Ancient Greece?


Aesa
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Be careful my friend Snow - our friend might have just passed a college class on ancient Greece taught in an unbiased California institution of higher learning.

The Traveler

I can assure you that posters knowledge on "ancient Greece" which he fails to even correctly identify is rudimentary at best. It's not so much his assertion that is the problem - that's easily enough demonstrated, rather it's his dogmatic and circular reasoning.

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That's not my premise. I believe that a society flourishes when the family is allowed to be whatever it wants to be (but, that doesn't work in our system because it's high stress and the parents are too busy at their monotonous job to be much of a parent most of the time).

I'm asking YOU and everyone else what you think of it.

*sigh*

So you have zero opinion about the role of Hellenic Greece homosexuality in it's defeat to the Romans - it was just a random curiosity about other people's thoughts?

If you have going to come in here and assert that others lack critical thinking skills, you'd better bring a little bit more to the table.

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That's not my premise. I believe that a society flourishes when the family is allowed to be whatever it wants to be (but, that doesn't work in our system because it's high stress and the parents are too busy at their monotonous job to be much of a parent most of the time).

I'm asking YOU and everyone else what you think of it.

*sigh*

I think the stress thing is over-rated. The birthrates of Germany and Russia were higher during WW2 than they are today -- and what could be more stressful than having your country invaded?

I believe that we could look to Romans chapter 1 to get an idea of what comes first...decadence or the family falling. In this part of the Bible it seems that first you have pride, then people choose to make God into whatever image justifies that pride, then comes not wanting to settle down and raise families then comes the whole perversion thing and then the people die. Both in ancient Rome and Greece one finds that the ruling class did indeed follow this path and eventually were replaced (genetically and culturally) by peoples who had previously been conquered. Does this work in American society? Well, Brigham Young observed that the upper classes of New England (blue blooded Brits) were turning away from family life and practicing birth control (kids kinda get in the way of materialism) and they were being replaced by the "servant" class who immigrated to the US and believed i having children (Irish, Germans, etc.). Interesting that the largest ethnic groups in the US today are those of Irish and German descent.

Yet today the northern and central European population is being replaced by the African and Hispanic population. This means there will be a cultural shift but it remains to be seen if this will affect what we identify with American culture in a couple of generations.

In short, to blame homosexuality and bisexuality on the downfall of a culture is unwarrented. These lifestyles are indicative of turning away from traditional values which generally implies materialism and pride which will lead to less reproduction.

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Well, this is where I will give an opinion.

In a free society, sexuality is an unmoderated expression.

That doesn't mean a (supposed to be) private institution such as a Church cannot legislate differently toward it's membership, though.

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That's not the direction I was hoping to approach this discussion from. Rather, just that from a Mormon view it would be a move away from the nuclear family which you view as the bedrock of society do you not?

I think it's probably generally safe to say that LDS believe that wickedness in general leads to the downfall of societies. There are two examples in the Book of Mormon itself: The Jaredites and the Nephites. Nowhere do we have record of homosexual activity in either of these societies, yet they were both destroyed. There are many forms of wickedness and depravity, just as there are many things that lead to the destruction of the family, not just homosexuality.

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Well, this is where I will give an opinion.

In a free society, sexuality is an unmoderated expression.

That doesn't mean a (supposed to be) private institution such as a Church cannot legislate differently toward it's membership, though.

Wingnut answered it. What was good for Greece is not good for the Lands of America. They are already forewarned on what to expect if they choose other than the GOD's Laws.

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Well, this is where I will give an opinion.

In a free society, sexuality is an unmoderated expression.

That doesn't mean a (supposed to be) private institution such as a Church cannot legislate differently toward it's membership, though.

Thank you for the opinion. This topic can easily get us riled up, but I hope we can remain civil.

If a society can only be free if sexuality goes unmoderated, then does not your opinion indicate that you cannot have a free society if it has restrictions/laws against public nudity, rape, age of consent, etc?

I'm thinking you can 'moderate' these things, and still have a free society. A free society to me, indicates people's unmoderated ability to chose for themselves which laws they'll follow, through a peaceful and just method, and they're free to go somewhere else if they don't like it.

LM

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If a society can only be free if sexuality goes unmoderated, then does not your opinion indicate that you cannot have a free society if it has restrictions/laws against public nudity, rape, age of consent, etc?

If a society is not high stress, these things are unlikely to occur. The large majority of crimes such as those you describe are committed by those from low socio-economic backgrounds (just look at prison demographics).

A properly educated population, needs no control (and by that I don't necessarily mean "the a+ kids" but rather the kids that are lucky enough to be taught how to think, communicate with others, etc,). How many people do you know that, say work for universities or pioneer in scientific work that have committed acts of rape, etc,?

Nudity is not a bad thing, to my mind. There are plenty of cultures, such as those of Tahiti (well, pre-missionary) that didn't wear clothing and were quite fine. Granted, I'm not saying that people should 'go naked' in our culture - our value systems do not really attribute comfort to that, because we're raised wearing clothing.

The real "social control" lies in relevant education. Not taxes, not laws, not electric fences, not prisons, torture, etc,.

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