Is America Becoming Socialist? I Think Not.

[bytebear]

Excellent article. I really think the 20 something generation has had the Reagan years censored because they are sorely underappreciated.

[Islander]

The article is solid on facts. Media and academia long ago stopped reporting and researching. They moved on to opinion shaping and ideologically driven event showcasing. It is a sad tale when the public no longer takes the time to research and inquire. Most seem content to hope for a handout.

[trulykiwi]

What does this even mean?

The Democratic party wish list? What is that?

How does the "Democratic Party" benefit from capitalizing on the fears of ignorant Americans? What do they gain by ruining the country?

I loathe the far right-wing, but I don't believe they're purposely out to devastate the country, or ruin people's lives. I think the Bush administration was reckless, ignorant and ruthless. But I don't think he purposely did the things he did to cause us harm; rather, I think he believed his actions were best for the country.

Both parties think they have the best answers on how to govern the country. They're not all heartless, cold-blooded human beings who care nothing about us, and only about themselves.

Corrupt legislators? Yes, they are despicable. Thankfully many of those we know about are gone now. I assume there are still some in office, or some new ones.

But your average legislator is sincerely devoted to his/her constituency, regardless of how whacked they are.

I've worked on a number of campaigns, and all of them have been the most honest and ethical people their constituents could have wanted. One probably lost her campaign because she would not focus on her opponent's dishonesty as she was committed to no negative campaigning.

Obama is not out to ruin you. He has not taken advantage of us to wring us dry. He is not appealing to our fears for personal gain. He honestly believes his policies will help the country recover. Whether he is right or wrong remains to be seen.

Tell me how he benefits from dragging the country into ruin?

Elphaba

t

They have much to gain by ruining the country. It is called POWER. These people have all the money they need and more, but they want power and that is what it is about. Obama is not the one you should be looking at as the buck does not stop with him and thats where everyone is going wrong. How do you think Lucifer will arise the Beast, not Obama, it is through the most powerful men and women in POWER.

[bytor2112]

The Democratic party wish list? What is that?

Did you read the stimulus bill....you know what I mean.

How does the "Democratic Party" benefit from capitalizing on the fears of ignorant Americans? What do they gain by ruining the country?

How? The ridiculous "emergency" spending bill ring any bells? You know the one that just had to be passed or else we would never recover from the recession? Every speech filled with negativity....crisis, crisis, crisis. I don't think they are trying to ruin the country Elphaba, like you I believe that both party's have the best interest of the country at heart....at least many do. But, honestly, the spending will eventually be our downfall, I was adamantly opposed to Bush's excessive spending as well.

I loathe the far right-wing, but I don't believe they're purposely out to devastate the country, or ruin people's lives. I think the Bush administration was reckless, ignorant and ruthless. But I don't think he purposely did the things he did to cause us harm; rather, I think he believed his actions were best for the country.

I don't disagree with you, but Obama's administration thus far has been even more reckless and ignorant and I am not sure Obama really believes that this spending is best for the country, I think he just sees opportunity because of the current financial state of the country.....need I quote Rham Emanuel?

Both parties think they have the best answers on how to govern the country. They're not all heartless, cold-blooded human beings who care nothing about us, and only about themselves.

Agreed. But a bunch of lawyers pretending to be economic experts is frightening.

.

Obama is not out to ruin you. He has not taken advantage of us to wring us dry. He is not appealing to our fears for personal gain. He honestly believes his policies will help the country recover. Whether he is right or wrong remains to be seen.

At least you admit that he is "appealing to our fears"..... I can't imagine that he honestly believes that the stimulus bill and omnibus bill is good fiscal policy, if he does we are worse off that I thought. The economy will recover despite the spending, I think that we will see positive growth numbers in the 3rd quarter. We would have recovered as a much financially healthier country without the outrageous government spending bills. Ever wonder how it gets paid back and by whom? Does it concern you at all? Or are you so blinded by your ideology and admiration for Obama to intellectually scrutinize what he has thus far done? It is so easy to get sucked in to party politics. I have admitted that I am a registered Republican.......but only because I don't believe that a third party candidate can be elected. I sooo do not like the Republican party, but I believe they at least claim to represent many of my beliefs and values. But they were out of control spenders too and Bush was right there leading the way. Bush was a fiscal liberal......really a Democrat in my estimation. The Democrats have it all now and as sheep like as the American public often behaves , they will oust the Dems as well because of broken promises and ridiculous spending.

