Leaving The Saints


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I just want to say that I just finished Martha Beck's new book "Leaving the Saints" and I really enjoyed it. I believe her story about being molested by her father, and even though it sounds like an ant-Mormon book, it really isn't. Her depiction of those flashbacks was very much like my own experiences about 4 years ago, and I was NOT in therapy when they came up. In fact, when I was molested by a male babysitter who was not Mormon, it was during the McMartin case and other witchhunts, so I kept quiet because I didn't think I'd be believed. I admire Ms Beck for her courage to tell her story, she will help other survivors like myself speak out against child sexual abuse.

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I would have been in the Nibley home, being babysat by Martha's older siblings during or approximately during the time of the alledged abuse - not that I have any personal knowledge about the abuse or lack of abuse but I do have a few thoughts about how flakey the whole thing is.

-Long history of mental illness and hospitalizations from her mental illness or rather the consequences of her mental illness.

-She gets married and it turns out that both she and her husband are homosexual, they divorce, they now have gay and lesbian lovers and she neglect to mention that in her book about her life - while not relevant to the alledged abuse, it indicates something about her credibility.

-If she is being honest now when she says that she has been an atheist since highschool, that makes her a liar in her previous books when she portrays herself and anything but an atheist... hey, whatever it takes to sell books.

-She claims, or rather implies, that the Church had goon squads out to get her ala the Danites. What would that be? Ninja Assasin Visiting Teachers?

-She claims, or rather paints the picture, that the Church bugged her phone. Was that before or after they assisted in the Watergate break-in?

-She has made numerous factual errors, errors that would have taken but a moment to check, unless of course the person making the errors wasn't making an error, but rather lying. An example would be that the BYU library purged any mention or record of her in there system. As I recall she said the same of Sonia Johnson.

-She claims that her father not only molested her, but that he rituallistically molested her. Uh-huh. How many of those kind of recovered memories turn out to be true? Practically none.

-Every single other person closest to the situation vehemently denies the molestation.

What I wonder is about the people that say, "...and I believe her." What possible basis could they have for saying they believe her. Do they know her personally and know her to be a very honest person? No (and she isn't - a fact well known to the Nibley family). Do they know the father personally and know him to be the type to dress up in ancient middle eastern garb and sexually molest little girls? No, they do not. I personally do not think so and I do have some minor basis for thinking so since I knew him at the time and was in their home. Do they know the family personally and know them to conspire together to lie about their home life in dishonest attempts to paint Martha as an emotionally disturbed soul? Er - no. In fact several of the family members are Martha supporters and fans but can't morally stand to see such an ill go unopposed.

What you really have - amoung those who say they believe the generally accepted absurd allegations - are people with an axe to grind, who are predisposed to believe something negative against the Church, even though this has nothing to do with the Church, but it is close enough that some mud may stick. Take Alpha for example. Alright with you Alpha? You are the one who labors under the impression that Under the Banner of Heaven representst true LDS history. Personally I doubt you know squat about true Mormon history but since you just make the allegation and refuse to support it i guess we will never know. Now you tell us that Martha's "recovered" memories are much like your own. Pray tell Alpha, did Dr. Nibley belong to the same Let's dress up like Abraham the Patriarch and Molest Little Girls Club that your molestor belonged to?

"Recovered memories" are notoriously unreliable. If Martha really were abused, that is terribly unfortunate. If Alpha were really abused, that too is unfortunate. But the track record of recovered memories, in the absence of corroborating evidence, is against it. Not only is there no corroborating evidence to support her allegations, there is ample evidence contradict it.

"It is not known how to distinguish, with complete accuracy, memories based on true events from those derived from other sources."

American Psychiatric Association, Statement on Memories of Sexual Abuse, 1993.

"The AMA considers recovered memories of childhood sexual abuse to be of uncertain authenticity, which should be subject to external verification."

American Medical Association, Council on Scientific Affairs, Memories of Childhood Sexual Abuse, 1994.

"The available scientific and clinical evidence does not allow accurate, inaccurate, and fabricated memories to be distinguished in the absence of independent corroboration."

Australian Psychological Society, Guidelines Relating to the Reporting of Recovered Memories, 1994.

"At present there are no scientifically valid criteria that would generally permit the reliable differentiation of true recovered memories of sexual abuse from pseudomemories."

Michigan Psychological Association, Recovered Memories of Sexual Abuse: MPA Position Paper, 1995.

"At this point it is impossible, without other corroborative evidence, to distinguish a true memory from a false one."

American Psychological Association, Questions and Answers about Memories of Childhood Abuse, 1995.

