Seer stones

[Just_A_Guy]

I have tried to imagine one of the illustrations of the Seer Stone Enhanced Translation Process gracing the cover of the Ensign Magazine.

Well, the Seer stone may not ever have made it on the cover, but consider this:

Joseph’s use of a seer stone in translating was mentioned many times in official church publications including the Improvement Era in 1904 (again B.H. Roberts in “The Probability of Joseph Smith’s Story,” March), again in the Improvement Era in 1906 (April), 1920 (September), and 1939 (October). Jumping ahead to 1977 (and I haven’t done an exhaustive search between those thirty-nine years), we find an Ensign article by LDS historian Richard Lloyd Anderson entitled, “‘By the Gift and Power of God’”. In this article Anderson quotes Edward Stevenson who learned about the Book of Mormon translation from Martin Harris.

“‘He [Harris] said that the Prophet possessed a seer stone, by which he was enabled to translate as well as from the Urim and Thummim, and for convenience he then used the seer stone.’” (Anderson [1977], 80).

Here we see that every Latter-day Saint with access to the official Church Ensign magazine (which I would guess may be over 60%) would have had an opportunity to read about Joseph’s use of a “seer stone.” The seer stone was mentioned in Ensign articles again in 1979, 1986 (Dallin Oaks), 1987, 1993, 1994, and 1997 (Neal Maxwell) and perhaps since then (my search index ends in 1997). In an 1988 article in Ensign entitled, “A New Prophet and a New Scripture,”, Kenneth Godfrey wrote,

“Once Martin found a rock closely resembling the seerstone Joseph sometimes used in place of the interpreters and substituted it without the Prophet's knowledge. When the translation resumed, Joseph paused for a long time and then exclaimed, ‘Martin, what is the matter, all is as dark as Egypt.’ Martin then confessed that he wished to ‘stop the mouths of fools’ who told him that the Prophet memorized sentences and merely repeated them” (Godfrey, 11).

[Emphasis added]

Frankly, if we (and I include myself in this) spent a little more time studying official Church publications, we'd find some useful kernels of truth amid all that fluff.

[Snow]

Thank you for your wonderfully condescending posts Snow.

You're welcome and thank you for your wonderfully sarcastic response Ms Kettle.

If God did not want Joseph to use the seer stone from the well to translate the Book of Mormon then why on God's green Earth would God allow it?

Gee - if God didn't want innocent babies to be abused and murders, why would He allow it? You're not making much of a point here; besides which, I never said God didn't want it. Perhaps he thought it would help out the superstitious Joseph as he matured.

If it were not an instrument of the Lord then it would not have worked as one. It is my understand that all instruments of God are dedicated to a sacred purpose, hence it is consecrated, maybe not with oil or what not, but consecrated in some fashion.

Again I ask - who dedicated it? When? Where? What are your sources?

From what I have read about Joseph Smith it does not seem that he is the sort of person to say, "Hey! A spiffy stone that looks like the ones in the breast plates. I can use this!" He seems the sort of person to ponder about it, mull it over, talk to his wife about it, and eventually pray about the use of the stone. Or maybe he saw it and prayed the moment he got the chance, I don't know. And that's the thing none of us really know.

And maybe prior to using the stone for the BoM he used it to hire himself out, perhaps without much enthusiam, and use it to hunt for buried treasure.

Oh wait - that's not a maybe. That's what he did... and by his own admission, he wasn't very good at it and outgrew it.

The facts? Who here has all the facts? No one. The fact is that we do NOT have all the details on the manner in which the Book of Mormon was translated. We only have bits and pieces of it. But it's enough for people to freak out about if it's not their personal perception of how the translating went, even to the point of calling the seer stone a peep stone which has a negative connotation to the name. It's enough that Satan uses it to shake the foundation of someone's testimony in the Gospel.

I am guessing that you haven't read Bushman's The Beginnings of Mormonism, or Given's By the Hand of Mormon. Bone up, there's plenty to learn from the Church's top scholars.

I am curious to know just how you think that the truth may shake someone's testimony.

Oh and before I forget, Snow, I've not heard of Joseph believing in folk magic. Then again, he was in his fourteenth year. Anyway, where did you hear that?

