Seer stones

[Snow]

Please stop.

If I am only going to cause contention here, and be accused of lying, I will just go away.

Relax Bob. You aren't causing contention. You are merely confused.

I too read this in the Ensign magazine, and that is what I base my assumption on.

There is no Ensign article that says that the U & T are in the Salt Lake Temple. If there were, you would have posted it by now.

As for being accused of being a sociopath, well, if not having a conscience makes me one, then I suppose I am one; I do not have a problem with that description.

I have no idea what your story it, whether you are a socio/psycho-path, or not, but someone with no conscience and no ability to experience guilt has a serious personality disorder. Frankly I just think you don't know what you are talking about. You certainly don't sound like someone without a conscience.

As a Gnostic, I believe that one is supposed to listen to their heart, not conscience, which in my faith is the voice of satan.

Conscience is the voice of Satan? That's very strange PastorBob - very, very strange.

The light of Christ be with you all.

It's with all of us PastorBob - it's called a conscience.

[john doe]

Okay guys, let's try to be nice.

[Soul_Searcher]

I was under the impression that the urim and thummim were buried with the plates. If thats the case why did he need a stone from a neighbours farm to do it?

[Hemidakota]

The U&T were from the people of Jared that was buried with the plates. The hard part for Joseph as he learned how to use them, they were simply to big to wear. I do think, it maybe Moroni or perhaps unknown servant of the Lord, ensure that there were seer stones in the neighborhood to aid Joseph in translating the plates.

Again, read the material I had linked in the background of when, how, why Joseph required the U&T and then Seer stones to translate the plates.

[Snow]

The U&T were from the people of Jared that was buried with the plates. The hard part for Joseph as he learned how to use them, they were simply to big to wear. I do think, it maybe Moroni or perhaps unknown servant of the Lord, ensure that there were seer stones in the neighborhood to aid Joseph in translating the plates.

Again, read the material I had linked in the background of when, how, why Joseph required the U&T and then Seer stones to translate the plates.

I think that the simple answer is - he didn't (need them). He simply found them useful. He outgrew them as he matured.

[applepansy]

I was under the impression that the urim and thummim were buried with the plates. If thats the case why did he need a stone from a neighbours farm to do it?

This is all explained in Richard Bushman's book "Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling" starting on page 130.

As Jospeph progressed in hearing the voice of the Lord he needed less and less, until finally in the later years of his life he didn't need anything to aid him in hearing God's voice.

My question for this thread is "why is this an issue"? If you believe that Joseph Smith saw the Father and the Son, received the plates, translated them and you believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God, then arguing over something like this is a waste of time and effort.

applepansy

[Hemidakota]

Snow, he did need them...only to be replaced by a stone to view the translation. He was not educated enough without a seer device at that point. It was after that learning curve of translating the plates through the seer stone where it was not necessary for him in using such devices.

[Snow]

Snow, he did need them...only to be replaced by a stone to view the translation. He was not educated enough without a seer device at that point. It was after that learning curve of translating the plates through the seer stone where it was not necessary for him in using such devices.

I guess this is where we differ.

1. I do not believe that a prophets ability to receive revelation or "translate" without a stone or interpreters is a function of education.

2. I believe that God can achieve what God wants to achieve (coming forth of the BoM) with or without props.

[Faded]

I have spoken to several people about the use of seer stones/hats etc on the translation process. They all seem to be fine with it, and accept its normal. I was quite shocked to find this out really, and cast doubt on JS a Prophet (still some there). What I want to ask is, if this is ok and normal, why are we not taught this as we are with the urim and Thummim? Why not say, 'As we know, JS translated the BOM using many different methods...etc'. It seems like its not willingly broadcast like its contraversial or something? Why are we not taught this as a matter of course? I only ask as this seriously affected me when I found out.

