Leaving The Saints

[Setheus]

Originally posted by alpha_female@Mar 26 2005, 06:45 PM

...but I AM TELLING THE GOD'S HONEST TRUTH!!! I am a SURVIVOR!

Alpha, what you are using here is what is called a "justifyer". When I am interrogating someone this exact sort of thing is what I listen for as a clue that the person is either lying or not telling the entire truth.

When you need to "justify" what you are saying that in itself says a lot.

The pure truth isn't good enough....because it isn't the truth at all so you feel you must make it sound more truthful.

example: Did you clean your room? Yes. <----truthful answer

Did you clean your room? I swear on the bible I did. <----lyer's responce

There is a lot of psycology to this but this is the simplest way I could think to explain.

Also, what makes your post "G*d's honest truth"? Does He have a dishonest truth?

Of course not and that is the reason justifyers are a dead give away.

[Dale]

Hi,

On the FAIR main page it has a pretty tough review of Leaving The Saints. http://www.fairlds.org

Sincerely,

Dale

[Guest estump]

Thanks Dale...that was a great and LENGTHY review to read. :0)

[Dale]

Hi,

Estump I am not a Hugh Nibley fan. I express my differences with him all of the time. But I believe he lived & died a sincere man. Even if I believed abuse allegations as long as he stopped that behavior the matters not important to me. Now I am not sure the book isn't as strange as I heard so I doubt the allegations. I heard the books weird. I have a list of books to purchase & the book if I saw it I might buy it. I am awaiting Brent Metcalfes work on the Book of Abraham to be published in a year or two. Later this year FARM's has a huge book on the Book of Abraham coming out. I bet it will cost me sixty dollars or more to get those books. The Studies In The Book of Abraham series is cool.

Sincerely,

Dale

[Outshined]

HERE is a pretty entertaining review of Beck's book I thought you might enjoy.

[Dale]

Hi,

Outshined I heard one counter cultist felt the book would harm attempts to reach Mormons. It's just my feeling that the books bad based on others sayso.

Brent Metcalfe by the way takes the view the Book of Abraham is totally the speculative work of Joseph Smith Jr. So his book shouldn't be considered a pro-Book of Abraham book. But he's a sharp guy & I will read the book anyway.

I have a new DVD by Kerry Shirts of Mormonism Researched that hit's the popular anti-Mormon By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus by Charles Larson pretty hard. That was the best $14.95 I ever spent on a DVD. If anybody wants one I am sure he would appreciate people contacting him.

To me if I got better materials to study spending time on Beck's book is not my thing. My money burns a hole in my pocket. That's why I try not to keep actual money in my pocket. I can go through twenty dollars in a half an hour. If I am in a book store & see it I might buy it for the heck of it.

Sincerely,

Dale

[Outshined]

I hadn't heard about Kerry's DVD. Thanks for the heads up, Dale.

[Dale]

Hi,

The DVD has the round facimilie number two as the DVD label. It's pretty cool. You can tell he worked hard on it. What I notice about critics is they assume you have nothing to defend the Book of Abraham with. I have seen stuff no anti-Mormon ever deals with. They find his eccentric interpretations as wrong but never admit he got stuff close.

He defends Hugh Nibley a little. I much prefer to deal with Hugh Nibley's scholarship than rumor mongering about a dead guy.

I know we got the post off track. But Beck's book wasn't doing anything for me. I find the Book of Abraham more interesting.

Sincerely,

Dale

[Guest Yediyd]

I lean toward the rest of her family, who say she is disturbed and fabricated the story, and I do not buy her "recovered-memory" claptrap.

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,6001...0,00.html?lds=T

http://www.hughnibleydefense.com

http://www.fairlds.org/Reviews/Rvw200501.html

http://www.fairlds.org/Reviews/Rvw200502.html

http://www.fairlds.org/Reviews/Rvw200503.html

While I don't know if she is telling the truth or not, I will say that I WAS abused by my father and I DO remember it. He was a preacher so I was not believed. Even though at 8 yrs old I drew an exact replica of a vasectomy scar for the judge. He ruled that I was corersed. I was then sent back into that home for more abuse. (I might add that my father beat me for trying to "ruin" his life) He continued to be a minister and I was just the "liar".