I am not clear on what your point is. Do you think that you not knowing about it is somehow significant? If you are up for serious study you can try D. Michael Quinn's Early Mormonism and the Magic World View. That's only one of many, many, sources. While I don't accept his conclusions, he is a top notch LDS history scholar whose use of primary sources is massive.

[Snow]

Well, if you never heard it then heard he found a stone on a neighbours garden and used it to translate, as opposed to a special instrument planted there by Moroni hundreds of years before...Doesn't quite have the same 'romantic' image.

I want to try and accept this, but I'm grimacing at the thought of Joseph Smith using stones to translate a book. If you think about it from a lay persons point of view it does sound far fetched. Like...u really believe that? Saying it in my own head sounds ridiculous. I do believe in the book of Mormon tho. I just don't think it can be false. But the method of translation just doesn't sit right with me. What was it I read in D&C the other day-You will have a stupor of thought?? I have had it...so now I'm REALLY confused!!!

And by the way I'm still praying and asking if its true..like I do every day.

Well lighten up.

When one is first faced with the facts of any religious history - be it the OT, the NT, early Christianity or early Mormonism, there is always a period of reflection, consideration and attempted reconciliation. Those with true testimonies emerge from it stronger, smarter, more logical and committed to Christ.

[Soul_Searcher]

Well, the Seer stone may not ever have made it on the cover, but consider this:

[Emphasis added]

Frankly, if we (and I include myself in this) spent a little more time studying official Church publications, we'd find some useful kernels of truth amid all that fluff.

True, but in 1997 (the latest article) I was only 14. The other dates I was a child under 12. I was still reading th New Era then! So this is the first time Ive heard about it.

Well lighten up.

OK, Snow, I will. I will lighten up and stop taking the church seriously in my quest for answers answers and truth. In fact, I wont Bother at all, I'll just give up. It would be a lot easier and a hen night Im goin on next week wont be quite as difficult if I drink, so I'll lighten up there and have a few. Is that what you mean??

The church is hard for me at the minute. I'm doing my best to work through all the questions and problems I have with a fine toothed comb and a number of methods. If I am not as perfect as you in understanding and accepting things pertaining to the church, then being the good person that you are, you would know that I need a little more understanding than you do at the minute. :)

Edited April 18, 2009 by Soul_Searcher

[prospectmom]

When one is first faced with the facts of any religious history - be it the OT, the NT, early Christianity or early Mormonism, there is always a period of reflection, consideration and attempted reconciliation. Those with true testimonies emerge from it stronger, smarter, more logical and committed to Christ.

__________________

This is so true for me anyway

[TruthSeekerToo]

Snow thanks for the book recommendations.

I don't have a problem with the stone in the hat method so much as hiring out as a treasure finder.

I thought he had this stone before getting the plates. <headscratch>

I also thought the U&T was taken away when the 116 pages were lost and wasn't given back.

Not a sticking point for me, but I like to know what is true.

[PastorBob]

The Urim and Thummin are in a safe in the Salt Lake temple, and what is so weird about the methods used to "translate" the book of Mormon?

Joseph Smith was given a copy of Francis Barret's "The Magus" for his 12th birthday by his father, and he worked, almost daily, extensively, with the practices therein. They even found the seal of Jupiter in his jacket pocket when he was killed.

But... if he DIDN'T use these things, wouldn't that make him a false prophet? You better believe it.

The bible is littered with these kinds of practices. Jesus spat in the mud and put it on the eyes of a blind man to make him see, a prophet told a leper to bath in the Jordan river, Samson let his hair grow long to absorb astral energy, the list goes on and on.

THE OCCULTISM OF THE BIBLE AND THE KABBALAH

Rabbi H. Geffen, 32 degree, F.P.S.

THE NEW AGE - FEBRUARY 1950

(The New Age Magazine is the Official Organ of Scottish Rite Freemasonry)

Kabbalah is a knowledge of Divine Wisdom. This truth is the foundation stone upon which the regenerating and saving portion of every true religion is based. The Kabbalah transmits to us such knowledge as the adepts of those times chose to commit to writing.

Our Masonic spiritual allegories are based on the Kabbalah, which is known to us moderns as the Kabbalistic Doctrine.

Monotheism is the only true religion. Masonic students claim the Bible to be an occult book wherein the Kabbalistic system is embodied in allegories and symbols. The written and oral laws are dependent on and complete each other.

