Disbelieving the Scriptures.

[JohnnyRudick]

Not even the Holy Ghost? The Koran is considered scripture by many, many people. Is it "good enough evidence" for you?

(Sorry, mon ami--I couldn't resist! My mischievous side is kicking in again! )

HEP

The Holy Ghost as they say, "Goes without saying"

In that He is always a part of me and all that I do.

I suppose I will will need outside evidence of His existence also?

Maybe also that He is a He?

Next we can pick some more on God:huh:

Bro. Rudick

[JohnnyRudick]

Not even the Holy Ghost? The Koran is considered scripture by many, many people. Is it "good enough evidence" for you?

(Sorry, mon ami--I couldn't resist! My mischievous side is kicking in again! )

HEP

"The Koran"?

Yeah, right:mellow:

Bro. Rudick

[Snow]

You think "religious truth" means who was the first president of the Church? So any "truth" that in any way interfaces with "religion" is a "religious truth" to you?

This helps to explain why talking with you is so often an exercise in futility.

Words actually have meanings - you can look them up.

religion: institutionalized system grounded in belief and worship. (American Heritage Dictionary)

Well, it's gratifying that you find it so clever.

No, I used it perfectly. You simply don't understand how to use it correctly.

My bad. I thought it was designed to make you look like a jerk. It was very effective at that.

Sure. I could have written, "Snow is right."

THINK-BEFORE-YOU-POST ®

And how much does that tenant pay for rent? How long does the tenant plan to stay in our faith before it relocates? Do you think we can find other tenants to take its place once it leaves?

Or did you mean "tenet"?

THINK-BEFORE-YOU-POST ®

Snow, Snow, Snow. You just don't have it tonight, do you?

1. You cannot possibly be so dull as to think that is circular. T

THINK-BEFORE-YOU-POST ®

Lacking the ability to understand simple statements

This is the caliber of posting that comes from someone like you:

Copy what others author.

Call names - dull, idiot, etc

Whine about typos.

Copy what others author.

And that why I am not going to read the rest of your post. You have nothing cogent of intelligent, or even adult to offer.

[BenRaines]

OK people. Tone it down and stop the personal attacks. They are unnecessary.

Stick to the topic at hand.

Ben Raines

[HEthePrimate]

The Holy Ghost as they say, "Goes without saying"

In that He is always a part of me and all that I do.

Always? Really? Most remarkable--I've never met anybody like you before, who is always worthy of the Spirit's presence and does everything the Spirit instructs him to...

How can somebody as important as the Holy Ghost "go without saying?"

HEP

[JohnnyRudick]

Always? Really? Most remarkable--I've never met anybody like you before, who is always worthy of the Spirit's presence and does everything the Spirit instructs him to...

How can somebody as important as the Holy Ghost "go without saying?"

HEP

It's a "Gift":)

Bro. Rudick

[JohnnyRudick]

To most everyone else I am sad to report that the Holy Ghost does not

get through to me as He should because I am very good at blocking out His influence.

I wish that were not the case but that is the truth of it.

But He is a Gift from God that I cherish and strive to be better in

tune with even though I fail most of the time.

Most of you know of which I speak and do not have to go into evidence as with

primates.

Bro. Rudick

Edited August 1, 2009 by JohnnyRudick
Toning it down a bit:)

[Maxel]

I'll say here what (I think) I did there: God's ways are higher than our ways.

Ah - the old appeal to mystery - we humans just aren't smart enough to understand how murder and stealing and kidnapping is good and holy.... meaningless platitude.

You mean, "meaningless" iteration of Isaiah 55:9? Do you now believe that scripture is false? All I wrote was that God's ways are higher than our ways- it goes without saying that, as the cow does not understand the workings of the rancher and the rose does not understand why it is being pruned, so too we fallen beings do not comprehend all the workings and motives of God. As the cow is killed for its flesh, or the dead branches of a rosebush are pruned, so too will the Lord- the master over life and death because He bought all of our lives through the Atonement- take whom He sees fits in the manner He sees fits.

Either the Book of Mormon is true and its accounts factual or it is not.

Uh, no. It doesn't even take a millisecond of contemplation to know that is incorrect. The BoM could be doctrinally true while it's historical accounts could be as inaccurate as the bible's historical accounts.

Would you explain, Snow, why God (as you envision him, who would not even command His chlidren to kill one another in any circumstance) would allow even a single lie to be perpetuated by His angels and prophets? A perfect and just God could not lie- it rationally follows that He would not allow a lie to be perpetuated, in His name, through the millinea by His holy prophets (the prophetic writers and prophetic editors of the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith) and holy angels, who "speak by the power of the Holy Ghost"- it is rational to assume that they act by the power of the Holy Ghost as well.

