon and Joseph Smith, except I believe that one), even if such objectivly wasn't the case he wouldn't be living, just telling an unfactual statement.

Or you could say the truth is still true even if no-one believes it!

Yes! If I brainwashed the whole world into believing the world was flat that wouldn't make it so. Of course everyone would believe you are lying. Actually, with my comment above if you did believe it was flat and said it was round you'd be lying.

Hm... oh well, at least we aren't debating time travel, time paradoxes can make your head hurt.

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What is something that a person can know without the possibility of perception error and how can you be sure you are not deceived?

The Traveler

What we are willing to believe works independently of the need for facts. While we may have been deceived, we can still embrace that deception and through our will to believe, make it our truth.

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Truth itelf is never variable but there are varieties and degrees of truth.

In a trial a witness swears to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing bu the truth.

A barrister then tries to ensure that the witness tells the truth, some of the truth and just enough of the truth the ensure that the jury arrives at the conclusion he desires.

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I remember taking History and Historiography 101, of all places, in Hong Kong. The professor pointed out correctly that quite often perception is more important that actuality. For example, we Norwegians are quite proud of the fact that it was Leif Erikson and his band of merry men who discovered North America, not Christopher Columbus, who came centuries later. Never mind that the First Americans or Native Americans were already here, and that nothing came of it--since the journey could not be repeated.

Having said all that, there are some "truths" that cannot be proven, and yet are. If not we sink into a truly dismal worldview--post modernism. I believe that Jesus Christ is Truth, and that the Bible records his teachings. Yes, there's circular reason--the Bible proclaims itself to be true, Jesus is said to have said he was the Truth. I've experienced some circumstances and incidences in my life that point me in the direction of believing those claims. I'm to the point of saying they are true. Is it possible that I'm deceived. Well...not if I'm right!

You're only narrow minded if you're wrong. Otherwise, you are focused and determined.

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I think some are missing the point - I am sorry I did not ask or communicate my question well. So I will try again. Can anyone name something that they know to be true without possibility of perception error and the means that they know that is true?

I am not talking about faith or belief. I am asking about pure knowledge - something you can say - "This I know to be true. I know it to be true because _______ or I did ________. I also know that by _________, whenever it is possible, the truth is absolutely established and that there is no way I can error in my perception.

Now you can fill in the blank with touch, see, feel, taste, or whatever you do to know a thing. There is, of course, one other possibility. That is that you personally really do not know anything for sure and live your entire life basing on faith or what you think and perceive rather than on what you know.

That is fine. What I am interested in is your personal input. What if anything do you “Know” to be true and how did you come to know it?

There is likely to be a follow up question – how do you know that how you came to know it is true and free of perception error?

I do have a method I use – what I am doing is a sanity check. I want to hear what others have done, the success they have, the extent to which they trust and use their method and the results or conclusions they have achieved.

The Traveler

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The question involves knowledge, perception and belief. My son likes to quote a TV show concerning passing a polygraph test and say, “Something is not a lie if you believe it.”

So here is my question. What is something that a person can know without the possibility of perception error and how can you be sure you are not deceived? Also, how much does our “belief” skew and effect our perceptions and our definition of reality (what we know)?

The Traveler

Well, we do know the evil cannot give that 'sure' assurance of true love or a confirmation that is often felt by the Holy Ghost. This is outside of his realm to provide such. You will noticed, when ever there is visitation of the Godhead or by those who are ministers of the Gospel, you will find the presence of the Spirit of GOD and the magnitude of love that cannot be expressed in mortal words. This is a true sign of the divinity of GOD presence. Even hearing the words of the Master, first you will feel the overwhelming evidence of the Spirit and the love before the voice. It has nothing to do with perception but by the faith, works and obedience that we are given further evidence of what is beyond the veil with a confirmation of the Holy Ghost that it did happen.

A lie remains a lie even when we believe so. It is after being further instructed that a lie is finally reveled for what it is and thus changed will come to our lives with correction.