The Kabbalah originated with the Essenes, and also with the initiated Talmudists, who arranged Kabbalistic schools that followed Akiba and Simon Ben Jochai, who consolidated it into a scientific system in the Books, Jetzirah and Zohar.

The two chief classics of the Kabbalah, Jetzirah and Zohar, attributed respectively to Akiba and Simon Ben Jochai, reveal the basis of the occult religion of the Hebrews. The most ancient and most comprehensive is the Sefer Jetzirah, probably written by Rabbi Akiba. The Zohar teaches us that true Torah, or Law of Moses, is not in the literal but in the allegorical interpretation of the Pentateuch.

Philo Judeas, in his treatise "On the Allegories of the Sacred Laws," elucidated in a very cautions manner a few of these subjects: the Creation, the Garden of Eden, the Deluge, the Tilling of the Earth by Man, the Confusion of Languages, the Migration of Abraham, His Two Wives, and many more such subjects having mystic truth as their foundation.

Moses probably received and revived the Monotheism of Abraham. But, the Divine Kabbalah is the spiritual interpretation of material symbols and emblems. It is this tradition-namely, the esoteric Law of Moses-which is the Torah, whereof is recorded in the Talmud: "Moses received the Oral Law from Sinai and delivered it to Joshua, and Joshua to the Elders, and the Elders to the Prophets, and the Prophets to the Men of the Great Synagogue." It must, therefore, be well understood that the Torah thus mentioned by the Talmud is not the written, but the Oral Law, or Kabbalah, transmitted by tradition from generation to generation, until collected by Simon Ben Jochai and preserved in the volume of the Zohar. The Talmud is the Oral Law and is, in itself, in some places of a Kabbalistic character as a symbolical vehicle of the Divine Kabbalah.

There were two traditions in the Occult Kabbalah, an exoteric tradition perpetuated and an esoteric tradition wherein the Kabbalah was transmitted. The exoteric tradition is permeated with Kabbalism. One must be a studious Mason to discern the esoteric direction from the exoteric customs having no divine object.

It is not my purpose here to write the story of Moses. It is well known that he had obtained the hidden mysteries of Egypt, but he annulled the superstitious belief of the Egyptians and he built a true Monotheistic creed of Divine Wisdom. Hence, he insisted on worship being directed exclusively to Jehovah, the One Universal Omnipotent God; he also insisted on perfect purity of thought, word and deed. As a true Prophet we must suppose that his sacrifices consisted not of the shedding of innocent blood, but his intention was to prevent the people from human sacrifices.

In studying diligently Masonic Occult Philosophy, we, must thus take into consideration that the Bible is a Kabbalistic Book, allegorically written and symbolically illustrated. The systems of the Kabbalah and Esoteric Masonry are identical, and for this reason the Masons call their Temple the Temple of Solomon. All the Masonic ceremonies have a Kabbalistic base. Their virtue is not doubted. There are moral, hygienic and spiritual rules of conduct given. The highest thought that Kabbalah and Masonry ever expressed was Universality. Although the Bible history is allegoric and symbolic and has much fable, it is doubtless founded upon truth.

Moses and the Prophets, the Essenes, and the Tanaim were occultists and, consequently, most if not all their writings are manifestly or occultly treatises on Kabbalah; and we can say with certainty that they were the forerunners of Masonry. This assumption must naturally occur to the minds of only right thinking Masons, who are penetrated by the sublime virtues of our order and are justly entitled to bear the name of Occult Masonic students.

[Snow]

Snow thanks for the book recommendations.

I don't have a problem with the stone in the hat method so much as hiring out as a treasure finder.

I thought he had this stone before getting the plates. <headscratch>

I also thought the U&T was taken away when the 116 pages were lost and wasn't given back.

Not a sticking point for me, but I like to know what is true.

Going from memory here...

1. He only did a little bit of treasure seeking, not too willingly, as a kid, and he says he wasn't very good at it.

2. He had the stone before the plates.

3. It seems that he used the stone for the rest of the BoM after the U & T was removed.

[Snow]

The Urim and Thummin are in a safe in the Salt Lake temple, and what is so weird about the methods used to "translate" the book of Mormon?

Well that's untrue PastorBob. Careful about spreading false rumors.

[Snow]

This is so true for me anyway

And how is going for you? Stronger testimony or weaker as a result.

