Daughter was sexually molested...


RadioactiveWolfboy
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I must apologize. I am such a spaz sometimes. I seriously forgot that I had read replies to my other post, and responded to them. I've been under alot of stress lately and if you ask my wife, she'll tell you that I am lucky to remember my own name. I'm sorry if people felt I was lying or telling mistruths. I'm really not that kind of person.

I never thought you were that kind of person, nor did I think you were lying.

My harshness is because of your daughter's needs, and how urgent they are. I've tried to soften it up a bit, and it sounds like you are taking the right steps now. Good luck

Elphaba

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Rich, It occurs to me that no one has mentioned how important intercessory prayer is for effective counseling. I'd assumed that your daughter is seeing a Faith-based counselor... but just in case, I thought I'd mention it. Sometimes we miss the most obvious things.

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Guest missingsomething

Ok ya'll,

This person - may not be perfect... and how dare he not follow all of our advice exactly the way we think he should! ANd wow - he can't remember what people said to him a year ago? WOW.

Show me a perfect parent... I wanna see one... ESPECIALLY when they are faced with something many of us have not experienced (thank goodness).

Its NOT his fault for not recognizing what was happening. He probably ignored promptings from the spirit, subtle cries from his daughter, and yes not believing the other YW was bad. People dont put seeking the Spirit as their guide in life enough. Many parents ignore warning signs because they dont know to look for them - especially people int he church- they believe by sheltering their children from "worldly things and tempations" they will keep them safe. But blinders dont prevent problems - they only keep you from seeing them... What a great thread for us to learn from - to recognize perhaps the signs in our children or to learn from this man's pains how to deal with something if it comes up in our life. I also realize that because he is here talking about his feelings does not mean he is ignoring his daughter's feelings and needs.

Radioactive----

You have suffered a loss here too. I would suggest like Hemi- that you seek counsel too. You probably do see a great diff. in your daughter because this guilt, pain, anger and frustration that she has carried for most of her life finally has an outlet. Just understand, like Elphaba not so softly said... she wont be "fixed" quickly. What happened to her has molded her into the person that she is - now pray that she can use this for good in her life.

While there is a "greater good" in trying to repair the relationship--- because the family didnt commit the sin -or should I say.. Im trying to say-- hate the sin, love the sinner.... you need to seriously pray about this. You can forgive them without subjecting your family to them. You're grieving the loss of the friendship, I get that... but pray about this because you can make other friends. I could probably eventually forgive this family (who seems to have blinders on like many parents..."oh not MY child"...) but I would not continue contact with them. To me, that is like resalting the wounds. Don't try to "fix" things to ease your pain. Address the pain, guilt that you feel and grow from it. Dont run from it. But as long as you continue (or start) to protect your family, look out for their best interest, and seek the Holy Ghost's confirmation of your choices - Christ will not blame you for forgiving these people.

Feeling like you are glad that the offender is suffering is NORMAL. I really think your family could benefit from family counseling -

And Hemi is right - this was not the only factor that made her go goth (not that "goth") is bad. Just move forward. And keep praying.

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Its NOT his fault for not recognizing what was happening.

I didn't realize anyone was blaming him for this, but now that you mention it...

RWB's story does make an excellent reminder for all parents out there, to read up on the warning signs that a child has been abused. It's true, we're not born knowing this stuff, and much of this stuff is surprising if you've never thought about it.

I can suggest an excellent book: Miss America By Day. It has a ton of resources for parents on how to spot and avoid potential abusive situations, as well as how to help your kid if you find out too late.

LM

Edited by Loudmouth_Mormon
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This person - may not be perfect... and how dare he not follow all of our advice exactly the way we think he should! ANd wow - he can't remember what people said to him a year ago? WOW.

If you're going to comment on my posts, please at least read them first.

The people's posts I am referring to were not just sympathetic posters giving him support. They were from people who have been through the agony his daughter was, and is going through. That gave them more weight.

They were articulate, and emphatic, that he had a responsibility to take care of her, and even gave specific suggestions, and because they had all been through this, their suggestions were basically all the same. That should have given more weight to them.

I also acknowledged they were only a few posts, and that might be why he didn't take them seriously.

Show me a perfect parent... I wanna see one... ESPECIALLY when they are faced with something many of us have not experienced (thank goodness).

I acknowledged this, a number of times.

Its NOT his fault for not recognizing what was happening.