Even if you could prove that (which I know you cannot), would you explain how, in a book of stories and religious history, the doctrine contained therein is divorced from the events related to said doctrine? It is quite simple to understand that the phrase "it is better for one man to perish than an entire nation to dwindle in unbelief" is doctrine, yet it is found in the account you claim is a cover-up; a lie.

Perhaps this logic is too simple for you, though?

Attempting to dilute the doctrine and truth therein to satisfy the social mores of modern society is a step on the road to apostasy.

Meaningless platitude. I can just as easily and accurately say that I, one who questions all this stuff, am 7 times further away from apostasy from you, one who doesn't question, and the evidence that I am not correct is zero.

Your claim would lack evidential support. You speak of people, not of principles- I speak of principles, not people. And do you honestly believe I have not questioned the matter? I did for a short time- until I chose to believe Nephi's own, written rationale for the killing of Laban. Since then, that seed of belief has grown inside of me, and I know that it is a good, true seed of knowledge and godly truth.

I know you disregard much of what I write as "meaningless platitudes", but I testify that this wisdom which you reject is given to me by God. I warn you- not threaten, accuse, or berate- that much of what you claim is meaningless is God-given wisdom. I say this with all the humility I can muster, and I do not mean to be condescending or hypocritical- however this is taken.

So far... nothing else has been proven, and claiming that the account of Nephi and Laban is somehow fabricated or a coverup is damaging and harmful to one's understanding of how God works among His children.

Okay - nows put up time - demonstrate that what you say is even remotely true - show that my understanding of how God works among His children has been damaged.... go on, show it.

Well?

Ah, the "put up (or shut up)" demand- remember what happened last time you said that? You were revealed to use fallacious logic, and then made your position worse by dancing around the issue.

I will answer you with the basic principles of the situation: I wish to make it perfectly clear that this is not a direct attack to you, HEP, or anyone else. I speak by the wisdom which is in me, which has been given me by the Holy Ghost as a result of faithful prayer and meditation.

The Book of Mormon is given to us as a book of scripture containing doctrine that is pure and undefiled by man's mistranslations. A key element of the Book of Mormon is Nephi's slaying of Laban- change that, and one changes the entire story after it. Key to Nephi's slaying of Laban is God commanding Nephi to slay Laban.

If one does not accept that God commanded Nephi to slay Laban, than one does not accept the possibility that God could command His children to do all things (as Nephi later claims he could do, if it was expedient) or even the truly hard things. A person fails to understand how we, God's children, are required to act when faced with someone who would rather die than allow us our God-given rights or property. This instance of unbelief becomes a crack in one's shield of faith- over time, that crack will expand and ruin the shield and its bearer will be subject to all the "fiery darts of the adversary" and will be overcome unless he repents and chooses to believe.

More basic than that, refusing to believe that God could command one of His children to kill is a refusal to accept the rights and boundaries of God's justice, preferring instead His mercy. While His mercy is vital, mercy cannot rob justice.

[Snow]

You mean, "meaningless" iteration of Isaiah 55:9? Do you now believe that scripture is false? All I wrote was that God's ways are higher than our ways- it goes without saying that, as the cow does not understand the workings of the rancher and the rose does not understand why it is being pruned, so too we fallen beings do not comprehend all the workings and motives of God. As the cow is killed for its flesh, or the dead branches of a rosebush are pruned, so too will the Lord- the master over life and death because He bought all of our lives through the Atonement- take whom He sees fits in the manner He sees fits.

Yeah - that's it. That's exactly what I mean - when I say that appeals to mystery are meaningless, I really mean that "all scripture is false."

Great thinking Maxel. Really, really great.

Why do you even bother with that kind of stuff? Do you not think that I've already thought through it much more completely that you could ever explain? Well I have.

It may be that God's ways can be above human ken, it's a lousy device to plug into a debate.

Would you explain, Snow, why God (as you envision him, who would not even command His chlidren to kill one another in any circumstance) would allow even a single lie to be perpetuated by His angels and prophets? A perfect and just God could not lie- it rationally follows that He would not allow a lie to be perpetuated, in His name, through the millinea by His holy prophets (the prophetic writers and prophetic editors of the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith) and holy angels, who "speak by the power of the Holy Ghost"- it is rational to assume that they act by the power of the Holy Ghost as well.

No, I wouldn't - because I don't believe that.

Stop making things up you wished I believed.

Even if you could prove that (which I know you cannot), would you explain how, in a book of stories and religious history, the doctrine contained therein is divorced from the events related to said doctrine?

