Perspective on the "occult" and the Scriptures


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As some of us come to a full knowledge of church history and things like "seer stones" and such we often get very concerned. With that in mind I would like us to have a discussion of things in the Bible, BoM, etc that are unusual or "occult" like.

Here are the definitions of occult from dictionary.com:

–adjective 1. of or pertaining to magic, astrology, or any system claiming use or knowledge of secret or supernatural powers or agencies.

2. beyond the range of ordinary knowledge or understanding; mysterious.

3. secret; disclosed or communicated only to the initiated.

4. hidden from view.

5. (in early science) a. not apparent on mere inspection but discoverable by experimentation.

b. of a nature not understood, as physical qualities.

c. dealing with such qualities; experimental: occult science.

6. Medicine/Medical. present in amounts too small to be visible: a chemical test to detect occult blood in the stool.

–noun 7. the supernatural or supernatural agencies and affairs considered as a whole (usually prec. by the).

8. occult studies or sciences (usually prec. by the).

–verb (used with object) 9. to block or shut off (an object) from view; hide.

10. Astronomy. to hide (a celestial body) by occultation.

–verb (used without object) 11. to become hidden or shut off from view.

Now, after reading the definitions of occult it seems like we usually misuse the word. I feel like most people use the word occult to say things of the devil or witchcraft/priestcraft. Maybe that's just me, though.

Now here are some things that are portrayed in the scriptures as being good, but could clearly be called "occult" by most-at least by today's standards. You can find some helpful info over at religioustolerance.com about occultism in the Bible.

*Moses turning the ? river to blood

*Moses turning the staff into a serpant

*Moses getting water from the rock w/staff

*Moses parting the Red Sea

*Putting blood on the doorway for Passover

*People healed by looking at the serpant on the staff

*Animal sacrifice

*Building alters for worship purposes

*The guy who was told to wash in the pool 7 times to be healed

*Urim and Thummim

*Casting lots and dice throwing

*Jesus turning water into wine

*Jesus walking on water

*Jesus healing a blind man with spit/mud on eyes

*Samson believed he had strength from not cutting his hair

*Several instances of cursing (though it's up to the reader to decide if these are bad or not)

I found this one especially interesting:

Daniel, the prophet, was employed for many years in Babylon as the chief occultist to the king. He was supervisor "of the magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans and soothsayers". See Daniel 5:11

Then, of course, we have the BoM

*Liahona

*Brother of Jared and the rocks

*Urim and Thummim

Regardless of whether these stories are literal or more symbolic they would probably be considered suspect by most people if they happened today. It does appear to me that God often allows us to use objects or unusual means to bring about miracles, revelation or his words.

For me the bigger question becomes, what is the difference? How can we tell the difference between the "bad" occult and the "good" occult?

Edited by TruthSeekerToo
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I think that will be one of the next books I read. I'm currently into one book and almost done with it. I need to decide which of the approx. million books on my list will be the next one.

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It is a great book, Rough Stone Rolling. I have two copies (Mom gave me one for Christmas a few years ago after I had already read my own copy). It can be found at any major bookstore, like Barnes and Noble. And of course there is Amazon.com. If anyone lives in Southern California, I will be happy to lend my copy (copies).

THe concept of "folk magick" is covered pretty extensively and I think it was one aspect that helped prepare Joseph to translate the Book of Mormon. Oh, and the term U&T, although later attributed to the interpreters used to translate the Book of Mormon, the book itself, and the Angel Moroni only refer to them as interpreters.

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My two cents: Most of the human race has spent most of their earthly existence, from Adam & Eve until somewhere in the 1800's, blissfully unconcerned about the occult. The word does not appear in any scriptures (neither does 'cult' for that matter). Forbidden practices and rituals and items have always attracted interest, but as far as I can tell, it never reached the frenzied pitch and attracted so many passionate zealots until the last few hundred years.

It really took off when defrocked Catholic priest Alphonse Louis Constant changed his name to Eliphas Levi Zahed and started publishing books on the subject in 1854. Around that time, the pentagram, which had up until then enjoyed sacred status as a symbol of Jesus Christ, got a cheap makeover with a goat's head, and pop culture changed it's mind. It's found place in Christianity amongst people who desire to be able to tell folks they're going to hell, and want some sort of formula they can apply to reject people.

So, when I look in the mirror at myself, here's what I say to myself about the issue. "LM, if ya wanna follow a recent trend in humanity and get all worked up into a lather about occultish stuff, be my guest. But it seems like your time might be better spent in focusing on eternal truths like the Gospel."

My two cents.