In every one of my posts addressed to Rich I acknowledged this, and said it wasn't his fault. What I said was it would be his fault if he continued to do so from now on, as his daughter is STILL in the crisis.

But blinders dont prevent problems - they only keep you from seeing them.

Exactly. That is why I have been so vehement in this thread. If he continues to keep his blinders on, his daughter will continue to suffer.

I also realize that because he is here talking about his feelings does not mean he is ignoring his daughter's feelings and needs.

Of course I never said that. It is perfectly fine for him to come here and talk about his feelings.

What I said was that if he continued to handle things the way he has in the past, then he would be ignoring his daughter's feelings and needs.

I know my posts are wordy, and perhaps this is the disconnect. But if you're going to take the time to respond, at least make sure you're responding to what I actually wrote.

Elphaba

Edited by Elphaba
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Elph I think I understand the line you're trying to walk here -- you're frustrated for the daughter's sake because Richard didn't act on the advice he got last time, and you're trying to control that frustration and just make sure get through to him this time -- but there's a tone woven through parts of your posts that comes across overly harshly, and I think that's what people are reacting to. It might help if you could lighten your tone a bit - just remember when you post that lots of times it's not just a matter of knowing what to do, it's being collected enough to do it, and that can be very difficult. He's been traumatized too, afterall. I can only imagine what a confusing time that would be for a parent. I'm sure he already feels like he's in way over his head.

Jiminy

PS - He did say she'd been in counseling for four weeks, but he didn't say she was completely healed, he said she was "doing better". That is very plausible.

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Elph I think I understand the line you're trying to walk here -- you're frustrated for the daughter's sake because Richard didn't act on the advice he got last time, and you're trying to control that frustration and just make sure get through to him this time --

Yes, that is why.

[but there's a tone woven through parts of your posts that comes across overly harshly, and I think that's what people are reacting to. It might help if you could lighten your tone a bit -

I know, you're right. I really am trying to work on that, though it doesn't look like it here.

I'm sure he already feels like he's in way over his head.

I agree completely. In fact, I suspect he is suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder, and I said that in one of my posts. That's why I keep saying he needs to get help with this as well.

He did say she'd been in counseling for four weeks, but he didn't say she was completely healed, he said she was "doing better". That is very plausible.

I don't doubt this is true at all. I just got the feeling he thinks that because she's doing better now, that her pain will be resolved soon. That's not going to happen.

Thank you for your insight. I do appreciate it.

Elphaba

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I knew all of this, and I suspect you are right that most bishops understand this and are responding appropriately. But not all bishops. I know of at least four relatively recent incidents, one of them on this board. Now I know a fifth.

My mother has observed an attitude in her ward that women are not believed when they go to their bishop about these issues. My mother was severely abused by my father for twenty years, and has done a good deal of reading about it since then to understand why she stayed, why she didn't get help to protect us, etc., and it is true it was a different world then. The help available to women today did not exist then.

But she understands there is much more to it, because of the very complicated emotional survival mechanisms that kick in while in this nightmare, including denial. The effects of this are the same as having been in a concentration camp, and if you don't know how to recognize that, and look for it, you're not going to understand that.

So my mother felt inspired to go to her bishop and ask if she could do a presentation to help all of the ward's authorities to understand the emotional dynamics of abuse, because that is, in her opinion, why so many women are dismissed or not believed that the situation is as bad as they say.

He was receptive, and even said he'd talk to the stake president about it, and see if maybe he'd join the discussion. I believe she talked to him one more time about it, but then she never heard from them again. I have no idea why, but they had a perfect opportunity, from a woman who has been there, to further their understanding, and they didn't take it.

Perhaps they didn't believe she was really as well-versed as she thought she was. Perhaps they believed the Church's training was enough. I really don't know and am not willing to presume their dismissal of her was just an 'I know better than you" attitude.

But in a way, it was similar to dismissing a woman who comes to him because she is currently being abused. For whatever reason, they did not think my mother was worth listening to, and I personally believe it is because, while they are trained, they have absolutely no clue about the emotional dynamics of abuse that cause the abused to either not communicate well, to communicate the wrong message, or to barely communicate at all. These are all very common in the abused, because it is born out of terror.

These were the things my mother wanted to help them understand. And no, I do not believe the Church's training covers these issues in-depth, because it is complicated and not easily understood.

In the case of Rich's bishop, I don't see how the Church's training taught him anything. Rich went to him for help, and he did nothing. He especially had a responsibility to Rich's daughter, and again, he did nothing.

Rich did avail himself of his bishop. His bishop did nothing.