"Psychologists acknowledge that a definite conclusion that a memory is based on objective reality is not possible unless there is incontrovertible corroborating evidence."

Canadian Psychological Association, Position Statement on Adult Recovered Memories of Childhood Sexual Abuse, 1996.

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Guest estump

I'm w/ snow on this one.

I was a fan of Martha Beck. I didn't know who she had been while reading O magazine...but I suspected she at one time had been LDS. When I found out w/ this book coming out I was really excited to read it. I thought it would be similar to her articles.

I think she believes what she believes.....but I have to side w/ the rest of the family on this one. When I was molested all of my siblings came out in full force of support. When my friend outed her own father (very prominant father in the LDS community), her siblings came out in support even though it was going to be a tough road. Having everyone of her siblings and family members deny it speaks loudly to me and should to others. There is usually ONE or TWO people who would be willing to support and do....I haven't found that in her case (unless I missed something), other than her saying someone in her family (a cousin or something) supported her claims. Where is this person?

I think she is sketchy at best....

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Originally posted by estump@Mar 23 2005, 06:19 AM

I'm w/ snow on this one.

I was a fan of Martha Beck. I didn't know who she had been while reading O magazine...but I suspected she at one time had been LDS.  When I found out w/ this book coming out I was really excited to read it. I thought it would be similar to her articles.

I think she believes what she believes.....but I have to side w/ the rest of the family on this one.  When I was molested all of my siblings came out in full force of support. When my friend outed her own father (very prominant father in the LDS community), her siblings came out in support even though it was going to be a tough road.  Having everyone of her siblings and family members deny it speaks loudly to me and should to others.  There is usually ONE or TWO people who would be willing to support and do....I haven't found that in her case (unless I missed something), other than her saying someone in her family (a cousin or something) supported her claims. Where is this person?

I think she is sketchy at best....

I usually don't talk about the subject of abuse.

In my opinion, you are over-generalizing, though: you generalize that if Beck's experiences don't follow the pattern that you have established--based on a handful of cases, including your own--that it is somehow spurious. You come to conclusions too quickly. Every case is unique.

What makes you think that her siblings would even have to have known about the abuse, much less than to be in a position to rush in and be supportive of her?

You have judged too quickly!

(Something I'm sure you wouldn't have wanted others to have done, to you!)

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Originally posted by Meridiani@Mar 24 2005, 03:57 PM

What makes you think that her siblings would even have to have known about the abuse, much less than to be in a position to rush in and be supportive of her?

How about there being 10 other people in a house the size of a larger walk-in closet and her closest sister sharing a bed with her the entire time during the alledgededed abuse? And how bout an number the sibling being Martha supporter and fans wanting what best for her but not being able to sit by silently while she fabriated the charges? Er, alledgedly fabricated the charges?

Tell us and tell us true - is there any good reason why anyone should believe her?

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Originally posted by Snow@Mar 15 2005, 07:44 PM

I would have been in the Nibley home, being babysat by Martha's older siblings during or approximately during the time of the alledged abuse - not that I have any personal knowledge about the abuse or lack of abuse but I do have a few thoughts about how flakey the whole thing is.

-Long history of mental illness and hospitalizations from her mental illness or rather the consequences of her mental illness.

-She gets married and it turns out that both she and her husband are homosexual, they divorce, they now have gay and lesbian lovers and she neglect to mention that in her book about her life - while not relevant to the alledged abuse, it indicates something about her credibility.

-If she is being honest now when she says that she has been an atheist since highschool, that makes her a liar in her previous books when she portrays herself and anything but an atheist... hey, whatever it takes to sell books.

-She claims, or rather implies, that the Church had goon squads out to get her ala the Danites. What would that be? Ninja Assasin Visiting Teachers?

-She claims, or rather paints the picture, that the Church bugged her phone. Was that before or after they assisted in the Watergate break-in?

-She has made numerous factual errors, errors that would have taken but a moment to check, unless of course the person making the errors wasn't making an error, but rather lying. An example would be that the BYU library purged any mention or record of her in there system. As I recall she said the same of Sonia Johnson.

-She claims that her father not only molested her, but that he rituallistically molested her. Uh-huh. How many of those kind of recovered memories turn out to be true? Practically none.

-Every single other person closest to the situation vehemently denies the molestation.