[PastorBob]

Well that's untrue PastorBob. Careful about spreading false rumors.

I don't spread rumors...

Joseph Smith: America's Hermetic Prophet

[Snow]

I don't spread rumors...

Joseph Smith: America's Hermetic Prophet

Well that's completely false.

Here's proof:

The Urim and Thummin are in a safe in the Salt Lake temple,

If you are a real pastor I assume you are ashamed.

[PastorBob]

Well that's completely false.

Here's proof:

If you are a real pastor I assume you are ashamed.

I see you have a bone to pick with me. And no, I not only do not care what other people think of me, nor I do have the ability to feel guilt or shame, or conscience.

The only "urim and thummin" used was that rock, and if you check the other urls in the scripture study forum, you will read that it was found in a drawer in the temple, and is now being kept in a safe, along with Wilford Woodruff's Qabalistic squares.

If Joseph Smith did not use that rock, and used something else, then he is a false prophet; if he was not using the occult also, he then is a false prophet.

Are you telling me, that he was not using it, and was not practicing magic? I used to assume that he was bogus until a friend of mine in the church brought to light that he was indeed a practitioner, and I admitted my mistaken approach due to my ignorance, and began to study the book of Mormon, giving it the same credence as the Bible, Koran, and other scriptures written by divinely inspired prophets.

If you would like to prove that Joseph Smith was not an occultist and prophet, used something other than that rock, was not a Gnostic, and was not divinely inspired, please provide some proof.

I did not come here to convert or argue, only share and learn, but I have seen enough evidence to prove Joseph Smith was a prophet, and will not easily be convinced otherwise.

[BenRaines]

During my lifetime the idea of a occultist has carried a negative connotation. More of someone who deals in black arts and evil spirit worship. I am sure my definition is off as I wager that the occult could be defined as anything to do with spirits, good or bad.

Please clarify your definitions of some of these words to let us know what your beliefs are regarding the occult and what it means to you.

Ben Raines

[Snow]

I see you have a bone to pick with me. And no, I not only do not care what other people think of me, nor I do have the ability to feel guilt or shame, or conscience.

Oh, okay PastorBob - you lack the capacity for human emotion - your mother was a crop circle and your father was the computer HAL from 2001, A Space Odyssey I take it.

The only "urim and thummin" used was that rock, and if you check the other urls in the scripture study forum, you will read that it was found in a drawer in the temple, and is now being kept in a safe, along with Wilford Woodruff's Qabalistic squares.

I'll take correct names for $500 Alex - that's the seer stone Bright Eyes, not the Urim and Thummim.

If Joseph Smith did not use that rock, and used something else, then he is a false prophet; if he was not using the occult also, he then is a false prophet.

Say it with me now - "non-sequitar" - come one now, give it a try.

[PastorBob]

During my lifetime the idea of a occultist has carried a negative connotation. More of someone who deals in black arts and evil spirit worship. I am sure my definition is off as I wager that the occult could be defined as anything to do with spirits, good or bad.

Please clarify your definitions of some of these words to let us know what your beliefs are regarding the occult and what it means to you.

Ben Raines

That is satanism, not the occult. Occultism is the study of hidden things, the divine science of the spiritual.

[jakephillips1]

Oh, okay PastorBob - you lack the capacity for human emotion - your mother was a crop circle and your father was the computer HAL from 2001, A Space Odyssey I take it.

I'll take correct names for $500 Alex - that's the seer stone Bright Eyes, not the Urim and Thummim.

Say it with me now - "non-sequitar" - come one now, give it a try.

I hate to "butt" in here but you snow are one nasty person and if you are a fellow latter day saint you are a poor one to be attacking people with such obvious pride motivated insults. In fact you give me a bad nonspiritual feeling while your perceived enemy does just the opposite. You remind me of those mentioned Helaman 3:33 And in the fifty and first year of the reign of the judges there was peace also, save it were the pride which began to enter into the church -- not into the church of God, but into the hearts of the people who professed to belong to the church of God. Seems to me clear as day that Mr. Bob is telling the truth and you look like you cannot stand hearing anything even remotely associated with the truth.

[bytebear]

I see you have a bone to pick with me. And no, I not only do not care what other people think of me, nor I do have the ability to feel guilt or shame, or conscience.

