Ancient Greece?

[Aesa]

Many of you seem to espouse the notion that Marriage keeps society together. Do you think this explains the collapse of Ancient Greece (the fact that most of the elite had a wife and a homosexual relationship - and the rest of the population was largely bisexual)?

This will be a discussion of personal opinions, I'm not interested in debating or going on with points here.

[Soul_Searcher]

Have you got evidence to support most people were in a homosexual relationship and that the rest of the population were bisexual? I studied classical civilisation for A-level and ancient greek and have visited Greece. I think that the Greeks were in awe of the male form, they thought it was superior and almost worshipping it was a form of worshipping the Gods, who all had perfect physiques. I hardly think this can be attributed to the breakdown of marriage though. There was undoubtedly homosexual activity, but I think your assumptions are a bit off :)

[Aesa]

Most definitely all of the elites were. It was a different form of homosexuality, in other words, not the 'imagery of a heterosexual relationship' we have today.

I brought this topic up because I've been re-studying my philosophy notes in time for re-emerging of classes next week.

"Homosexual relationships seem to have been prevalent in ancient Greece. It is possible Achilles and Patroclus of Homer's Iliad were icons of male homosexuality. Aristotle stated that the Cretans encouraged homosexuality as a population controller on the island community in his Politics." Homosexuality in Ancient Greece - ReligionFacts

[Maxel]

Marriage keeps a society together and forms the foundation for the basic building block of society: the family. As long as the institution of marriage is kept intact, other societal problems can be extant and the country can still survive healthily.

As for ancient Greece- I highly doubt homosexuality was the 'cause' of the fall of the Greek empire. I do believe it was a contributing factor though. The ultimate cause of the fall of the Greek empire- of any empire- is moral degradation and a lackadaisical lifestyle among the bulk of the people. Homosexuality would be a symptom of said moral degradation, and not the cause of the downfall.

[FunkyTown]

Many of you seem to espouse the notion that Marriage keeps society together. Do you think this explains the collapse of Ancient Greece (the fact that most of the elite had a wife and a homosexual relationship - and the rest of the population was largely bisexual)?

This will be a discussion of personal opinions, I'm not interested in debating or going on with points here.

So what you're saying, then, is that orientation is a choice since the society encouraged it and that resulted in the majority experimenting. Intriguing. Please go on with this discussion of orientation as a choice rather than a predisposition.

[Aesa]

No, that's not what I'm saying.

It's just that some members on here seem to espouse that a move away from 'traditional marriage'/nuclear family being one man one woman with kids - is damaging to the fabric of society. I wanted to hear what others have to say on it.

Essentially I am not giving any opinion on this at all - I just want to see what others have to say.

[FunkyTown]

No, that's not what I'm saying.

Well, which is it, Aesa? Is orientation a choice influenced by environmental factors or did ancient Greece simply not experience a same-sex renaissance like what you're suggesting?

Actually, there are three options. Feel free to pick them or tell me where I'm wrong:

1) Orientation is a choice influenced by environment such as permissiveness. In this case, what you're discussing could have happened.

2) It is a genetic predisposition, in which case all the descendents of ancient Greece share this predisposition(Which I'd be happy to have you espouse on a street in Greece).

3) It didn't happen as you're saying.

I could have missed something. Feel free to point out where my logic is wrong: Either it's a choice or it's not. If it's a choice, it makes perfect sense that a society would evolve such as you're discussing. If it's not, then the descendents should share that trait.

[Aesa]

Is orientation a choice influenced by environmental factors or did ancient Greece simply not experience a same-sex renaissance like what you're suggesting?

I would say that they're one and the same, really.

Orientation is a choice based upon what you are exposed to by your culture. You can only make choices based on what you 'know', or come to know.

[FunkyTown]

I would say that they're one and the same, really.

Orientation is a choice based upon what you are exposed to by your culture. You can only make choices based on what you 'know', or come to know.

If that's the case, what you're saying is that changing society would eliminate orientation. I can point to several cases where repressive regimes still have people of differing orientation. Ultimately, bringing up what you have requires a radically new way of thinking about orientation, which invalidates most arguments made in its favor.

[Aesa]

No that's not what I'm saying at all.