No, he said four weeks. He has ignored her needs in this situation. I'm not saying he did it purposely, because I don't believe he knew any better. But that is why I'm frustrated with him. When he brought this situation to the board, he was unloading his frustrations.

A number of us recognized he did not realize the effect this was having on his daughter, and we basically told him what he should be doing to take care of her. He thanked us, said he'd pray about it, and then a year later we can see he ignored it.

I think I've made my opinions about Rich's actions very clear, and I don't want to continue bashing him. If he hears us now, I'm satisfied with that.

I know that, and I specifically said that, including that the bishop should have refererred them to LDSSS, as I realize it is best equipped to counsel LDS families. It should have happened the minute Rich told his bishop about this five years ago. But it didn't, and it's still not.

And again, the bishop should have taken every step necessary to make sure Rich's daughter felt safe in her ward. Because he didn't, that has also traumatized her.

Imagine if the bishop, and Rich, had taken these steps. If she had had a testimony, I highly doubt she would have stopped attending. With a loving and nurturing church environment, she would have found solace in that.

But she had to go into that ward every Sunday and be exposed to that man each time she did. SOMEONE should have protected her from that. Rich may not have known that, but the bishop should have, especially with his training in sexual abuse issues from the Church.

I know she did. That was my point.

Again, I don't know if I did not communicate myself well, or what. My point is her bishop, and her family, did exactly the right thing. I was using them as an example.

It depends on the person, how long the rape went on, whether or not an adult stepped in to stop it and protect her, etc.

First, let me say counseling is not the cure-all people think it is--believe me, I know that. You have to find the right person, and that is why I keep insisting to Rich he see a counselor with an expertise in sexual abuse to learn how to help his daughter. I think it would be a waste of his time to see anyone else.

I do believe a kind, loving and healing environment, with a strong support group, will do more good than counseling alone. I completely believe she has that love, as her father obviously loves her very much.

But she does not have the support group, etc., and that makes it worse. The rape went on for seven years, starting when she was, I believe, seven. Rich can correct me on that. Additionally, no one discovered it until the man confessed, so she had no adult protection during that entire time. Obviously an adult can't take care of what s/he doesn't know, and I take Rich off the hook for that.

But I gurantee you, because of the above, his daughter is not going to be better in four weeks of counseling. I still insist it will be like four years, and that is if she gets a good counselor. And, of course, I hope Rich will take the steps necessary to focus on her healing, and how to bring that about.

I also believe if she were to find peace in the Church and the atonement, like many of you have said, that would go a long way in healing her. While it is (added: not) my personal belief, I can surely see why. I hope she is able to do that at some point.

Again, I'm not sure where our disconnect is. I wrote: The only difference I see from what you're saying is that he said "in the eyes of the Church." Fine. I think she should have known she was still as innocent outside of the eyes of the Church as well. I don't know why that would have been a problem. And I believe her family did reinforce that message, and that is one of the reasons she's been able to heal from this as well as she has.

I wasn't criticizing Elizabeth's bishop. I'm saying Rich's bishop should have done with Elizabeth's bishop did.

I do too. Perhaps it would help Rich if he read about what her family did, because that is exactly what his daughter needed/needs.

Elphaba

I appreciate your response and I understand how emotional this issue and others like it are for you. I am still very thankful when you reached out with help when I needed it on another thread earlier this year.

What I have learned from experience is that even if you disagree with your bishop about something, IF you are obedient you WILL be blessed. The Lord knows our needs and he WILL make things right. People are imperfect, but obedience is essential to our progression. I realize your religious beliefs are different. But this is a true priniciple and needs to be addressed for the sake of the thead.

I apologize if I said something that was upsetting.

Sincerely,

applepansy

Edited by applepansy
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Originally Posted by Elphaba

I knew all of this, and I suspect you are right that most bishops understand this and are responding appropriately. But not all bishops. I know of at least four relatively recent incidents, one of them on this board. Now I know a fifth.

This is the reason education is the key. We invite everyone to attend a FREE symposium in June. Learn more about how to educate children but also how to counsel and help someone struggling with sexual addiction issues. Ecclesiastical Help For Counseling Porn/Sex Addiction Issues

It's free. The founder of the program will stay around to answer questions after the How to Handling Sexual Addiction Symposium.

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Originally Posted by Elphaba

I knew all of this, and I suspect you are right that most bishops understand this and are responding appropriately. But not all bishops. I know of at least four relatively recent incidents, one of them on this board. Now I know a fifth.