One doesn't need to believe in talking donkeys in order to believe that man shalt not commit murder.

Gee - that's a tough one.

It is quite simple to understand that the phrase "it is better for one man to perish than an entire nation to dwindle in unbelief" is doctrine, yet it is found in the account you claim is a cover-up; a lie.

Stop making stuff up. I didn't say it was a lie. Be honest in your postings.

Perhaps this logic is too simple for you, though?

You really really smart. Me no.

Your claim would lack evidential support. You speak of people, not of principles- I speak of principles, not people. And do you honestly believe I have not questioned the matter? I did for a short time- until I chose to believe Nephi's own, written rationale for the killing of Laban. Since then, that seed of belief has grown inside of me, and I know that it is a good, true seed of knowledge and godly truth.

I know you disregard much of what I write as "meaningless platitudes", but I testify that this wisdom which you reject is given to me by God. I warn you- not threaten, accuse, or berate- that much of what you claim is meaningless is God-given wisdom. I say this with all the humility I can muster, and I do not mean to be condescending or hypocritical- however this is taken.

Oh brother. I have glad you have a testimony and all but saying that your are really really convinced of something is hardly a valid tool in a debate.

Ah, the "put up (or shut up)" demand- remember what happened last time you said that? You were revealed to use fallacious logic, and then made your position worse by dancing around the issue.

Whatever you are referring to... who knows.

I will answer you with the basic principles of the situation: I wish to make it perfectly clear that this is not a direct attack to you, HEP, or anyone else. I speak by the wisdom which is in me, which has been given me by the Holy Ghost as a result of faithful prayer and meditation.

Seriously - not appropriate in a debate. You being convinced means nothing to me.

The Book of Mormon is given to us as a book of scripture containing doctrine that is pure and undefiled by man's mistranslations.

Care to take a stab at why the BoM has KJV quotes along with KJV errors?

If one does not accept that God commanded Nephi to slay Laban, than one does not accept the possibility that God could command His children to do all things (as Nephi later claims he could do, if it was expedient) or even the truly hard things. A person fails to understand how we, God's children, are required to act when faced with someone who would rather die than allow us our God-given rights or property. This instance of unbelief becomes a crack in one's shield of faith- over time, that crack will expand and ruin the shield and its bearer will be subject to all the "fiery darts of the adversary" and will be overcome unless he repents and chooses to believe.

More basic than that, refusing to believe that God could command one of His children to kill is a refusal to accept the rights and boundaries of God's justice, preferring instead His mercy. While His mercy is vital, mercy cannot rob justice.

You're really working the platitude angle today. Did you not notice that I am not impressed by em.

I wonder if you really believe your faith is quantitatively and qualitatively better than mine. I be you do.

[JohnnyRudick]

. . .

Care to take a stab at why the BoM has KJV quotes along with KJV errors?

You're really working the platitude angle today. Did you not notice that I am not impressed by em.

I wonder if you really believe your faith is quantitatively and qualitatively better than mine. I be you do.

I have always believed that in these places the Book of Mormon affermed the so-called "errors" as being what God

caused to be written in the King James Bible and the TR.

I believe God is in control of preserving His words in the way He wishes us to have them today.

I know, My beliefs are not evidence.

Bro. Rudick

[HEthePrimate]

It is quite simple to understand that the phrase "it is better for one man to perish than an entire nation to dwindle in unbelief" is doctrine, yet it is found in the account you claim is a cover-up; a lie.

Perhaps this logic is too simple for you, though?

Since when is that phrase "doctrine," my friend? Since Caiaphas uttered it upon condemning Jesus to death?

49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,

50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

-- (John 11: 49-50)

HEP

[Dravin]

Since when is that phrase "doctrine," my friend? Since Caiaphas uttered it upon condemning Jesus to death?

HEP

Ironically what Caiaphas was saying was true, Christ did have to die so that Israel (and the whole world even) would perish not (in the spiritual sense), just probably not in the way he meant it.

Edited August 2, 2009 by Dravin

[Maxel]

Snow- you refuse to accept wisdom, whether it be given you by the scriptures or by your peers. There is nothing I can do for you or learn from you- especially when you dismiss things out of hand, call me dishonest because of the weakness of my words, and conveniently forget your past misdeeds. There is nothing "debate", as you call it, can do for you- you are entrenched in your own version of dogmatic assumptions, relying on the strength of fallen reason instead of the arm of the Lord.

