The Protestant Reformation: Were its Doctrines Inspired?

[Faded]

Jonathan, I must apologize. I have every intention of responding, but until further notice, I'm going to have very limited access to the Internet. So I will respond when I get a chance.

I should definitely clarify:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faded;

"1.) Personal Study: There are not enough people who deign

to call themselves Christians who never bother to study for themselves,"

If you rephrased that as either "There are not enough people who deign

to call themselves Christians who bother to study for themselves", or

"There are too many people who ..." I'd agree with it. (The rephrasing

would also be more congruent with the rest of the paragraph.

You are absolutely correct. This was an editing typo. What I intended was:

"Personal Studay: There are not enough people who deign to call themselves Christians who actually bother to study the Scriptures for themselves."

The tragedy is that most "Christians" will rely on someone else to learn the Bible on their behalf, so they don't have to. They will rely on someone else to get to know God very well on their behalf, so they don't have to. They will rely on someone else to learn the doctrines and teaching of God and Christ, so they don't have to. This unequal relationship and unequal responsibility is truly saddening. I would be curious how you think this problem can be solved.

[jblake]

They will rely on someone else to learn the doctrines and teaching of God and Christ' date=' so they don't have to. This unequal relationship and unequal responsibility is truly saddening. I would be curious how you think this problem can be solved.[/quote']

Short of lining them up against a wall, facing a firing squad, for not studying the Bible for themselves?

jonathon

[AnthonyB]

Erik,

So which baptism is Eph 4:5 talking of when it says there is "one" baptism?

There is no textual problems in the text. (Well a very small issue at the end of verse 6)

"One body and one spirit, just as also you were called in one faith when you were called.

One lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and father to all, who [is] near all and through all and in all."

I can't think you'd want to affirm there is two of any of the others, so why decide on two baptisms?

Clearly the writers of Nicea saw one baptism which did both of what your two baptisms do.

I could you give a page of quotes from Tertullian, Justin Martyr, Augustine, Aquinas and Luther on the topic but I'll quote Zwingli himself....."In this matter of baptism all the doctors have been in error from the time of the apsotles."

So on what basis do you decide on two baptisms? You have IMHO scripture, creed and the full weight of church tradition for 1500 years against you.

If your asking what this has got to do with your original post, in part it is where I think the reformation got it wrong.

Edited June 7, 2009 by AnthonyB

[ErikJohnson]

Erik,

So which baptism is Eph 4:5 talking of when it says there is "one" baptism?

There is no textual problems in the text. (Well a very small issue at the end of verse 6)

"One body and one spirit, just as also you were called in one faith when you were called.

One lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and father to all, who [is] near all and through all and in all."

I can't think you'd want to affirm there is two of any of the others, so why decide on two baptisms?

Clearly the writers of Nicea saw one baptism which did both of what your two baptisms do.

I could you give a page of quotes from Tertullian, Justin Martyr, Augustine, Aquinas and Luther on the topic but I'll quote Zwingli himself....."In this matter of baptism all the doctors have been in error from the time of the apsotles."

So on what basis do you decide on two baptisms? You have IMHO scripture, creed and the full weight of church tradition for 1500 years against you.

If your asking what this has got to do with your original post, in part it is where I think the reformation got it wrong.

Hey AnthonyB--

I appreciate your tenacity and recognize this is a core issue for you. Perhaps I would have done better to characterize spiritual baptism as regeneration (whether Zwingli would concur with this—I have no idea).

I look to my own experience when I became a Christian on the evening of June 1, 2005. At that moment in time, God gave me a new heart and a radically new direction. Had I died later that evening, I have no doubt I would have gone to be with Jesus. Yet I wasn't physically baptized until ~ 2 months later. They were separate, though certainly related events. (Obviously I'm ignoring my LDS baptism at age 8. My motivation back then was to please my parents and the other adults in the old Renton 4th Ward. I had no idea who Jesus really was or what He had accomplished for me.)

And when I look to Scripture, I see a distinction been the physical act of washing and regeneration by the Holy Spirit. (1 Peter 3:21, Mark 1:8; Romans 6:4; Colossians 2:12). That is what I meant by spirtual baptism.

Rather than continue to discuss it here--my suggestion is that you open a thread on the subject of Baptism, and what it means to LDS and Christians alike (this is an LDS hosted forum, after all).

Regards,

--Erik

[AnthonyB]

Erik,

It isn't me that made a big deal of baptism, its Jesus in the "Great Commission" Matt 28:18-20 and Mark 16:16, Peter in Acts 2:38 etc....

Taking the 1st verse above 1 Pet 3:21, people clearly don't take the time to read 1 Pet 3:20. The symbolism mentioned in the verse is that of Noah's flood waters pointing to our baptism, not our baptism pointing to our real salvation sometime else. If Ephesians really says there is only 1 baptism, then Rom 6:4 and Col 2:12 make a very different case. As for Mark 1:18 it contrasts John's baptism to Christian baptism, which is why the disciples who had already had John's baptism were rebaptised in Acts (in order to receive the Holy Spirit.)

My personal experience is not greatly different from yours but if scripture and experience don't match, then for me its an issue. I see baptism as the central point of the salvation process, what happens before is God in his graciousness takes the wil of obedience to baptism somehow in lieu of the act and bestows before the real event occurs.

Anyway I will desist and stop pestering you, and rather rejoice that you have obeyed Jesus command.

Edited June 8, 2009 by AnthonyB