What I wonder is about the people that say, "...and I believe her." What possible basis could they have for saying they believe her. Do they know her personally and know her to be a very honest person? No (and she isn't - a fact well known to the Nibley family). Do they know the father personally and know him to be the type to dress up in ancient middle eastern garb and sexually molest little girls? No, they do not. I personally do not think so and I do have some minor basis for thinking so since I knew him at the time and was in their home. Do they know the family personally and know them to conspire together to lie about their home life in dishonest attempts to paint Martha as an emotionally disturbed soul? Er - no. In fact several of the family members are Martha supporters and fans but can't morally stand to see such an ill go unopposed.

What you really have - amoung those who say they believe the generally accepted absurd allegations - are people with an axe to grind, who are predisposed to believe something negative against the Church, even though this has nothing to do with the Church, but it is close enough that some mud may stick. Take Alpha for example. Alright with you Alpha? You are the one who labors under the impression that Under the Banner of Heaven representst true LDS history. Personally I doubt you know squat about true Mormon history but since you just make the allegation and refuse to support it i guess we will never know. Now you tell us that Martha's "recovered" memories are much like your own. Pray tell Alpha, did Dr. Nibley belong to the same Let's dress up like Abraham the Patriarch and Molest Little Girls Club that your molestor belonged to?

"Recovered memories" are notoriously unreliable. If Martha really were abused, that is terribly unfortunate. If Alpha were really abused, that too is unfortunate. But the track record of recovered memories, in the absence of corroborating evidence, is against it. Not only is there no corroborating evidence to support her allegations, there is ample evidence contradict it.

"It is not known how to distinguish, with complete accuracy, memories based on true events from those derived from other sources."

American Psychiatric Association, Statement on Memories of Sexual Abuse, 1993.

"The AMA considers recovered memories of childhood sexual abuse to be of uncertain authenticity, which should be subject to external verification."

American Medical Association, Council on Scientific Affairs, Memories of Childhood Sexual Abuse, 1994.

"The available scientific and clinical evidence does not allow accurate, inaccurate, and fabricated memories to be distinguished in the absence of independent corroboration."

Australian Psychological Society, Guidelines Relating to the Reporting of Recovered Memories, 1994.

"At present there are no scientifically valid criteria that would generally permit the reliable differentiation of true recovered memories of sexual abuse from pseudomemories."

Michigan Psychological Association, Recovered Memories of Sexual Abuse: MPA Position Paper, 1995.

"At this point it is impossible, without other corroborative evidence, to distinguish a true memory from a false one."

American Psychological Association, Questions and Answers about Memories of Childhood Abuse, 1995.

"Psychologists acknowledge that a definite conclusion that a memory is based on objective reality is not possible unless there is incontrovertible corroborating evidence."

Canadian Psychological Association, Position Statement on Adult Recovered Memories of Childhood Sexual Abuse, 1996.

I JUST HOPE FOR YOUR CHILDREN'S SAKE THAT NOBODY MOLESTED THEM! IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU'D BLAME THEM, OR NOT BELIEVE THEM WHICH IS THE WORST THING A PARENT CAN DO TO A CHILD WHO HAS BEEN MOLESTED!!!!!!
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Originally posted by alpha_female@Mar 25 2005, 11:07 PM

I JUST HOPE FOR YOUR CHILDREN'S SAKE THAT NOBODY MOLESTED THEM! IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU'D BLAME THEM, OR NOT BELIEVE THEM WHICH IS THE WORST THING A PARENT CAN DO TO A CHILD WHO HAS BEEN MOLESTED!!!!!!

What on earth are you babbling about Bright Eyes?

Somehow you think this is about my children? I dying to hear how you figure that.

While you are busy ignoring that practically all if not absolutely all cases of recovered repressed memories of ritual abuse are bogus, perhaps you can tell us one good reason to believe Martha Beck? Just one?

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Guest estump

I was not in a rush to judge her.

said it was, s-k-e-t-c-h-y.

That is all.

She makes claims about a man who can not defend himself. I find it 'sketchy' that it took her this long to discuss it w/ anyone other than the therapist who helped her recover her memories. She says her mother believed her, but her mother now says nothing happened. Her brothers and sisters say she has been pulling this kind of stuff her entire life. She claims they have shut her out...they deny that.

I want to know what her goal was? The people who knew about my abuse, were the people who needed to. I didn't need to write a book about it and put blatant detail about what happened. Marie Osmond, in her book about PPD...did the SAME thing. She said it happened....didn't name the person....moved on. She told the people that needed to know.

Is there always a possibility it happened? Sure.....as w/ everything in life...there is always a possibility. I still like her. I enjoy her columns. I think she is smart and has great insight. It doesn't mean I am not a fan of her.....but I still find it sketchy.