For the record- I don't know if I have more faith than you, but I do know I'm quicker to believe the things the prophets have written and have been given the gift of understanding from God. Search the scriptures and humble yourself before God and man- from personal experience, I promise you that is the way to happiness. Take that as you will- I have nothing left to say to you.

[Maxel]

Since when is that phrase "doctrine," my friend? Since Caiaphas uttered it upon condemning Jesus to death?

No- since the Spirit of the Lord said it unto Nephi.

The devil and his servants may quote scripture and eternal truths to serve their own ends. That fact doesn't make the quoted scripture false- it is merely a misapplication of the truth to trick the minds of the unenlightened.

[HEthePrimate]

Ironically what Caiaphas was saying was true, Christ did have to die so that Israel (and the whole world even) would perish not (in the spiritual sense), just probably not in the way he meant it.

Next question: Who decided Christ had to die for the world?

[Moksha]

More basic than that, refusing to believe that God could command one of His children to kill is a refusal to accept the rights and boundaries of God's justice, preferring instead His mercy. While His mercy is vital, mercy cannot rob justice.

This would tend to cast God as a bit erratic, since we have been told:

1. Do not kill

2. Love one another

3. Turn the other cheek

4. Forgive those that curse you

5. Do it seven times seventy (without limit)

What's with the mixed messages?!

[Maxel]

This would tend to cast God as a bit erratic, since we have been told:

1. Do not kill

2. Love one another

3. Turn the other cheek

4. Forgive those that curse you

5. Do it seven times seventy (without limit)

What's with the mixed messages?!

God's a complex being. We must depend on the "synchronization of the Spirit" (Neal A. Maxwell phrase) to find the correct balance of seemingly opposing doctrines (other examples are foreordination vs. free will, justice vs. mercy, the good of the individual vs. the good of society).

[HEthePrimate]

God's a complex being. We must depend on the "synchronization of the Spirit" (Neal A. Maxwell phrase) to find the correct balance of seemingly opposing doctrines (other examples are foreordination vs. free will, justice vs. mercy, the good of the individual vs. the good of society).

How about if we use our God-given gift of reason, too? A lot of those are false dichotomies, anyway. Take justice vs. mercy, for example. In the scriptures, the word translated as "justice" does not mean "revenge" or "punishment" or anything like that. It simply means "doing the right thing." In other words, it is not the opposite of mercy--in fact, the "right thing" could be to show mercy, though it probably also involved repentance and restitution.

[TruthSeekerToo]

When my children make me angry and disobey me, I do not have them killed.

Our Father, who has an even more perfect love for us, would never command us to be killed. His ways are so far above our ways it takes my breath away. It makes me so sad when people use that saying to pin extremely human and beastly behavior on God. He is not so unknowable that we can't go to him and understand if he commands killing or not.

The scriptures are proof positive that the Eternal Father allows us the agency he promised. And he laid down his life that we might believe on him and live.

I have a much easier time believing that prophets lie (or that stories are symbolic) than believing that my Father in Heaven is unjust.

The Old Testament is not a shining example of how we should be living. Joseph Smith said: The priesthood of Levi consisted of cursings and carnal commandments and not of blessings and if the preisthood of this generation has no more power than that of Levi or Aron or of a bishhoprick it administers no blessings but cursings for it was an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

When you are at church tomorrow find a baby. Look at that babies face and think about whether justice would be served by killing such a perfect, beautiful child. Would you really be cleansed from such an atrocity in only 7 days?

[Maxel]

How about if we use our God-given gift of reason, too?

Reason is no excuse to refuse to believe the scriptures. Reason is well and good, but it is only as good as the person wielding it- and we learn, from sad experience, that many who cling to reason are dead wrong in their assumptions. There is a way of knowing things that is more powerful, lasting, and higher than lone reasoning- that is revelation through the Holy Ghost.

A lot of those are false dichotomies, anyway. Take justice vs. mercy, for example. In the scriptures, the word translated as "justice" does not mean "revenge" or "punishment" or anything like that. It simply means "doing the right thing." In other words, it is not the opposite of mercy--in fact, the "right thing" could be to show mercy, though it probably also involved repentance and restitution.

Justice and mercy are a false dichotomy? I think Paul the apostle would disagree with you there.

God's justice can only be tempered by His mercy, and we can only take advantage of His mercy through use of the Atonement of Christ- Christ, the only perfect being who lived, wrought an infinite atonement for the sake of mankind. Without that atonement, we would all have sinned and therefore fallen short of the glory of God, doomed to become "devils, angels to a devil" (2 Nephi 9:9) according to God's perfect justice. It is only through mercy that we are saved. The fundamental idea of the two are opposite one another.