This is the reason education is the key. We invite everyone to attend a FREE symposium in June. Learn more about how to educate children but also how to counsel and help someone struggling with sexual addiction issues. Ecclesiastical Help For Counseling Porn/Sex Addiction Issues

It's free. The founder of the program will stay around to answer questions after the How to Handling Sexual Addiction Symposium.

I also think this would an excellent idea. However, based on your decription, it would not have helped in thise case.

It's my understanding peple who are sex addicts do not go on to commit serial sexual assault.

Additionally, the bishop could be very good at helping people with sexual addiction issues, but still have no idea how to handle victims of sexual assault crimes. They are two completely different things.

Elphaba

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Guest missingsomething

If you're going to comment on my posts, please at least read them first.

The people's posts I am referring to were not just sympathetic posters giving him support. They were from people who have been through the agony his daughter was, and is going through. That gave them more weight.

They were articulate, and emphatic, that he had a responsibility to take care of her, and even gave specific suggestions, and because they had all been through this, their suggestions were basically all the same. That should have given more weight to them.

I also acknowledged they were only a few posts, and that might be why he didn't take them seriously.

I acknowledged this, a number of times.

In every one of my posts addressed to Rich I acknowledged this, and said it wasn't his fault. What I said was it would be his fault if he continued to do so from now on, as his daughter is STILL in the crisis.

Exactly. That is why I have been so vehement in this thread. If he continues to keep his blinders on, his daughter will continue to suffer.

Of course I never said that. It is perfectly fine for him to come here and talk about his feelings.

What I said was that if he continued to handle things the way he has in the past, then he would be ignoring his daughter's feelings and needs.

I know my posts are wordy, and perhaps this is the disconnect. But if you're going to take the time to respond, at least make sure you're responding to what I actually wrote.

Elphaba

Elphaba, just because someone disagrees with your view does not mean they did not read your post thoroughly. The next post after yours was right on... a harsh tone will do nothing to convince someone to listen to you. Infact, most people when pushed will push back.

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We will be covering both topics, (i.e. being the addicted and being affected by an addicted) if we have time. However, afterwards Gordon will be sticking around to ask questions and bishops could ask him specific questions. Gordon has been talking with several bishops around Utah County and some in Salt Lake County. We want to make sure people are educated correctly.

Come to the symposium to find out for yourselves the value of understanding this addiction.

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Elphaba, just because someone disagrees with your view does not mean they did not read your post thoroughly. The next post after yours was right on... a harsh tone will do nothing to convince someone to listen to you. Infact, most people when pushed will push back.

Elphaba's point of view comes from someone who has dealt with these situations herself. THAT is why her tone is "harsh".

I have refrained from responding to this post myself because it's so angering to see some of the responses in here. Anyone who has been sexually abused themselves would be down right appalled at the lack of action on the father's behalf. It honestly makes me physically ill when I first read it. I felt Elphaba was as fair as someone could be regarding her advice towards the OP, I would have ripped his head off and probably gotten myself banned had I responded when this thread was first opened.

Your disagreeing with Elphaba's post has nothing to do with you not reading, it's true. It has to do with your severe lack of understanding regarding the years of absolute hell sexual abuse puts a person through. I honestly hope you don't ever understand, because that understanding only comes from one thing; experience. I hope that it never happens to anyone on this board.

She wasn't cruel or distasteful in her treatment or advice towards the OP, she was spot-on and a heck of a lot more tactful than I would have been.

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Elphaba's point of view comes from someone who has dealt with these situations herself. THAT is why her tone is "harsh".

I have refrained from responding to this post myself because it's so angering to see some of the responses in here. Anyone who has been sexually abused themselves would be down right appalled at the lack of action on the father's behalf. It honestly makes me physically ill when I first read it. I felt Elphaba was as fair as someone could be regarding her advice towards the OP, I would have ripped his head off and probably gotten myself banned had I responded when this thread was first opened.

Your disagreeing with Elphaba's post has nothing to do with you not reading, it's true. It has to do with your severe lack of understanding regarding the years of absolute hell sexual abuse puts a person through. I honestly hope you don't ever understand, because that understanding only comes from one thing; experience. I hope that it never happens to anyone on this board.