I can't imagine how you can come to that conclusion, so unless you want to elaborate I don't even know where to begin with regards as to what's wrong with that.

[FunkyTown]

No that's not what I'm saying at all.

I can't imagine how you can come to that conclusion, so unless you want to elaborate I don't even know where to begin with regards as to what's wrong with that.

I believe I have. You stated that Ancient Greece had much greater instances of same-sex romantic activities. If that were the case, it would suggest one of three reasons. I simply drew them to the logical conclusion from what you'd said.

[Aesa]

You stated that Ancient Greece had much greater instances of same-sex romantic activities. If that were the case, it would suggest one of three reasons.

Okay, I understand - but I disagree strongly.

Merely it has to do with the environmental conditions being sufficient. Gay people are more commonly found and exist in larger numbers in cities and metropolitan areas, this would make sense when we take into account that Greece was based on city-states.

[FunkyTown]

Okay, I understand - but I disagree strongly.

Merely it has to do with the environmental conditions being sufficient. Gay people are more commonly found and exist in larger numbers in cities and metropolitan areas, this would make sense when we take into account that Greece was based on city-states.

I should point out that correlation is not causation. There are more people in cities. Ergo, a greater number will naturally be there and will increase the odds of finding another partner. The caveat is that it doesn't mean there are fewer (Insert any group here) in smaller towns, but merely that the same percentage can't manifest due to lack of opportunities. But that's not what you had suggested. You suggested that the partnerships were pervasive in the culture.

[Aesa]

Yes, but if a group has more percentage in an area they will have an influence rather than just being a fringe.

[Moksha]

There was undoubtedly homosexual activity, but I think your assumptions are a bit off :)

How does that expression go, "Remember the Spartans". Their system of each soldier with their own young boy, seemed a bit gay - did it not?

[NeuroTypical]

"Homosexual relationships seem to have been prevalent in ancient Greece. It is possible Achilles and Patroclus of Homer's Iliad were icons of male homosexuality. Aristotle stated that the Cretans encouraged homosexuality as a population controller on the island community in his Politics." Homosexuality in Ancient Greece - ReligionFacts

So, I'm reading this link, and I see it asserts what you say it does. But as I read the examples it gives supporting it's claim, I don't see the examples proving what you (and the website) seem to say they prove.

Yeah, there was an element of acceptable homosexuality in ancient Greece. People talked about it, wrote about it, sang about it. We have records talking about attitudes towards it. That doesn't support your statement "most of the elite had a wife and a homosexual relationship" You state it as a fact - I'm thinking it's more of an opinion. The website says stuff like "attraction to males and homosexual relationships in the active role with one's social inferiors was common", but then it fails to support the statement, instead making passing mention in passive voice "There were stories of same-sex exploits" of greek Gods.

I notice the webpage cites Plato's "The Symposium" as a source for further reading. I remember reading this back in College. If I remember correctly, someone ends up all ticked off because in all that talk of love, he tries to spend the night with Socrates and nothing happened.

Anyway, to answer your question, I believe their homosexuality might have been a symptom, but not a prime cause. I'm thinking it was something between the lead leaching out of their cookware, to their overexpanded comfortable laziness.

LM

[Aesa]

That doesn't support your statement "most of the elite had a wife and a homosexual relationship"

Well, it is taught in philosophy courses, and Socrates references it in Gorgias.

[Snow]

Many of you seem to espouse the notion that Marriage keeps society together. Do you think this explains the collapse of Ancient Greece (the fact that most of the elite had a wife and a homosexual relationship - and the rest of the population was largely bisexual)?

This will be a discussion of personal opinions, I'm not interested in debating or going on with points here.

Is the reason that you are "not interested in debating or going on with points here," because your points are made up and you can't defend them?

I charge that you may have just made made up "the fact that most of the elite had a wife and a homosexual relationship - and the rest of the population was largely bisexual."

Further, you fail to specify what you mean by ancient Greece.

Do you mean the Bronze Period? Greek Dark Ages? The Archaic era? Classical Greece?

Let's assume that you mean Hellenistic Greece. The answer is simple - it waddn't homosexuality - they were conquered by the Romans... who conquered everybody else and their dog; gay or not.