I also take exception to your definition of "justice"- where do you see "justice" defined as "doing the right thing" in the scriptures? Among humans, "justice" might be able to be defined that way but God's perfect justice most definitely includes punishment for the wrongs of His children, and rewards for their righteous actions.

Edited August 2, 2009 by Maxel

[Guest missingsomething]

As for me and my house... we will follow the Lord and the scriptures and TRUST and have FAITH in them and in what the prophets have taught....

To each his own... we will all find out who had "got it" and who didnt eventually :)

[TruthSeekerToo]

Maxel, yes, it is only through Mercy that we are saved. You are spot on!

Christ pays the price of justice and extends us his Mercy. We only get punished when we don't repent.

In the OT the law of justice was "an eye for and eye and a tooth for a tooth." That is equal, fair, justice. Are you trying to argue that our Eternal Father doesn't want what is fair and equitable-he wants more severe punishment? Excessive punishment?

No, he does not. He wants us to accept his great Atonement and come unto him (in repentance). Then he will pay for our sins (he pays justice) so that Mercy lay claim to us. Mercy supercedes justice. Else why did our Savior suffer? Do you believe you need to suffer for all your repented sins?

Is it justice for a baby to be killed because its parents are idol worshippers? NO

Alma 34:11 Now there is not any man that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another. Now, if a man murdereth, behold will our law, which is just, take the life of his brother? I say unto you, Nay.

Even in the OT is was not just and lawful to have anyone else atone for the sins of others. The old law was also full of injustice. Death to disobedient children, adulterers, blasphemers and Caananites. Those are examples of excessive punishment.

Why did Jesus not have the woman taken in adultery stoned? That was the law. It appears that Christ is much more forgiving than some make him out to be. He didn't punish her at all. He extended mercy.

I think HEP's definition of justice is the same as the church uses. You wouldn't want to say justice is doing the wrong thing, would you? When we look at the dictionary we see that justice is righteous and fair.

Here is what lds.org says about justice. (emphesis mine)

When the Savior carried out the Atonement, He took our sins upon Himself. He was able to "answer the ends of the law" (2 Nephi 2:7) because He subjected Himself to the penalty that the law required for our sins. In doing so, He "satisfied the demands of justice" and extended mercy to everyone who repents and follows Him (see Mosiah 15:9; Alma 34:14–16). Because He has paid the price for our sins, we will not have to suffer that punishment if we repent (see D&C 19:15–20).

[bytebear]

I haven't read all the messages, but I want to jump in with a few ideas.

1. the idea of "translated correctly" does not just mean that the words are accurate, but that the meaning is correctly understood. I usually think of the phrase as "translated and interpreted correctly". This is also how I feel about the Book of Mormon, the Book of Abraham and the Joseph Smith "translation" of the Bible. Joseph Smith was given "interpreters" not "translators" and so I can say that he was interpreting the Bible as well as the scrolls, and not necessarily doing a word for word translation. He was acting as a prophet, not a scholar. We must do the same when reading the bible. We can go through all the scholarly and scientific understanding of the Bible, but without personal prophecy to interpret the meaning, we are not really learning God's will.

2. The Bible was canonized by men who were not prophets. Therefore, we can assume that some things are musings and not prophecies of Godly advice. Much of Paul's writings I look at the same way I look at the Journal of Discourses. Can you imagine if the Restored Gospel were reinterpreted by scholars? What would the D&C look like if it were compiled by historians and scholars and not by prophets? I bet we would have a lot more of the JoD and have lots of "doctrines" that really aren't.

[JohnnyRudick]

Next question: Who decided Christ had to die for the world?

The Law of Restitution did.

The Law not only decided, but the Law Required it.

Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of

God;. . ."

That was what the Law in the Old Testament was preparing us for for 4000 years, ever sense God prepared "coats" for Adam and Eve.

Jesus as you may have already learned was the ultimate Sacrifice for a rebellious world.

But only He could "lay down" His Life and after the Sacrifice "take it up again".

No other man of beast could do that and no other man or beast could stand in for an "Eternal Sacrifice".

Only Jesus, the Son of God could do it.

A little Scripture study goes a long way.

Bro. Rudick

Edited August 3, 2009 by JohnnyRudick
Afterthought:)

[Moksha]

I also take exception to your definition of "justice"- where do you see "justice" defined as "doing the right thing" in the scriptures? Among humans, "justice" might be able to be defined that way but God's perfect justice most definitely includes punishment for the wrongs of His children, and rewards for their righteous actions.

So how much of this "justice" would be the dispensing of pain and a schadenfreude reaction, in reward for the righteous, to the comeuppance of the sinners?