She wasn't cruel or distasteful in her treatment or advice towards the OP, she was spot-on and a heck of a lot more tactful than I would have been.

uummm, what lack of action?? I have tried to get my daughter into counseling since I found out about it, but she refused. I tried to press charges 4 years ago, but my daughter refused to talk / give a statement. I have stayed away from the family for the most part since it happened. I have met with church officials repeatedly. I have told my daughter repeatedly that I love her and it wasn't her fault. I just recently started talking to the family again, except for the perp / son. I have taken my daughter to appointements with a sexuall abuse crisis team. I met with the perps probation officers repeatedly to keep him away from her. I am not the best father sometimes, but I am trying. I decided after posting this time to stay away from the family. That was a tough decision as I was close to the father. I have tried to tend to this situation as Christ would have me do. My first goal has always been to protect my daughter. I have held my daughter in the middle of long nights, when she couldn't sleep and was crying because of the situation. I've put her name in the Temple, and prayed repeatedly about what to do. This is a parents worst nightmare. Have I been perfect in dealing with it? NO, But I did my best having never dealt with anything like it. It is a tough situation. I don't wish this on anybody.

Rich

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Guest missingsomething

Elphaba's point of view comes from someone who has dealt with these situations herself. THAT is why her tone is "harsh".

I have refrained from responding to this post myself because it's so angering to see some of the responses in here. Anyone who has been sexually abused themselves would be down right appalled at the lack of action on the father's behalf. It honestly makes me physically ill when I first read it. I felt Elphaba was as fair as someone could be regarding her advice towards the OP, I would have ripped his head off and probably gotten myself banned had I responded when this thread was first opened.

Your disagreeing with Elphaba's post has nothing to do with you not reading, it's true. It has to do with your severe lack of understanding regarding the years of absolute hell sexual abuse puts a person through. I honestly hope you don't ever understand, because that understanding only comes from one thing; experience. I hope that it never happens to anyone on this board.

She wasn't cruel or distasteful in her treatment or advice towards the OP, she was spot-on and a heck of a lot more tactful than I would have been.

Rachel.. personal attacks show little knowledge on your part. Please do not accuse me of not knowing the situation personally unless you KNOW ME PERSONALLY and know everything about me. Thank you.

Just because I am not comsumed with frustration and anger does not mean I do not understand fully the situation.

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uummm, what lack of action?? I have tried to get my daughter into counseling since I found out about it, but she refused. I tried to press charges 4 years ago, but my daughter refused to talk / give a statement. I have stayed away from the family for the most part since it happened. I have met with church officials repeatedly. I have told my daughter repeatedly that I love her and it wasn't her fault. I just recently started talking to the family again, except for the perp / son. I have taken my daughter to appointements with a sexuall abuse crisis team. I met with the perps probation officers repeatedly to keep him away from her. I am not the best father sometimes, but I am trying. I decided after posting this time to stay away from the family. That was a tough decision as I was close to the father. I have tried to tend to this situation as Christ would have me do. My first goal has always been to protect my daughter. I have held my daughter in the middle of long nights, when she couldn't sleep and was crying because of the situation. I've put her name in the Temple, and prayed repeatedly about what to do. This is a parents worst nightmare. Have I been perfect in dealing with it? NO, But I did my best having never dealt with anything like it. It is a tough situation. I don't wish this on anybody.

Rich

Rich-

Do not allow people who do not know you to cast stones at you for asking for help. Keep praying and the Lord will direct you which way to go. Remember - on this site you get both member (active and not) and non-member views. Take them -and pray about them. Then you if you act on the promptings of the spirit, you will make the right decisions.

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First, a word to Elphie (btw, love the screen name -- GREAT musical): I'd just like to say as I should have said before, that like AppleP, I appreciate your contributions and concern for Rich and his daughter, and I understand the emotional nature this kind of issue has for you. And I appreciate the humility you've shown and your effort to control your frustration. I can see where you've made that effort.

Second, to AppleP, regarding this point:

What I have learned from experience is that even if you disagree with your bishop about something, IF you are obedient you WILL be blessed. The Lord knows our needs and he WILL make things right. People are imperfect, but obedience is essential to our progression. I realize your religious beliefs are different. But this is a true priniciple and needs to be addressed for the sake of the thead.

I agree with you; the Lord does take good care of those who, despite personally disagreeing with it, heed the counsel of His servants. However, that is a delicate line to tow, especially in such critical situations.