Pay as you go......some Democrat said that.....sounded good anyway. Dump the kool-aid....it's poisonous !!

Edited April 11, 2009 by bytor2112

[bytebear]

The article is solid on facts. Media and academia long ago stopped reporting and researching. They moved on to opinion shaping and ideologically driven event showcasing. It is a sad tale when the public no longer takes the time to research and inquire. Most seem content to hope for a handout.

If you want a couple excellent books on media bias I woud reccomend:

• Bias: A CBS Insider Exposes How the Media Distort the News
• A Slobbering Love Affair: The True (And Pathetic) Story of the Torrid Romance Between Barack Obama and the Mainstream Media

Both are by Bernard Goldburg. They give detailed accounts of media bias. For Obama fans, know that the second book is not an attack on Obama, but more an observation of how the media is destroying its own credibility by being so non-objective in their reporting.

[LittleWyvern]

It's that by paying off the stupid and careless, we aren't making them any smarter or more careful. We're just throwing money at people (of all social classes) who will make the same mistakes all over again as soon as they get a chance to do so--because they're still having the administration and people of all political persuasions telling most of them that they've done nothing wrong.

You're still assuming that everybody that is in financial trouble right now is in financial trouble because they're stupid and careless, and that nobody has learned anything. I have rebuttals (mostly appeals to history and personal experiences), but there's no way I can debate against a stubbornly held prejudice. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. :)

Edited April 11, 2009 by LittleWyvern

[Islander]

You're still assuming that everybody that is in financial trouble right now is in financial trouble because they're stupid and careless, and that nobody has learned anything. I have rebuttals (mostly appeals to history and personal experiences), but there's no way I can debate against a stubbornly held prejudice. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. :)

I think the statement from Guy is too bold to be polite. But, harsh as it may seem there is significant truth in it.

I have a dozen friends that got in trouble and lost their homes. Now, with cool heads and in the midst of a humbling experience, they all recognized they got well over their heads. They bought into the exuberance and the scheme that you could buy a million dollar home, make minuscule payments on an exotic loan for 3-4 years, gain 20% appreciation value, sell and cash out into another home. Yeah, they see it now. Be it greed, foolish hope or sheer ignorance but they fell for it. I am having trouble being sympathetic with the investors that funded those loans. It is called risk capital.

So, yeah, stupid may be a strong word and perhaps not PC but we can play semantics till the devil's penthouse freezes over.

PS: By the way, where is our friend PC the Mod these days?

[Palerider]

I think the statement from Guy is too bold to be polite. But, harsh as it may seem there is significant truth in it.

I have a dozen friends that got in trouble and lost their homes. Now, with cool heads and in the midst of a humbling experience, they all recognized they got well over their heads. They bought into the exuberance and the scheme that you could buy a million dollar home, make minuscule payments on an exotic loan for 3-4 years, gain 20% appreciation value, sell and cash out into another home. Yeah, they see it now. Be it greed, foolish hope or sheer ignorance but they fell for it. I am having trouble being sympathetic with the investors that funded those loans. It is called risk capital.

So, yeah, stupid may be a strong word and perhaps not PC but we can play semantics till the devil's penthouse freezes over.

PS: By the way, where is our friend PC the Mod these days?

I think he is in Spirit Prison.....:lol:

[Islander]

Right....he occupies the top floor in hell....you know he's got to keep up with appearances....and impress his guests....hehehehe that's what grandma just to say.

[Elphaba]

How do you think Lucifer will arise the Beast, not Obama, it is through the most powerful men and women in POWER.

So all of this has to do with Satan? Obama is e a minion of Satan seeking power to destroy the country and everyone in it?

Is that what all of you who are vehemently opposed to Obama think, that this is about Satan?