Obviously I'm getting to this thread late. But why is this one a problem? Moses used a TON of props in various miracles that God used to teach Israel. Does the "magic stick" brazen serpent make him a false prophet just because it is an object? If you wanted to, you could get very insulting on many of the objects from Moses' ministry. It goes like this:

Moses wore a veil. Clearly a symbol of deceit. He lifted up a brazen serpent. It's a snake. Snakes are, in Biblical terms, symbols of Satan. So was Moses using a Satanic emblem? And a burning bush? Burning like Hell beneath us burning? Another symbol of Satan! Clearly, Moses was a messenger of Hell not Heaven!

No I absolutely do not believe any of what I just said. Moses was a prophet of God. The point is this: You can spin any object that any prophet used to sound bad. You can very easily go through the Bible and completely shred pretty much any prophet of God in it by putting a bad spin on things. But why would you do that? What Spirit leads any man or woman to do that to any prophet, ancient or modern?

As for the Seer Stone and Urim and Thummim, we know very little because Joseph Smith told us very little. That does not make them irrelevant, but it does make it difficult to have a Sunday School lesson on them. We have a good general idea of what they looked like. The current prophets and apostles might have such things and they might not. Is the idea of the Urim and Thummim and Seer Stone really that unusual when compared to the Biblical prophets? And what other examples of true prophets of God can we use as a measuring stick for comparison?

Edited April 22, 2009 by Faded

[Snow]

Obviously I'm getting to this thread late. But why is this one a problem? Moses used a TON of props in various miracles that God used to teach Israel. Does the "magic stick" brazen serpent make him a false prophet just because it is an object? If you wanted to, you could get very insulting on many of the objects from Moses' ministry. It goes like this:

Moses wore a veil. Clearly a symbol of deceit. He lifted up a brazen serpent. It's a snake. Snakes are, in Biblical terms, symbols of Satan. So was Moses using a Satanic emblem? And a burning bush? Burning like Hell beneath us burning? Another symbol of Satan! Clearly, Moses was a messenger of Hell not Heaven!

No I absolutely do not believe any of what I just said. Moses was a prophet of God. The point is this: You can spin any object that any prophet used to sound bad. You can very easily go through the Bible and completely shred pretty much any prophet of God in it by putting a bad spin on things. But why would you do that? What Spirit leads any man or woman to do that to any prophet, ancient or modern?

As for the Seer Stone and Urim and Thummim, we know very little because Joseph Smith told us very little. That does not make them irrelevant, but it does make it difficult to have a Sunday School lesson on them. We have a good general idea of what they looked like. The current prophets and apostles might have such things and they might not. Is the idea of the Urim and Thummim and Seer Stone really that unusual when compared to the Biblical prophets? And what other examples of true prophets of God can we use as a measuring stick for comparison?

Yeah - I don't think it is big deal. The bigger deal is the incorrect version we were all raised with. Pity.

[Moksha]

Who else believes that the Urim and Thummim are in the SL Temple?

Can you share some credible references?

You made the fly ointment awfully sticky with the extra requirment of being credible.

(no, these are not them!)

[Faded]

Yeah - I don't think it is big deal. The bigger deal is the incorrect version we were all raised with. Pity.

Putting two and two together, it seems just possible that the reason we don't get long explanations about the Jaredite Urim and Thummim and the one Aaron had -- is because there's something sacred there that can't be discussed a great length by the servant of God who had them. The Urim and Thummim is certainly mentioned in the Bible, but it's use is never explained.

Joseph Smith did offer this much:

Doctrine and Covenants 130:10-11

10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;

11 And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word.

It sounds to me like an item that must be in the same category as the Temple ceremony - something that isn't discussed at great length with the entire world because the Lord said not to. If that leads the current Apostles and Prophets to seek to not draw too much attention to it, I think I can live with that.

But it IS discussed. I learned about it in High School Seminary class, for instance.

[tubaloth]

I was under the impression that the urim and thummim were buried with the plates. If thats the case why did he need a stone from a neighbours farm to do it?

I'm guessing you missed my last post. So lets try it again.

Lets look at this from God's view.

You have an uneducated Non-member trying to translate a book of scripture. You realize at some point in time this non-member well become a member and get the Holy Ghost and the priesthood.