Leaders do sometimes give faulty counsel (the only exceptions being the prophet and the collective Quorum of the Twelve Apostles), and in those cases, whether God intercedes to make things right or not, we come out better by obtaining better counsel to follow. Going to a priesthood leader for counsel does not release us from our obligation to study it out in our own minds and seek God's counsel. There is a danger of leaning too much upon the arm of flesh, of fearing man more than God, and we can easily forget that it is our responsibility to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, relying wholly upon the merits of Him who is mighty to save (and none else).

Simply disagreeing is entirely different from feeling that the counsel given is not actually God's will. Obedience is essential to our progression, but it is obedience to God, not obedience to local church leaders. In situations as serious as this, it is extremely important that everything is handled the right way, which, I observe, is not necessarily the bishop's way or the individual's way. Rich needs a confirmation from God that he is on the right path. Simply going on the bishop's word is not enough in this case.

Elphaba's point of view comes from someone who has dealt with these situations herself. THAT is why her tone is "harsh".

I have refrained from responding to this post myself because it's so angering to see some of the responses in here. Anyone who has been sexually abused themselves would be down right appalled at the lack of action on the father's behalf. It honestly makes me physically ill when I first read it. I felt Elphaba was as fair as someone could be regarding her advice towards the OP, I would have ripped his head off and probably gotten myself banned had I responded when this thread was first opened.

Your disagreeing with Elphaba's post has nothing to do with you not reading, it's true. It has to do with your severe lack of understanding regarding the years of absolute hell sexual abuse puts a person through. I honestly hope you don't ever understand, because that understanding only comes from one thing; experience. I hope that it never happens to anyone on this board.

She wasn't cruel or distasteful in her treatment or advice towards the OP, she was spot-on and a heck of a lot more tactful than I would have been.

Rachelle, Elphaba has already shown humility and good will in acknowledging that parts of her posts were harsher than she feels is right, and she wants to correct that. Perhaps you should ask yourself why you want to justify such harshness.

Your post implies that you have had to deal with similar abuses. I'm sorry you've gone through such horrible things. But I think you should consider the fact that due to your history, it might be you who sees this situation through a prism. To be honest, my instinct suggests that this might be a case of transference - that maybe a part of you feels that a third party is somehow culpable for another's having abused you, and you see that person in Rich. I'm not saying that's the case, I'm just offering it as a thought.

Whatever the case, you should see that Richard is not to blame for his daughter's agony. Or at very least, not in such a way that he ought to be dealt with harshly. Any contributions he may have made to his daughter's suffering were likely minimal, not due to any kind of gross negligence, and certainly not intentional. He is clearly doing the best he can in the circumstances in which he's found himself.

uummm, what lack of action?? I have tried to get my daughter into counseling since I found out about it, but she refused. I tried to press charges 4 years ago, but my daughter refused to talk / give a statement. I have stayed away from the family for the most part since it happened. I have met with church officials repeatedly. I have told my daughter repeatedly that I love her and it wasn't her fault. I just recently started talking to the family again, except for the perp / son. I have taken my daughter to appointements with a sexuall abuse crisis team. I met with the perps probation officers repeatedly to keep him away from her. I am not the best father sometimes, but I am trying. I decided after posting this time to stay away from the family. That was a tough decision as I was close to the father. I have tried to tend to this situation as Christ would have me do. My first goal has always been to protect my daughter. I have held my daughter in the middle of long nights, when she couldn't sleep and was crying because of the situation. I've put her name in the Temple, and prayed repeatedly about what to do. This is a parents worst nightmare. Have I been perfect in dealing with it? NO, But I did my best having never dealt with anything like it. It is a tough situation. I don't wish this on anybody.

Thank you, Rich, for coming out with this. I've thought several times to myself, "I don't see where Richard has said that he hasn't done or tried to do anything... I guess it has something to do with the previous thread [which I confess I haven't yet bothered to read]." Sounds to me like you're doing a good job.

Jim

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I didn't realize anyone was blaming him for this, but now that you mention it...

RWB's story does make an excellent reminder for all parents out there, to read up on the warning signs that a child has been abused. It's true, we're not born knowing this stuff, and much of this stuff is surprising if you've never thought about it.

I can suggest an excellent book: Miss America By Day. It has a ton of resources for parents on how to spot and avoid potential abusive situations, as well as how to help your kid if you find out too late.

LM

I second that book, it would be a good book for your daughter as well as you. I'm a survivor of sexual abuse myself, and one thing that helped me after I'd gotten in an abusive relationship was to finally deal with the sexual abuse through individual and group therapy for years with therapists who specialized in sexual abuse recovery. I'm pretty sure that there are therapists with LDS Social Services who specialize in abuse recovery, so it would be a good idea to get a referral from the bishop or stake president if necessary.