Also, I might add...there are many places in my memory that are gone. I remember very little before age 12. My "shrink" tells me that my mind has blocked out the abuse of those years. That may be true...but I DO remember the trial and the judges chamber and the beatings and his robbing me of my virginity when I was 12.

I hate it when people just assume the victom is lieing just because the voilater is an "upstanding" citizen.

[Jason]

While I don't know if she is telling the truth or not, I will say that I WAS abused by my father and I DO remember it. He was a preacher so I was not believed. Even though at 8 yrs old I drew an exact replica of a vasectomy scar for the judge. He ruled that I was corersed. I was then sent back into that home for more abuse. (I might add that my father beat me for trying to "ruin" his life) He continued to be a minister and I was just the "liar".

Also, I might add...there are many places in my memory that are gone. I remember very little before age 12. My "shrink" tells me that my mind has blocked out the abuse of those years. That may be true...but I DO remember the trial and the judges chamber and the beatings and his robbing me of my virginity when I was 12.

I hate it when people just assume the victom is lieing just because the voilater is an "upstanding" citizen.

I'm very sorry to hear that. Thank you for sharing.

[Guest Yediyd]

At 43 yrs of age I'm just now getting to the point in my life where I can believe that I was indeed, innocent.

I will also add that I was not alone in the abuse and my mother and siblings acknowledge the truth.

So, yes...this woman does sound untruthful...but I can't help remembering how it felt to not be believed.

BTW...I have been diagnosed with fibromyalsia...I believe there is a tie.

[prisonchaplain]

If it's any consolation, baring a radical repentence, deep contrition, and brutal honesty, the "reward" such an abuser will receive is far more severe, since he claimed to be a teacher of God. To whom much is given much is required, and Jesus' warning about those who would harm children, was not for nothing.

Jesus the big brother that believes those children (regardless of age) whom the world discounted, not wanting to believe the horror that humanity is capable of.

[vinny15]

Ugh I hate this world sometimes.

[Guest Yediyd]

Ugh I hate this world sometimes.

We're just passing through, Vinny!!!

[rosie321]

If it's any consolation, baring a radical repentence, deep contrition, and brutal honesty, the "reward" such an abuser will receive is far more severe, since he claimed to be a teacher of God. To whom much is given much is required, and Jesus' warning about those who would harm children, was not for nothing.

Jesus the big brother that believes those children (regardless of age) whom the world discounted, not wanting to believe the horror that humanity is capable of

Stuff like that doesn't even bring much comfort . Because once you can get yourself into a state of mind to love and forgive your heart just breaks at what a waste of such lost potential and beauty just happened

Maybe it could help in the initial stages of letting go of the anger and letting God step in. But then when that dust settles I can't help but hope the person will change as much as possible before its too late and not have to endure the full consequences of their sin.

<div class='quotemain'>

Ugh I hate this world sometimes.

We're just passing through, Vinny!!!

Can't we all pass a little faster?

It breaks the heart to read continually repeated stories such as yours Yediyd. Such evil

[belisimo35]

Its sad when little children are hurt and abused, yes I just passing to.........

[Guest Emma Hale Smith]

I read Beck's book when it first came out and of course on the LDS message boards it was a huge conttroversy.

I have no idea if the sexual abuse occurred or not. But i can say, having been raped as a child, that her meetting with her father in the hotel rings very true to me. She was criticized for having her friend hide in the closet (is that right?)

That is exactly what I would do under the circumstances.

First, unless you've be sexually abused, you simply cannot comprehend the fear and power this person still has over you, even though you're both adults--even though he's now an old man. Inside you are still the terrified child, and he is still the terrifying monster. So I can see her asking her friend to be there just so she would't be alone with him while she confronted him.

I have heard she had been alone with him a number of times prior to the hotel visit, and people have said this dismisses her claims of her fear of him at the hotel. To me the difference is she was planning on confronting him about something that had terrified her as a child. Therefore, she hid her friend so she would have her for support (if its true).

The second reason is I would want a witness to everything he said to me while he was unaware anyone else was listening to him.