Edited April 16, 2009 by Snow

[Wingnut]

Let's assume that you mean Hellenistic Greece. The answer is simple - it waddn't homosexuality - they were conquered by the Romans... who conquered everybody else and their dog; gay or not.

Well, the Romans must have been gay then, because their empire later fell too.

[Aesa]

Is the reason that you are "not interested in debating or going on with points here," because your points are made up and you can't defend them?

I charge that you just made made up "the fact that most of the elite had a wife and a homosexual relationship - and the rest of the population was largely bisexual."

Further, you fail to specify what you mean by ancient Greece.

Do you mean the Bronze Period? Greek Dark Ages? The Archaic era? Classical Greece?

Let's assume that you mean Hellenistic Greece. The answer is simple - it waddn't homosexuality - they were conquered by the Romans... who conquered everybody else and their dog; gay or not.

I haven't made this stuff up. Have you read any of the works of Plato/Socrates and Aristotle?

If you haven't, then I'll be happy to provide some quotations from some of the texts.

I'm not interested in debating because everyone here appears to very dogmatic, which is highly dangerous, and only leads to endless circular arguing.

Well, the Romans must have been gay then, because their empire later fell too.

That's not the direction I was hoping to approach this discussion from. Rather, just that from a Mormon view it would be a move away from the nuclear family which you view as the bedrock of society do you not?

[Just_A_Guy]

Well, if Aristophanes based his Lysistrata off a real-life woman or group of women, the prevalence of homosexuality in ancient Greece could explain Athens' loss to Sparta in the Peloponnesian War.

[Snow]

I haven't made this stuff up. Have you read any of the works of Plato/Socrates and Aristotle?

If you haven't, then I'll be happy to provide some quotations from some of the texts.

I'm not interested in debating because everyone here appears to very dogmatic, which is highly dangerous, and only leads to endless circular arguing.

1. So far it might appear that you are merely making it up to conveniently make a point - you claimed that he fact that most of the elite had a wife and a homosexual relationship - and the rest of the population was largely bisexual. You're only proof so far is that you allege to have read some fictional plays from the Classical period. Let's have the real proof - it's not that hard to come by.

2. You claim that you don't want to debate "because everyone here appears to very dogmatic, which is highly dangerous, and only leads to endless circular arguing," yet YOU are possibly guilty of the same "sins" you claim that others are guilty of, namely depending on dogma and circular reasoning.

--- your proposition is dogmatically asserted with no evidence other than you say so - circular reasoning.

3. Do you really think that you will be able to educate me on ancient Greece?

Think about it - I think you'll find that some of us are not dogmatically oriented as you think and as you apparently are yourself. We are much more interested in facts and demonstrable truth.

Edited April 16, 2009 by Snow

[Traveler]

1. So far, it appears, you are merely making it up to conveniently make a point - you claimed that he fact that most of the elite had a wife and a homosexual relationship - and the rest of the population was largely bisexual. You're only proof so far is that you allege to have read some fictional plays from the Classical period. Let's have the real proof - it's not that hard to come by.

2. You claim that you don't want to debate "because everyone here appears to very dogmatic, which is highly dangerous, and only leads to endless circular arguing," yet YOU are possibly guilty of the same "sins" you claim that others are guilty of, namely depending on dogma and circular reasoning.

--- your proposition is dogmatically asserted with no evidence other than you say so - circular reasoning.

3. Do you really think that you will be able to educate me on ancient Greece?

Think about it - I think you'll find that some of us are not dogmatically oriented as you think and as you apparently are yourself. We are much more interested in facts and demonstrable truth.

Be careful my friend Snow - our friend might have just passed a college class on ancient Greece taught in an unbiased California institution of higher learning.

The Traveler

[Snow]

Well, the Romans must have been gay then, because their empire later fell too.

Well there was in fact significant homosexuality in ancient Rome - which kinda defeats the OPs original premise that homosexuality led to Greece downfall - which fell to who were also homosexuals or bi-sexuals.

Edited April 16, 2009 by Snow

[Aesa]

That's not my premise. I believe that a society flourishes when the family is allowed to be whatever it wants to be (but, that doesn't work in our system because it's high stress and the parents are too busy at their monotonous job to be much of a parent most of the time).

I'm asking YOU and everyone else what you think of it.

*sigh*