The only "urim and thummin" used was that rock, and if you check the other urls in the scripture study forum, you will read that it was found in a drawer in the temple, and is now being kept in a safe, along with Wilford Woodruff's Qabalistic squares.

If Joseph Smith did not use that rock, and used something else, then he is a false prophet; if he was not using the occult also, he then is a false prophet.

Are you telling me, that he was not using it, and was not practicing magic? I used to assume that he was bogus until a friend of mine in the church brought to light that he was indeed a practitioner, and I admitted my mistaken approach due to my ignorance, and began to study the book of Mormon, giving it the same credence as the Bible, Koran, and other scriptures written by divinely inspired prophets.

If you would like to prove that Joseph Smith was not an occultist and prophet, used something other than that rock, was not a Gnostic, and was not divinely inspired, please provide some proof.

I did not come here to convert or argue, only share and learn, but I have seen enough evidence to prove Joseph Smith was a prophet, and will not easily be convinced otherwise.

A couple points.

1. The instruments given with the golden plates are described in the Book of Mormon as "interpreters'

Alma 37: 21, 24, 38

Mosiah 28: 14, 20

If you search the Book of Mormon for the words "urim" and "thummim" you will find no entries.

2. Although Joseph Smith called his work a "translation" it was really an interpretation, since the tools he used were interpreters.

3. The term "urim and Thummin" was give to the interpreters some time later, after the connection to the Biblical devices was seen. D&C 10:1 and D&C 17:1 were updated from the original text to include the phrase U&T.

4. The seer stone is just another interpreter. Apparently interpreters can come in many forms. There is no first hand evidence that Smith used the seer stone in the translation of the Book of Mormon. Every first hand account talks about the interpreters being used. Unfortunately, the waters have been muddied between the two devices, but I believe that the seer stone was used after the angel returned the plates as a tool that replaced the interpreters which were returned with the plates.

5. The understanding between prophetic interpretation and secular translation helps clarify the JST as well as the Book of Abraham.

6. Occultism and Christianity's fear of it is a recent phenomenon, as recent as 1960, when concepts like the evils of the pentagram became a standard test for evil. Unfortunately history has a very different view of such things. For example, the pentagram was a mideval symbol for the five wounds of Christ, and was used anciently by the Jews as the official seal of Jerusalem. So, not all things considered evil today were considered evil in the past. Folk "magick" was common in Smith's day, and was not seen as evil but in harmony with the teachings of Christianity.

7. The bible is filled with so-called "occultic" practices. Below is a non-LDS link explaining some of them

Divination, magic & occultic activity in the Bible

Edited April 19, 2009 by bytebear

[PastorBob]

Bytebear: I absolutely love your article. Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ also cursed the fig tree to wither to demonstrate the power of God.

jakephillips1: Thank you for the effort, but there is no need to defend me. I am hardly alone in my beliefs; but I am totally alone in making them available to outsiders, and they tend to make people very uncomfortable, and I understand that, and expect to be attacked as a result - but I just ignore it.

I have no desire that my faith finds roots in another, only that the tenets are made available, and help people in their own faith, as Joseph Smith's and other Mormon prophet's works have done for me, despite my not being a Mormon.

Humanity is all one big family, and it makes little difference to me what a person's faith is.

Edited April 19, 2009 by PastorBob
Mispelling correction.

[Snow]

I hate to "butt" in here but you snow are one nasty person and if you are a fellow latter day saint you are a poor one to be attacking people with such obvious pride motivated insults. In fact you give me a bad nonspiritual feeling while your perceived enemy does just the opposite. You remind me of those mentioned Helaman 3:33 And in the fifty and first year of the reign of the judges there was peace also, save it were the pride which began to enter into the church -- not into the church of God, but into the hearts of the people who professed to belong to the church of God. Seems to me clear as day that Mr. Bob is telling the truth and you look like you cannot stand hearing anything even remotely associated with the truth.

Mr Pot, meet Mr Kettle.

Think about it for a moment.

You just called me names and implied that I am a liar, and it the process, you are factually and demonstrably wrong when you say PastorBob is telling the truth - now, when you say that he is telling the truth, I do not not if you are being deliberately dishonest or if you are merely uneducated on the matter of Urim and Thummim / seer stone.