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Originally posted by Snow+Mar 26 2005, 04:46 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Mar 26 2005, 04:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--alpha_female@Mar 25 2005, 11:07 PM

I JUST HOPE FOR YOUR CHILDREN'S SAKE THAT NOBODY MOLESTED THEM! IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU'D BLAME THEM, OR NOT BELIEVE THEM WHICH IS THE WORST THING A PARENT CAN DO TO A CHILD WHO HAS BEEN MOLESTED!!!!!!

What on earth are you babbling about Bright Eyes?

Somehow you think this is about my children? I dying to hear how you figure that.

While you are busy ignoring that practically all if not absolutely all cases of recovered repressed memories of ritual abuse are bogus, perhaps you can tell us one good reason to believe Martha Beck? Just one?

I am a survivor of child molestation, I knew it was wrong even as a child, but there was a fear that I wouldn't be believed, especially when that witchhunt was going on in the 80's. For that reason, I put that trauma away for years until I started having body memories and flashbacks. I WAS NOT IN THERAPY AT THE TIME!! I did seek help, and my PTSD was so bad at one time that I had to use Paxil, but when I filed for divorce from an LDS Peter Priesthood, and ultimately resigned from your church, I was able to go off the drug. Today, I'm in a support group for other survivors and continue to get therapy. You know, I don't care if you believe her or not, but I AM TELLING THE GOD'S HONEST TRUTH!!! I am a SURVIVOR!

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Guest JRodan
Originally posted by alpha_female+Mar 26 2005, 07:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (alpha_female @ Mar 26 2005, 07:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by -Snow@Mar 26 2005, 04:46 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--alpha_female@Mar 25 2005, 11:07 PM

I JUST HOPE FOR YOUR CHILDREN'S SAKE THAT NOBODY MOLESTED THEM! IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU'D BLAME THEM, OR NOT BELIEVE THEM WHICH IS THE WORST THING A PARENT CAN DO TO A CHILD WHO HAS BEEN MOLESTED!!!!!!

What on earth are you babbling about Bright Eyes?

Somehow you think this is about my children? I dying to hear how you figure that.

While you are busy ignoring that practically all if not absolutely all cases of recovered repressed memories of ritual abuse are bogus, perhaps you can tell us one good reason to believe Martha Beck? Just one?

I am a survivor of child molestation, I knew it was wrong even as a child, but there was a fear that I wouldn't be believed, especially when that witchhunt was going on in the 80's. For that reason, I put that trauma away for years until I started having body memories and flashbacks. I WAS NOT IN THERAPY AT THE TIME!! I did seek help, and my PTSD was so bad at one time that I had to use Paxil, but when I filed for divorce from an LDS Peter Priesthood, and ultimately resigned from your church, I was able to go off the drug. Today, I'm in a support group for other survivors and continue to get therapy. You know, I don't care if you believe her or not, but I AM TELLING THE GOD'S HONEST TRUTH!!! I am a SURVIVOR!

Bravo! Tell us more about yourself Alpha. I enjoy watching Sierra November Oscar Whiskey beat up on abused little girls.

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Originally posted by alpha_female+Mar 26 2005, 05:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (alpha_female @ Mar 26 2005, 05:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by -Snow@Mar 26 2005, 04:46 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--alpha_female@Mar 25 2005, 11:07 PM

I JUST HOPE FOR YOUR CHILDREN'S SAKE THAT NOBODY MOLESTED THEM! IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU'D BLAME THEM, OR NOT BELIEVE THEM WHICH IS THE WORST THING A PARENT CAN DO TO A CHILD WHO HAS BEEN MOLESTED!!!!!!

What on earth are you babbling about Bright Eyes?

Somehow you think this is about my children? I dying to hear how you figure that.

While you are busy ignoring that practically all if not absolutely all cases of recovered repressed memories of ritual abuse are bogus, perhaps you can tell us one good reason to believe Martha Beck? Just one?

I am a survivor of child molestation, I knew it was wrong even as a child, but there was a fear that I wouldn't be believed, especially when that witchhunt was going on in the 80's. For that reason, I put that trauma away for years until I started having body memories and flashbacks. I WAS NOT IN THERAPY AT THE TIME!! I did seek help, and my PTSD was so bad at one time that I had to use Paxil, but when I filed for divorce from an LDS Peter Priesthood, and ultimately resigned from your church, I was able to go off the drug. Today, I'm in a support group for other survivors and continue to get therapy. You know, I don't care if you believe her or not, but I AM TELLING THE GOD'S HONEST TRUTH!!! I am a SURVIVOR!