But until that time comes you need something "More powerful" to really help him through the translation (and reach the point in the book of mormon to where he asks about baptism and gets the priesthood).

This is why the U & T was used. It is a more powerful tool because during this time (being a non member) Joseph Smith needed a more powerful tool. After Joseph Smith got the Holy Ghost (which has the gifts of the spirit) and the Melchizedek priesthood (which has the Keys of the mysteries of God). Joseph Smith didn't need the power of U & T anymore. The seer stone would in some way harness the power Joseph Smith had. This then even changed to where Joseph Smith didn't need the seer stone either.

My other posts (in this thread, and the other thread) talk about the same thing. Thats my take on your question.

[Snow]

I'm guessing you missed my last post. So lets try it again.

Lets look at this from God's view.

You have an uneducated Non-member trying to translate a book of scripture. You realize at some point in time this non-member well become a member and get the Holy Ghost and the priesthood.

But until that time comes you need something "More powerful" to really help him through the translation (and reach the point in the book of mormon to where he asks about baptism and gets the priesthood).

This is why the U & T was used. It is a more powerful tool because during this time (being a non member) Joseph Smith needed a more powerful tool. After Joseph Smith got the Holy Ghost (which has the gifts of the spirit) and the Melchizedek priesthood (which has the Keys of the mysteries of God). Joseph Smith didn't need the power of U & T anymore. The seer stone would in some way harness the power Joseph Smith had. This then even changed to where Joseph Smith didn't need the seer stone either.

My other posts (in this thread, and the other thread) talk about the same thing. Thats my take on your question.

Wow.

1. In what way is the Holy Ghost not as powerful and a breastplate, bows and lenses?

2. If not by the power of the Holy Ghost, how did the U & T function.

3. Can you post some evidence that Joseph Smith didn't have the Holy Ghost working for him while he translated the BoM?

4. Since most of the BoM was translated without the U & T, can you explain the power that was at work?

[trulykiwi]

I am just happy to know the BOM has been translated and that Joseph was a true Prophet of god. It doesn't matter to me how it was done!

[Snow]

I am just happy to know the BOM has been translated and that Joseph was a true Prophet of god. It doesn't matter to me how it was done!

Ooohhh - there's nothing better than history my friend.

[tubaloth]

1. In what way is the Holy Ghost not as powerful and a breastplate, bows and lenses?

Not as powerful?

I’m not saying that. I’m saying the Holy Ghost is more powerful then the U & T.

What are you saying?

2. If not by the power of the Holy Ghost, how did the U & T function.

Some gift of translation.

3. Can you post some evidence that Joseph Smith didn't have the Holy Ghost working for him while he translated the BoM?

I site the same post that I have shown twice before (once in this thread and once in the other thread we had about the seer stone)

Maybe the answer is simple enough that Joseph Smith used both.

Now that still doesn’t sit well with me. Would Joseph Smith use the seer stone Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and the U & T on Tuesday, and Thursday?

But as I kept going through all the different accounts of the Urim & Thummim I found this:

Quote:

We noted earlier that the Prophet Joseph used the Urim and Thummim for translation in some instances and not in others. We wish we knew more about this process. However, two items will help our understanding. The first is a statement from the Prophet himself with reference to receiving the Holy Ghost immediately after he was baptized. Remember, this was after he had already translated much of the Book of Mormon by means of the Urim and Thummim. The statement is as follows:

Immediately on our coming up out of the water ... we were filled with the Holy Ghost, and rejoiced in the God of our salvation. Our minds being now enlightened, we began to have the scriptures laid open to our understandings, and the true meaning and intention of their more mysterious passages revealed unto us in a manner which we never could attain to previously, nor ever before had thought of. (JS-H 1:73-74)

It appears that having the Holy Ghost in such abundance after baptism was a greater aid in understanding "the true meaning and intention" of the scriptures than even using the Urim and Thummim had been before baptism.

(Susan Easton Black and Charles D. Tate, Jr., eds., Joseph Smith: The Prophet, The Man [Provo: BYU Religious Studies Center, 1993], 83 - 84.)