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Elphaba, just because someone disagrees with your view does not mean they did not read your post thoroughly.

Absolutely true.

But not with you. My first clue is that you did not agree, or disagree with anything I actually wrote.

Rather, you disagreed with views I had not written. So why would you want me to assume you had actually read my post thoroughly when you so obviously hadn't?

In my last post I went point by point and demonstrated these discrapancies, but obviously you haven't read that one thoroughly either.

There are two ways to do this:

1) Cite something I actually wrote and respond to it, which I would then be happy to discuss. This is the correct way to have this kind of conversation.

2) Refuse to cite what I actually wrote; rather, write another post full of generalizations, judgments and inuendos that have nothing to do with me or what I actually wrote.

Of course, you get to respond anyway you like, or not. Your choice.

Elphaba

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Just because I am not comsumed with frustration and anger does not mean I do not understand fully the situation.

Actually, it does.

You may have an informational understanding of sexual assault, but you have not experienced it; or perhaps I'm breing presumtuous, and you have.

I never dismiss SA, and there is not one particularly "appropriate" reaction to it, and if you're in this category, then obviously you're choice is different than mine. That's fine. But your approach does not negate mine, or Rachelle's, or the hundreds of women I have breen in groups with over a thirty-year-time span. In fact, yours would be the first that I've seen--all of the other women would have been just as agressive as I was.

We're not doing this just to be mean, for crying out loud. Let me put it this way:

Let's say twenty years down the road Rich's daughter is watching a lds message board like ours, and a father posts his story of dsicovering his daughter had been repeatedly sexually molested for a good seven years. She goes on to read how he floundered around about this, not knowing whata to do, and may have sympathy for that, because he really was tyring the best he knew how.

But then she discovers people who have been severely molested, like she was, had given him very specific actions he should have taken to protect his little girl, but he ignored them. Do you seriously think she's not going to blow up at that poster, just like we have, because she knows his daughter is STILL in crisis?

Do you think she wouldn't be every bit as harsh as abyone here is? You don't think she would be shaking his head in her hands to get him to listen to what he MUST do to help save his daughter?

I guarantee you Rich's daughter would be twice as harsh as Rachelle or I.

Stop shooting the messagers, and start focusing on Rich's daughter.The best way Rich can do that today is put his ignorant past behind (I don't mean that as a criticismm--he just was literally ignorant about what to do) and then do each and everything he can to education himelf what his rolee as a parent is from now on - - and then DO IT!

Elphaba

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First, a word to Elphie (btw, love the screen name -- GREAT musical): I'd just like to say as I should have said before, that like AppleP, I appreciate your contributions and concern for Rich and his daughter, and I understand the emotional nature this kind of issue has for you. And I appreciate the humility you've shown and your effort to control your frustration. I can see where you've made that effort.

I'm address your remarks to both me, and Rachelle's below.

As we've already demonstrated, this is a subject that hits huge buttons inside, because if I've there. It is so clear to me now that broken children need both of her parents, and a village, or in this case the girl's ward, to truly heal from this horrible ordeal, etc., etc, etc.

I am an assertive poster, and will continue to be one. Far too many people here perceive that as harsh--and they get to do that.

So when I saw Rich reverting beck into how much hurt he was in (which I know is genuine), but very little about his daughter, my assertive style escalated into an aggresision because of all of the reasons that I've eplxained before.

I'm only explaining this because you and others might not see a significant difference in my posting--but I will, and it will be enough. I seriously appreicate your commens about my tone.

Rachelle, Elphaba has already shown humility and good will in acknowledging that parts of her posts were harsher than she feels is right, and she wants to correct that. Perhaps you should ask yourself why you want to justify such harshness.

Your post implies that you have had to deal with similar abuses. I'm sorry you've gone through such horrible things. But I think you should consider the fact that due to your history, it might be you who sees this situation through a prism. To be honest, my instinct suggests that this might be a case of transference - that maybe a part of you feels that a third party is somehow culpable for another's having abused you, and you see that person in Rich. I'm not saying that's the case, I'm just offering it as a thought.

Whatever the case, you should see that Richard is not to blame for his daughter's agony. Or at very least, not in such a way that he ought to be dealt with harshly. Any contributions he may have made to his daughter's suffering were likely minimal, not due to any kind of gross negligence, and certainly not intentional. He is clearly doing the best he can in the circumstances in which he's found himself.