Edited by Hemidakota
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Well, we do know the evil cannot give that 'sure' assurance of true love or a confirmation that is often felt by the Holy Ghost. This is outside of his realm to provide such. You will noticed, when ever there is visitation of the Godhead or by those who are ministers of the Gospel, you will find the presence of the Spirit of GOD and the magnitude of love that cannot be expressed in mortal words. This is a true sign of the divinity of GOD presence. Even hearing the words of the Master, first you will feel the overwhelming evidence of the Spirit and the love before the voice. It has nothing to do with perception but by the faith, works and obedience that we are given further evidence of what is beyond the veil with a confirmation of the Holy Ghost that it did happen.

A lie remains a lie even when we believe so. It is after being further instructed that a lie is finally reveled for what it is and thus changed will come to our lives with correction.

Thank you for your post - but what do you "KNOW" to be true and how did you come to know that it was true? For example - Do you know what belongs to you? How do you know that it is yours and no one elses?

The Traveler

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I think some are missing the point - I am sorry I did not ask or communicate my question well. So I will try again. Can anyone name something that they know to be true without possibility of perception error and the means that they know that is true?

I am not talking about faith or belief. I am asking about pure knowledge - something you can say - "This I know to be true. I know it to be true because _______ or I did ________. I also know that by _________, whenever it is possible, the truth is absolutely established and that there is no way I can error in my perception.

Now you can fill in the blank with touch, see, feel, taste, or whatever you do to know a thing. There is, of course, one other possibility. That is that you personally really do not know anything for sure and live your entire life basing on faith or what you think and perceive rather than on what you know.

That is fine. What I am interested in is your personal input. What if anything do you “Know” to be true and how did you come to know it?

There is likely to be a follow up question – how do you know that how you came to know it is true and free of perception error?

I do have a method I use – what I am doing is a sanity check. I want to hear what others have done, the success they have, the extent to which they trust and use their method and the results or conclusions they have achieved.

The Traveler

Perception always has the possibility of error and distortion. There is nothing anyone can truly know for certain as an absolute truth and considering something absolute truth is a fallacy in my opinion. There are a lot of things that are useful to accept as working truths because you have seen enough evidence for them and the concepts have proved to work for you, but there is no way to personally determine truth beyond error because of the nature of perception.

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Perception always has the possibility of error and distortion. There is nothing anyone can truly know for certain as an absolute truth and considering something absolute truth is a fallacy in my opinion. There are a lot of things that are useful to accept as working truths because you have seen enough evidence for them and the concepts have proved to work for you, but there is no way to personally determine truth beyond error because of the nature of perception.

I highlighted some statements in green because you say them as though you know them to be true. You did not give any indication of how you came to “know” such things so I am not sure if you really know it or if you are even being honest with yourself.

Are you saying these things because you know them to be true? If so – how do you know them?

BTW: Thanks for your input.

The Traveler

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OK...I'll bite...literally. I know that I don't like sour milk. I've tasted it and gagged. My nose ran. I nearly vomitted. This has happened on at least three occasions. Once I remember just catching a brief whiff of sour milk, and gagging. So, I know that I don't like it.

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The question involves knowledge, perception and belief. My son likes to quote a TV show concerning passing a polygraph test and say, “Something is not a lie if you believe it.”

So here is my question. What is something that a person can know without the possibility of perception error and how can you be sure you are not deceived? Also, how much does our “belief” skew and effect our perceptions and our definition of reality (what we know)?

The Traveler

As always, you ask excellent questions Traveler.

I don't know the answer to your question but as I pointed out elsewhere, people are often products of their up bringing. If we, some of us, had been born into different circumstances, some of us would belong to other churches/faiths and be just as convinced of different truths.

There are those inside the LDS Church that are not ill-intentioned that leave and find their truth elsewhere. Is their truth less valid than ours? I'd say yes but they would say the opposite.

My general POV is that I believe that the Church and Gospel are true, that I have faith in it and am very solidly convinced of it, but I don't pretend that I am above-human and incapable of being in error. The lens through which I view things is pretty clear but it ain't perfect.

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OK...I'll bite...literally. I know that I don't like sour milk. I've tasted it and gagged. My nose ran. I nearly vomitted. This has happened on at least three occasions. Once I remember just catching a brief whiff of sour milk, and gagging. So, I know that I don't like it.