Is this how you ultimately justify your serious disagreements to your outright hatred?

Because of Satan?

Wow. That is just too freaking bizarre, and stupid.

Elphaba

[Moksha]

I loathe the far right-wing, but I don't believe they're purposely out to devastate the country, or ruin people's lives.

Elphaba

In all fairness to Limbaugh, many people say nasty things when they are wacked out on Oxycontin. They just get over emphasized when you are the defacto head of the Republcan party, otherwise the press would just let one sleep it off.

[Moksha]

How do you think Lucifer will arise the Beast, not Obama, it is through the most powerful men and women in POWER.

But Cheney was kept in check by Secret Service agents, wearing silver crosses, when they escorted him or stood guard outside his crypt.

[bytor2112]

So all of this has to do with Satan? Obama is e a minion of Satan seeking power to destroy the country and everyone in it?

Is that what all of you who are vehemently opposed to Obama think, that this is about Satan?

Is this how you ultimately justify your serious disagreements to your outright hatred?

Because of Satan?

Wow. That is just too freaking bizarre, and stupid.

Elphaba

yes....he is in league with the devil.....

[Just_A_Guy]

You're still assuming that everybody that is in financial trouble right now is in financial trouble because they're stupid and careless, and that nobody has learned anything. I have rebuttals (mostly appeals to history and personal experiences), but there's no way I can debate against a stubbornly held prejudice. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. :)

You disagree with something I never said. I did not speak in absolutes; what I said was that "by paying off the stupid and careless, we aren't making them any smarter or more careful". As long as at least some of those individuals receiving payoffs acted foolishly and carelessly, my statement is correct.

In hindsight, yes; I should have been more tactful (frankly, I don't consider "stupid" much of an insult--I frequently frankly admit that I am stupid. I subscribe to Scott Adams's (creator of Dilbert) philosophy that we're pretty much all idiots at one time or another throughout each and every day. But my apologies if I've offended the sensibilities of others).

Nevertheless, in our economic system there is--generally speaking--a correlation between wise decisions/hard work and financial success. (If you have statistical evidence otherwise, I'd really love to see it). In an enormous amount of these foreclosure cases you could trace the borrower's financial woes back to borrowing too much, foregoing opportunities for education, starting a family too early, making inappropriate purchases . . . ad nauseum.

This wouldn't be any of my business--people are free to make poor decisions whenever and about whatever they please. But, as our big corporations are learning, when you start accepting (or even demanding) public money you also expose yourself to public scrutiny of your past deeds and future intentions. And if you aren't willing to, as the AA says, "take an honest inventory"--you're going to get yourself on the public's shiz-list pretty darned quick.

[Palerider]

Elphaba,

The Devil made me do it.....:lol::lol:

[Elphaba]

Elphaba,

The Devil made me do it.....:lol::lol:

That would be me!

Elph

[Elphaba]

Did you read the stimulus bill....you know what I mean.

Hey Bytor,

I don't think I'm wording my question clearly. It's the way you attribute nefarious motives to Obama that I don't understand.

Why would Obama capitalize on our fears if he didn’t believe his economic policies would work? What possible benefit would he get from doing so?

I’ve posted a few of your comments from two of your posts:

. . . but Obama's administration thus far has been even more reckless and ignorant and I am not sure Obama really believes that this spending is best for the country, I think he just sees opportunity because of the current financial state of the country…

I can't imagine that he honestly believes that the stimulus bill and omnibus bill is good fiscal policy, if he does we are worse off that I thought. The economy will recover despite the spending,

Obama saw opportunity to capitalize on the fears of ignorant Americans and funded the Democratic party wish list of the last 25 years.

Your combined comments say Obama took advantage of our fears when he knew his economic policies would not work.

Why would he do that? What does Obama possibly have to gain by taking advantage of our fears to implement his economic policies he knows won’t work, which would seriously damage our country?

Here's the thing: Either Obama took advantage of our fears, as you said, to implement economic policies that he believes won’t work,

or,

Obama addressed the fears of the American people by implementing policies he believes, or hopes, will work.