Well Alpha,

If you were abused then that is sad indeed. I hope you are getting the help you need, but this really isn't about you it - is it. This is about Martha Beck accusing here father of dressing up in Abraham robes and rituallistically abusing her and her claiming that the Mormon Church bugged her phones and sending the Danite goon squad to ger her.

Let's try and stay on topic, k?

What good reason is there to believe Beck?

Note: In case anyone is wondering, "body memory" is the pseudoscientific idea that although the mind forgets the abuse, repressed memories manifest in variety of physical ways - from cancer to pimples. For example, bulimia, in this context would be the body's way of acting out the trauma of having been sexually abused even though the individual has no recollection such abuse.

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As far as I've seen, Snow has only "beat up" on someone whose "abuse" appears to have existed only in her mind. The comments from Alphie and Jrodan seem to be attempts to use Alphie's past abuse to "prove" Beck's story, which is bizarre. Look at it this way; of the three of you Snow is the only one who actually knows the family.

"Recovered memory" is bunk in my humble opinion, and so is Beck's story.

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Guest JRodan

Originally posted by Outshined@Mar 28 2005, 03:42 PM

... someone whose "abuse" appears to have existed only in her mind...

It's always good to see you only embracing the "facts." Like the sign says:

<span style=\'font-family:Impact\'>No shoes

No shirt

No assumptions

No service

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Originally posted by JRodan+Mar 28 2005, 05:16 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JRodan @ Mar 28 2005, 05:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Outshined@Mar 28 2005, 03:42 PM

... someone whose "abuse" appears to have existed only in her mind...

It's always good to see you only embracing the "facts." Like the sign says:

To which "facts are you referring? Not Beck's story...

If you read the post without picking only the parts that inflame you so, you'd know that I don't believe her story. You skipped over some good stuff, by the way, like:

The comments from Alphie and Jrodan seem to be attempts to use Alphie's past abuse to "prove" Beck's story, which is bizarre.

and

Look at it this way; of the three of you Snow is the only one who actually knows the family.

:rolleyes:

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Guest JRodan

Originally posted by Outshined@Mar 28 2005, 05:21 PM

and

Look at it this way; of the three of you Snow is the only one who actually knows the family.

:rolleyes:
And, don't forget, alpha_female is the only one of any of us who actually knows alpha_female... actually. (eyes NOT rolling)
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Originally posted by JRodan@Mar 28 2005, 06:04 PM

And, don't forget, alpha_female is the only one of any of us who actually knows alpha_female... actually. (eyes NOT rolling)

What does that have to do with Beck or her book? This is not about Alpha or anything that may have happened to her.

As Snow said,

Well Alpha,

If you were abused then that is sad indeed. I hope you are getting the help you need, but this really isn't about you it - is it. This is about Martha Beck accusing here father of dressing up in Abraham robes and rituallistically abusing her and her claiming that the Mormon Church bugged her phones and sending the Danite goon squad to ger her.

Let's try and stay on topic, k?

What good reason is there to believe Beck?

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Guest JRodan

I really couldn't care less about Beck or her book, unless, of course Martha herself joined us. I am finding alpha's story and attitude interesting. Just call me silly that way.

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Originally posted by alpha_female@Mar 15 2005, 03:42 PM

I just want to say that I just finished Martha Beck's new book "Leaving the Saints" and I really enjoyed it. I believe her story about being molested by her father, and even though it sounds like an ant-Mormon book, it really isn't. Her depiction of those flashbacks was very much like my own experiences about 4 years ago, and I was NOT in therapy when they came up. In fact, when I was molested by a male babysitter who was not Mormon, it was during the McMartin case and other witchhunts, so I kept quiet because I didn't think I'd be believed. I admire Ms Beck for her courage to tell her story, she will help other survivors like myself speak out against child sexual abuse.

As a member of the Nibley family I just have one thing to say.

Didn't happen.

Setheus

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I am a survivor of child molestation, I knew it was wrong even as a child, but there was a fear that I wouldn't be believed, especially when that witchhunt was going on in the 80's. For that reason, I put that trauma away for years until I started having body memories and flashbacks. I WAS NOT IN THERAPY AT THE TIME!! I did seek help, and my PTSD was so bad at one time that I had to use Paxil, but when I filed for divorce from an LDS Peter Priesthood, and ultimately resigned from your church, I was able to go off the drug. Today, I'm in a support group for other survivors and continue to get therapy. You know, I don't care if you believe her or not, but I AM TELLING THE GOD'S HONEST TRUTH!!! I am a SURVIVOR!

I wish you a long and healthy and happy life!

(Said with real and true sincerity).

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