As usual, you and I are on the same track. However PC, if you consider Snow's post that follows yours he brings up a rather interesting principle. Perhaps it is not that you do not like sour milk as much as the methods that sour milk have been presented to you. For example I have developed a great killer recipe for fresh ground whole wheat waffles. One of my secret ingredients is sour milk.

What I am suggesting in this particular case is that you may have some knowledge but that your knowledge is limited and incomplete. But for the most part I agree with your assessment about knowledge. That is you have a method that if applied produces actual qualified results. The other interesting thing is that you can study in detail what is happening to you when you drink sour milk in order to obtain a lot more information that will not change your knowledge or the quality of your basic knowledge.

So – can you take this one more step and surmise the source of truth and how someone obtains the knowledge of it?

The Traveler

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I'm stuck on the notion that Travelers waffles mask the true nature of sour milk, and manage to accent some speck of goodness that remains in it, to create his culinary wonder. In other words, at its core, sour milk is unliked by prisonchaplain. The fact that this unliked substance can be combined with other substances to make something wonderful, does not discount my dislike of sour milk itself.

To answer your followup, God gave me my senses, so he is the ultimate source of the means by which I discovered my truth. However, I can't prove that.

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Thank you for your post - but what do you "KNOW" to be true and how did you come to know that it was true? For example - Do you know what belongs to you? How do you know that it is yours and no one elses?

The Traveler

It is when one of Them calls you by name and instructs you on specific issues - annually. :D

Edited by Hemidakota
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I highlighted some statements in green because you say them as though you know them to be true. You did not give any indication of how you came to “know” such things so I am not sure if you really know it or if you are even being honest with yourself.

Are you saying these things because you know them to be true? If so – how do you know them?

BTW: Thanks for your input.

The Traveler

I am saying these things because I have found them to be accurate in my personal experience and for me it is the best explanation of the world around me. I don't know of any other way to explain seeing so many people who are absolutely sure that they are right, yet have conflicting mutually exclusive views. Obviously all of them can not be right, but all seem equally sure of themselves. My personal conclusion is that absolute truth is unknowable. Even my statements on uncertainty are subject to this same uncertainty and I don't claim to "know" them for certain.

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I am saying these things because I have found them to be accurate in my personal experience and for me it is the best explanation of the world around me. I don't know of any other way to explain seeing so many people who are absolutely sure that they are right, yet have conflicting mutually exclusive views. Obviously all of them can not be right, but all seem equally sure of themselves. My personal conclusion is that absolute truth is unknowable. Even my statements on uncertainty are subject to this same uncertainty and I don't claim to "know" them for certain.

More green highlight:

Two things I find interesting"

1. That you recognize your personal conclusions.

2. That you recognize that even when you speak with certainty (about most things) there is a possible flaw.

The question I am trying to get to - is there anything that you do "Know" for sure and how do you know it?

I believe if you are careful and consider this thought that there are things you do "Know" but how you know them may go against your paradigm of Knowing - you may be involved in a most interesting paradox. Most scientists I have encountered suffer this problem but never deal with it.

The Traveler

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I'm stuck on the notion that Travelers waffles mask the true nature of sour milk, and manage to accent some speck of goodness that remains in it, to create his culinary wonder. In other words, at its core, sour milk is unliked by prisonchaplain. The fact that this unliked substance can be combined with other substances to make something wonderful, does not discount my dislike of sour milk itself.

To answer your followup, God gave me my senses, so he is the ultimate source of the means by which I discovered my truth. However, I can't prove that.

Most people that think they love chocolate as one of their most favorite things to eat do not really know what chocolate is like all by its self.

In scientific terms we talk of learning at the lowest cognitive level of learning – by association as in Pavlov’s dog. Shakespeare once said: “Nothing is as good or as bad as it seems only that thinking makes it so.”

So I wonder PC. What is more important in finding truth? That you have ability to “sense” truth or to “believe” to know the source of truth? I say believe because you admit you cannot prove to yourself how you know G-d is the source of truth.

The Traveler

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