There is a huge difference between the two, and it can’t be both.

Elphaba, like you I believe that both party's have the best interest of the country at heart....at least many do. But, honestly, the spending will eventually be our downfall,

Now this makes sense to me.

None of this intimates nefarious motives to exploit Americans’ fears. Rather, you’re giving your opinion about your vehement opposition to Obama’s policies, and that's it.

It just makes no sense to attribute motives to Obama that will bring about his, and the country's, failure. He benefits nothing from doing so.

Elphaba

[trulykiwi]

Hey Bytor,

Why would Obama capitalize on our fears if he didn’t believe his economic policies would work? What possible benefit would he get from doing so?

Why would he do that? What does Obama possibly have to gain by taking advantage of our fears to implement his economic policies he knows won’t work, which would seriously damage our country?

It just makes no sense to attribute motives to Obama that will bring about his, and the country's, failure. He benefits nothing from doing so.

Elphaba

You just have to look at history to see the reason why. Abraham Lincoln or John F Kennedy. They were both about to blow the banking elite out of the water, yet Obama is paying these people off, maybe he is promised greater power if he ruins the country. Or on the other end of the spectrum you have Stalin, Hitler or Mussolini. Makes sense to me. You think in this day and age nice people like Obama Hussein care about you. I beg to differ and he has proved that more than once. Power is the operative word. It is always what Lucifer promises to those who want control of the world.

[a-train]

Call it what you want, when government injures the rights of an individual to benefit the politically favored, its bad no matter the circumstances of the individuals being injured or benefitted. Whether it takes the form of a privileged monopoly status for a fat cat, a subsidy for a favored industry, or an outright transfer payment, it matters not if you must appropriate the funds by force.

The technical definition of socialism includes government ownership and control of the means of production. Does the U.S. have such a system? Not exactly.

What we are actually moving into is fascism. Fascist economic systems allow private ownership of the means of production, but economic decisions of the owning private entities are dictated by the state. The state dictates what is produced, how much is produced, how it is produced, where it is produced, how product is distributed, at what prices products can be exchanged, and so forth. The main commodity under strict control, is the one that is involved in all transactions in all industries: money.

Beyond that, the means of production are regulated almost arbitrarily. The reason for creeping regulation is the constant appeal to government by various groups for regulation they see as beneficial to their own or to all. Legislators mainly look to improve the lives of the people, but often overlook government encroachment into private affairs and contempt for individual rights in these endeavors.

"If everyone would just give $1 to the cause, we could......." "If everyone would just make this one social change we could....." What these endeavors forget is individual freedom.

-a-train

[trulykiwi]

The technical definition of socialism includes government ownership and control of the means of production. Does the U.S. have such a system? Not exactly.

-a-train

OK if you are asking if USA is socialist, the answer is NO, not yet!

[Moksha]

Obama is:

Socialist

Communist

Fascist

Marxist

Nazi

Christian

Muslim Terroist

Anti-semitic

Stupid

Born in Hawaii, Kenya and Canada

Elphaba

Elphaba, are you on the ward email list too?

[Hemidakota]

I do believe we are entering a state of apathy.

[Aesa]

"The ultimate irony will be if today's Socialist stimulus proves tomorrow's Capitalist salvation."

It certainly would be because creating surges in debt goes completely against the possibility of "saving" the system.

[a-train]

"The ultimate irony will be if today's Socialist stimulus proves tomorrow's Capitalist salvation."

It certainly would be because creating surges in debt goes completely against the possibility of "saving" the system.

I think it could very possibly save capitalism in America. Not because it will bring prosperity, but because it will create such a public distaste for expansionary fiscal and monetary policy that a new rush back toward laissez-faire capitalism will be brought about and prosperity restored.

-a-train

[trulykiwi]

I think it could very possibly save capitalism in America. Not because it will bring prosperity, but because it will create such a public distaste for expansionary fiscal and monetary policy that a new rush back toward laissez-faire capitalism will be brought about and prosperity restored.

-a-train

In a perfect world, but no, can't see that happening sorry!