I don’t know why, but this kind of bridged the gap in my mind. I still don’t know if this is 100% the way things happen, but it does help bring into line all the different accounts.

So, Joseph Smith used the U & T up and until around the 3 Nephi section. Joseph Smith then is baptized, and maybe this was enough in itself to help Joseph Smith’s ability to translate now became easier? (if I can use that word). I have to think this probably fully didn’t happen until after he got the Melchizedek and the Holy Ghost a couple weeks later. But the time frame is close enough. Joseph Smith could have been for a time (a week or so) used both the U & T as he realized he might not need the U & T as he use to.

4. Since most of the BoM was translated without the U & T, can you explain the power that was at work?

But where is your evidence that “most” was translated with out the U & T. I’m on the other side of the coin. I’m saying MOST was translated with the U & T (up until 3 Nephi). After that, Joseph Smith had the power himself, and thus could use something less powerful such as a seer stone.

For me this brings all the accounts together. Believe what you want, but I am going to follow Susan Easton Black and Charles D. Tate line of thinking.

[Snow]

Not as powerful?

I’m not saying that. I’m saying the Holy Ghost is more powerful then the U & T.

What are you saying?

I'm refering to your post where you said that the U & T were more powerful than the HG.

"This is why the U & T was used. It is a more powerful tool because during this time (being a non member) Joseph Smith needed a more powerful tool. After Joseph Smith got the Holy Ghost (which has the gifts of the spirit) and the Melchizedek priesthood (which has the Keys of the mysteries of God)."

Maybe you just posted in error but you said that JS needed a more powerful tool. More powerful than what? You seem to answer the unspoken question in the next sentence where later, once the more powerful U & T was no longer needed, the HG came in.

But where is your evidence that “most” was translated with out the U & T. I’m on the other side of the coin. I’m saying MOST was translated with the U & T (up until 3 Nephi). After that, Joseph Smith had the power himself, and thus could use something less powerful such as a seer stone.

For me this brings all the accounts together. Believe what you want, but I am going to follow Susan Easton Black and Charles D. Tate line of thinking.

I think that use of the seer stone is now common knowledge and is the majority opinion, although I don't know much about Black and Tate's views.

Joseph Smith and seer stones - FAIRMormon

[Just_A_Guy]

Yeah - that's the seer stone, not the Urim and Thummim.

As I recall, Joseph Fielding Smith said the stone was kept in the First Presidency vault. That vault is located (per Turley in his history of the Mark Hoffman affair) in the Church Administration Building, immediately adjacent to the office of the President of the Church. Not in the Temple.

Frankly, the Holy of Holies is not (IMHO) sufficiently secure to keep something like that. The room opens directly into the Celestial Room; while the doors are kept locked a determined thief could smash the doorknob, grab whatever was in the room that he sought, and muscle his way halfway out of the building before the temple workers could make it to a phone.

Edited April 23, 2009 by Just_A_Guy

[Maya]

I said thsi befor and I say it again... WHAT would a person from 1830 think of a mobiletelphone? or a similar thing... you sure would see the text better in a hat as the scribe would need light to write. Maybe the curtin between the scribe and JS was also to keep the light away?

[Hemidakota]

Wow.

1. In what way is the Holy Ghost not as powerful and a breastplate, bows and lenses?

2. If not by the power of the Holy Ghost, how did the U & T function.

3. Can you post some evidence that Joseph Smith didn't have the Holy Ghost working for him while he translated the BoM?

4. Since most of the BoM was translated without the U & T, can you explain the power that was at work?

I have to agree...when we finally can 'TALK' openly with our friend, who happens to be the third member of the Godhead, there is no need for any mortal items to converse. However, in the beginning, it was needful for him to learn before achieving that state.

[tubaloth]

Maybe you just posted in error but you said that JS needed a more powerful tool.

Yes, as being a Non-member he would not have the same “Gifts” as being a member.

Or more, as we teach in the church, there is a difference from feeling the Holy Ghost (which anybody can have) versus having the Holy Ghost as our constant companion.