On the other hand, I said no such things to PastorBob, 1. I merely called attention, sarcastically, to his very strange statement that he has no conscience and cannot feel guilt. First, I think that is very likely untrue, and second, if true, would make him a sociopath. It's very, very odd. 2. PastorBob asserted that the U & T are in the SL Temple. That is false. He was corrected and persisted in spreading untrue information. 3. Pastor Bob made the absurd claim that if JS did not use "that rock" he is a false prophet. I said that was a non-sequitar... and in fact it is - you can look it up. 4. I didn't say anything about it but he also claimed / implied that Joseph Smith and Wilford Woodruff were practiioners of Jewish mysticism.

Before you go around saying false things and calling people names you ought to get your facts straight Jake.

[Snow]

I am hardly alone in my beliefs; .

Really?

Who else believes that the Urim and Thummim are in the SL Temple?

Can you share some credible references?

[jakephillips1]

Really?

Who else believes that the Urim and Thummim are in the SL Temple?

Can you share some credible references?

My wife bless her soul said she actually recalls reading in the ensign that there is an office for the prophet in the temple and that there is a stone which was used by Joseph Smith in it along with his masonic jewel and some of his papers and I've no reason to doubt it. But let's take the attention off that for a moment and let's focus on you... I bet it makes you feel like a real big man to try and tear down people there snow. I bet you are one of those "Sunday Mormons" who only pays lip service to the gospel and is a scrawny four eyes so busy finding faults in people that you can't even get a date. I saw that you are acting all high and mighty when addressing other people too. Sorry to burst your bubble there bub but let's have you call his bluff and actually come up with some evidence to the contrary of his claims.

[Snow]

My wife bless her soul said she actually recalls reading in the ensign that there is an office for the prophet in the temple and that there is a stone which was used by Joseph Smith in it along with his masonic jewel and some of his papers and I've no reason to doubt it.

Yeah - that's the seer stone, not the Urim and Thummim.

But let's take the attention off that for a moment and let's focus on you... I bet it makes you feel like a real big man to try and tear down people there snow. I bet you are one of those "Sunday Mormons" who only pays lip service to the gospel and is a scrawny four eyes so busy finding faults in people that you can't even get a date. I saw that you are acting all high and mighty when addressing other people too. Sorry to burst your bubble there bub but let's have you call his bluff and actually come up with some evidence to the contrary of his claims.

Jake Honey,

What's the word when someone does what they accuse others of doing? Do you know? Can you say?

Hint: it starts with Hypo and ends with critical.

You are the guy that whined that I wasn't nice to PastorBob. Right? And you are also the guy that called me nasty and a scrawny four-eyes that can't get a date? Am I supposed to take you seriously? That's a real question - am I supposed to take someone serious who pretends to be bent about someone else not being nice but then calls that person all sorts of names... seriously?

What do you have - 2 posts here? And 100% have attacks and insults and name-calling. Are you getting enough fiber in your diet? How's you're cholesterol?

Edited April 20, 2009 by Snow

[PastorBob]

My wife bless her soul said she actually recalls reading in the ensign that there is an office for the prophet in the temple and that there is a stone which was used by Joseph Smith in it along with his masonic jewel and some of his papers and I've no reason to doubt it. But let's take the attention off that for a moment and let's focus on you... I bet it makes you feel like a real big man to try and tear down people there snow. I bet you are one of those "Sunday Mormons" who only pays lip service to the gospel and is a scrawny four eyes so busy finding faults in people that you can't even get a date. I saw that you are acting all high and mighty when addressing other people too. Sorry to burst your bubble there bub but let's have you call his bluff and actually come up with some evidence to the contrary of his claims.

Please stop.

If I am only going to cause contention here, and be accused of lying, I will just go away.

I too read this in the Ensign magazine, and that is what I base my assumption on.

As for being accused of being a sociopath, well, if not having a conscience makes me one, then I suppose I am one; I do not have a problem with that description.

As a Gnostic, I believe that one is supposed to listen to their heart, not conscience, which in my faith is the voice of satan.

I will just head off, and let Mr. Snow fight with you and himself. I have no desire to insult or argue with him. Frankly, I have better things to be doing besides.

The light of Christ be with you all.

[Snow]

Oh, and Jake dear,

If you want proof, you can try:

Given, Terryl, By The Hand of Mormon, (Oxford, New Your) p 256n.

Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 3 vols. (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1956), 3:225.