Anyone who's heard sexual abuse stories know how common it is for the perpetrator to tell the child "Don't tell anyone about this or I will kill (whomever). Many children believe this, and don't tell anyone.

So to Beck, thinking perhaps her father would confess, she wanted another pair of ears to verify that her father had, indeed, sexually abused her. But again, she also wanted support against the fear.

However, he did not confess, and the way she writes about it, he denied it, rambled about a bit, and she forgave him. (That's the Reader's Digest version.)

Again, this scenario really rings true for me.

Another issue that needs to be cleared up is that she does not claim to have remembered what happened to her via "recovered memories." She said she was at BYU at a seminar, or something similar to that, where the subject was sexual abuse. Her body reacted to the subject matter, and she was suddenly overwhelmed with the memories of her father ritually abusing her.

If I remember correctly, the "Recovered Memories" came when she consulted a therapist who happened to have jumped on the "recovered memories" bandwagon, and was incompetent. Beck finally realized they were not credible, and if she is telling the truth, she had her own, real memories.

Having said all that, I think there some real problems with the book. They've all been mentioned above, such as her claiming BYU didn't have books about Sonja Johnson when I believe it's been proved it did.

I don't think it odd she and her husband would marry, given the culture they grew up in. I also don't fee it odd that they would eventually come to terms with their homosexuality and decide to live in line with that. But I do agree it was odd to leave that out of the book, given that it was so forthcoming about so many other intimate and personal issues.

There are a number of things that just didn't make sense, and felt as if they were meant to boost her book rather than stick to the facts.

Therefore, I cannot recommend the book as truthful. I wish we knew. But she is a professional and knows better than to write one true story and then put in another one that is false just to make your book sell better.

And the Great White Buffalo forgive me if I am wrong.

Regards,

Emma

[the Ogre]

...the Great White Buffalo forgive me if I am wrong...

Emma,

Boyd Peterson (is he the Great White Buffalo you are referring to, he does have a whitish beard), Beck's brother-in-law (he married Zina, her sister), is a personal friend of mine. He and Zina are great people who have suffered in many ways after "Leaving the Saints" came out. Boyd is also the guy who wrote Hugh Nibley: A Consecrated Life (Kofford Books, 2002). I can not comment on the accuracy of the statements Beck makes. I also think child molestation is a horrible thing to suffer through, but the family thinks she is misguided.

I hope it did not happen, but this I will say: child molestation happens way to often in the church and in Utah and in society in general. It is a crime that needs to be punished in stronger ways then it is now.

I don't know if you are wrong nor am I concerned, it just seems Beck is more interested in hurting her family then she is about exposing a crime or expunging it from society (I only gave her book a light reading at Sam Wellers and did not buy it, so I am not one to offer authoritive reviews of her book).

Personally, I am not a fan of Nibley's or apologetics in general, I do not think there is much value in their work for LDS society or theology. I do know Boyd and Zina and I think the world of them. I hope Beck's allegations are false, but the crime happens way too often and that is what really deserves more attention instead of being swept under the rug. That (child molestation and the shroud covering it in Utah) is what is worth combatting.

Aaron the Ogre

[Doctor Steuss]

The review from FAIR that Dale mentioned is a good resource (BTW, don’t know if you’re my same RLDS/CoC brother from Mormonapologetics… if you are, nice running into you here). I noticed that there have been quite a few reviews linked, and I thought I might as well pile a few more on. By far, one of the most thorough would be that of Nibley’s son-in-law:

Peterson Review

Also, here is the family’s response:

Nibley Family Responds

And here is Kent Jackson’s review (a shorter read than that of Peterson):

Jackson's Review

And here is Greg’s review (frequent readers of FARMS review might remember Greg for his review of Bagley’s book):

Taggart Review

In my opinion, Martha is indeed a victim. But she is a victim of poor pseudo-psychology. My heart goes out to her and her family and I hope that one day they are able to find peace.

[pushka]

I read this book a few months ago. Obviously I cannot say whether or not the abuse really happened, although I tend to believe that it must have done so in some way.

I found it an interesting read, and not too Anti-LDS.