As Joseph Smith explains, after being baptized and having the Holy Ghost fall upon him, it opened his mind to things he never saw before.

So, what I was trying to explain is the problem of trying to get a non member to reach the point of baptism (to where he would get the Holy Ghost).

I have to assume the U & T had added power (that Joseph Smith didn’t have) to allow him to translate. I’m not saying the Holy Ghost wasn’t there, but it was there at a smaller degree. Because it wasn’t until after his baptism did the power of the Holy Ghost manifest.

I think that use of the seer stone is now common knowledge and is the majority opinion, although I don't know much about Black and Tate's views.

I’m not debating the use of the seer stone. I’m debating how much it was used. Your argument is that it was used for “Most” of the book of mormon. I have yet see any proof for that. The only way to prove that is to know what was translated by the seer stone (how many verses).

The page you site is the common problem I see. They mix and mingle the use of the seer stone and the U & T together. So much so that they are trying to make them seem like they are the same thing.

My argument is if I’m trying to take Joseph Smith’s, Oliver Cowdery’s and David Whitmer’s accounts of the translation process all together. The only way I can do that is find some event in Joseph Smith’s life that gave him a reason to use the seer stone more then the U & T.

I guess the debate can still go on which is more powerful (U & T or seer stone).

But for me, pulling in Black’s and Tate’s idea of the experience when Joseph Smith was baptized is the event I’m looking for. After this event Joseph Smith now has more power then he had before. I can now see why the U & T wouldn’t be used anymore, because the power Joseph Smith got (from the Holy Ghost or Priesthood) was something he didn’t have before, at least not to same degree. Now I can see why the seer stone could have been used.

This also fits because from what I have read near the end of the translation process is when Joseph Smith spent some time in one of the Whitmer’s home. This would account for what David Whitmer either saw or was told.

Also, this would mean that Joseph Smith translated “most” of the book of mormon (in to 3 Nephi) with the help of the U & T. I have no proof of any of this. But, when Joseph Smith says he translated by the aid of the U & T, I don’t have a problem with that, because most of it was translated by the U & T.

[tubaloth]

I guess the debate can still go on which is more powerful (U & T or seer stone).

I guess the debate is over

“To Joseph and his contemporaries, they were all the same type of thing, and merely differed in the strength of their power and ability. Clearly, devices from the Lord when directed by an angelic messenger (such as the Nephite interpreters) would outrank a seer stone found on one's own.”

Joseph Smith and seer stones - FAIRMormon

[Hemidakota]

Then who will translate the other portion of the plates?

[Snow]

Yes, as being a Non-member he would not have the same “Gifts” as being a member.

Or more, as we teach in the church, there is a difference from feeling the Holy Ghost (which anybody can have) versus having the Holy Ghost as our constant companion.

As Joseph Smith explains, after being baptized and having the Holy Ghost fall upon him, it opened his mind to things he never saw before.

That's kind of an irrelevant point with Joseph Smith. As an unbaptised, un-ordained believer, he was receiving personal visits from God the Father, God the Son, receiving personal visits from Celestial angels, receiving scripture-ready revelation, etc.

I have to assume the U & T had added power (that Joseph Smith didn’t have) to allow him to translate. I’m not saying the Holy Ghost wasn’t there, but it was there at a smaller degree. Because it wasn’t until after his baptism did the power of the Holy Ghost manifest.

Seriously - what kind of power could the U & T have had? Internal combustion? Electromagnetism?

Revelation comes from God / Holy Ghost. The U & T had no power of it's own.

I’m not debating the use of the seer stone. I’m debating how much it was used. Your argument is that it was used for “Most” of the book of mormon. I have yet see any proof for that. The only way to prove that is to know what was translated by the seer stone (how many verses).

The U & T was taken away after the lost 116 pages.

The page you site is the common problem I see. They mix and mingle the use of the seer stone and the U & T together. So much so that they are trying to make them seem like they are the same thing.

You missed the whole point. They are not the same thing but people have historically mistaken them as the same thing.