Here is a classic example of why those of use who have been through this lose it.

Instead of taking Rachelle at her word, and most importantly, listening to the valuable information she has to offer because she has also been there, you psychoanalyed her, thereby, dismissing her information.

Once again, I'm stunned that people will not listen to the very people who have been there. Do we sound harsh? What would you do in our shoes?

If you had discovered a friend's daughter had been raped repeatedly for seven years, was taking his precious broken angel to church every week, exposing her to that man while everyone acted like nothing happened, thus retraumatizing her over and over, what would you do? I would hope you would explain to him, as a good friend, that it was his job to protect her, and that he wasn't doing so in this particular situation. He promises you he'll fix it.

Next week you see him walk her into the chapel again, and you get irritated, because you know this isn't simply something that can be put off until the father figures it out. It has to happen now! You approach him again, where he has an excuse and says he's going to stp bringing her next week.

Third week, sure enough she's there again. Are you going to tell me you wouldn't be livid by now, and that he needs some tough love at this point, which includes harshness?

That's how we feel about Rich.

Elphaba

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To Everyone:

I understand from a parental viewpoint where Rich is coming from. I know that SA is something that hurts the victim for a long time, not just until the body heals. I agree that parents need to do all they can to help the victim.

Maybe there needs to be a forum where parents of sexually abused children can to express their frustrations and pain without being judged. No one here is living Rich's life or knows how he has responded to his unless he tells us what he's done or not done. . . or unless his daughter becomes a member here and tells us her side.

When SA occurs in doesn't just affect the child. There are other victims. The parents are victims too. Sometimes the whole family becomes victimized.

Another point is that as parents we cannot "force" our hurt child to get help. We can only be there to guide and help in the ways the child will allow. We can only make sure that help is available.

The riducule and anger and hurt feelings on both sides of this conversation need to be set aside. Good advice has been given. Please, lets not argue over whose advice is most correct.

Sincerely,

applepansy

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I have told my daughter repeatedly that I love her and it wasn't her fault.

If both your words and actions have communicated this message to your daughter, then good for you. My friend was abused from 9-11. Nobody ever told her it wasn't her fault, until she was meeting with a therapist at age 21. She got lessons on how to forgive, and she the expectation was to never do anything that would jeoparidze the perpetrator's chances of going on a mission.

It is a tough situation. I don't wish this on anybody.

Amen to that. You can't find anyone in these situations who are content or happy. The perp's daughter who was involved may look serene on the outside - she isn't on the inside. Parents, the victim, the perp, everyone involved - all of them bear this weight to one extent or another.

Not only is this a big horrible mess, but it also has very good ways of staying alive by passing itself on to the next generation. Today's victim can become tomorrow's perpetrator. We can minimize the chance of this happening, by learning everything we can about how it works, and not being afraid to talk about it.

LM

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Guest missingsomething

Absolutely true.

But not with you. My first clue is that you did not agree, or disagree with anything I actually wrote.

Rather, you disagreed with views I had not written. So why would you want me to assume you had actually read my post thoroughly when you so obviously hadn't?

In my last post I went point by point and demonstrated these discrapancies, but obviously you haven't read that one thoroughly either.

There are two ways to do this:

1) Cite something I actually wrote and respond to it, which I would then be happy to discuss. This is the correct way to have this kind of conversation.

2) Refuse to cite what I actually wrote; rather, write another post full of generalizations, judgments and inuendos that have nothing to do with me or what I actually wrote.

Of course, you get to respond anyway you like, or not. Your choice.

Elphaba

Elphaba... I was not merely responding to your response... In actuality I was responding to the multiple post that ... "here's your responses... how could he respond if he didnt see them..."

Did give MY PERSONAL feelings on this topic and did also talk about things I have seen in general.

I apologize if I said in my post... Elphaba you are wrong... I dont believe I did that nor was it my implied intent.

There are some people whose tone, such as yours and rachel (to be specific)... that seem to be harsh, especially when someone doesnt agree with you. I try to not PERSONALLY ATTACK people nor their viewpoints, but rather give MY PERSONAL views. You do not know me personally nor know much about my life, the same is true of my knowledge of ya'll.

And to be frank... this is all quite silly. Please dont take my opnions so personally - because I am not attacking YOU, just not agreeing with your views on everything.

Here's a thought, as you said... stop shooting the posters (and stop making assumptions about what someone has experienced personally).....Can we get this thread back on topic please?

Edited by missingsomething
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