LM

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I find it funny that so many people look down on the "occult" but have no problem accepting supernatural events as long as they are a part of their own religion. Anything supernatural outside of their religious beliefs is obviously ridiculous though :rolleyes:

You make an excellent point. A critic of religion thinks it's funny that people in one religion will laugh at other religions unbelievable beliefs, yet they also have unbelievable beliefs, like a virgin becoming pregnant, Jesus coming back to life, and most any other Bible story.

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Moroni 7 came to mind when reading this thread.

Moroni 7:

5 For I remember the word of God which saith by their works ye shall know them; for if their works be good, then they are good also.

6 For behold, God hath said a man being evil cannot do that which is good; for if he offereth a gift, or prayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real intent it profiteth him nothing.

7 For behold, it is not counted unto him for righteousness.

8 For behold, if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God.

9 And likewise also is it counted evil unto a man, if he shall pray and not with real intent of heart; yea, and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such.

10 Wherefore, a man being evil cannot do that which is good; neither will he give a good gift.

11 For behold, a bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he follow Christ he cannot be a servant of the devil.

12 Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.

13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.

14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.

It seems it all depends for what purpose they are used, and the intent of the user.

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Here are the definitions of occult from dictionary.com...

Now, after reading the definitions of occult it seems like we usually misuse the word. I feel like most people use the word occult to say things of the devil or witchcraft/priestcraft. Maybe that's just me, though.

I agree with you; the modern connotation is highly negative. The same thing has happened to it's root word (at least, I think it's the root word... I suck at etymology) "cult": it's gained a highly perjorative connotation in modern usage and is usually thrown around as an insult. The interesting thing about "cult" is that most definitions I see given by someone using it as a negative all fit the early Christian Church perfectly.
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It seems it all depends for what purpose they are used, and the intent of the user.

Wonder about seer stones in Las Vegas? Once heard a guy say it "it takes real stones to bet that much".

Ill gotten gain would seem to be an abuse of such devices.

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MAGICK IN THE BIBLE: © By Gaia

It's true that in some places, the Bible does have some negative statements about witchcraft (and btw, at least one of those was MIStranslated.

In Exodus 22:19, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live," the word translated as "witch" , ("Pharmacopaea") actually meant "poisoner", but King James, who commissioned the King James Bible, was a rabid witch hater and insisted that his translators give the word that mistranslation -- remember, they were *hired* by him, and he could exercise any authority over them he wished, since he was King)

However, the Bible has "neutral or positive references to a wide range of magical and divinatory practices."

(Joanne Kuemmerlin-McLean, "Magic: Old Testament," in David Freedman, ed., _The Anchor Bible Dictionary_, 6 vols, 4:469; also JOshua Trachtenberg, "Jewish Magic and Superstition: A Study in folk Religion" 19-20.)

Before the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, Jewish tradition held that King Solomon's wisdom included his vast knowledge of magic and medicine.

THE MAGICK POWER OF THE NAME (HaShem):

Innumerable people have believed and still do beleive in the magickal power of the Name -- that the true name of anything has power. It was on this basis that YHWH, (one of the sacred Names of God), known as the Tetragrammaton, (from which "Yahweh" and later "Jehovah" developed) was never spoken aloud by Jews; it was always replaced by the word, "Adonai" ("Lord") or "Elohim" ("leaders," "judges" or "Gods" -- PLURAL) throughout the Old Testament.

Because God's name was unutterable among Hebrews, they invested it with enomous power. "Magic by means of the use of the Holy Name was actually sanctioned, and the results that were sought by it differed little if at all from the objects of heathen magic."

(Alafred Guillaume "Prophecy and Divination Among The Hebrews and Other Semites" 269; Hyrum P Jones, "Magic and the Old Testament," MS thesis, BYU 1933, 42; Gershom Sholem, "Kabbalah," in Roth, _Encyclopaedia Judaica_ 10:494, 503)

Jewish and Christian lore contains many references to occult incantations, amulets, charms, spells, exoercisms, etc.

- PATRIARCH JACOB AND HIS MAGICK RODS:

In Genesis 30:37-39 The Bible indicates that the patriarch Jacob (grandson of Abraham, aka "Israel", father of the twelve sons and therefore twelve tribes of Israel) was interested in names of power and in magic rods.

Jacob used magick rods to cause [his father-in-law] Laban's flocks to produce spotted offspring after merely looking at the rods. The scriptures do not indicate whether Jacob received divine instruction or authorization to use this method of FOLK MAGIC, which was widespread throughout the ancient Middle East as one way to produce desired offspring.

(John McClintock and James Strong, ed., _Cyclopaedia of biblical Theology and Ecclesiastical Literature_ 12 vols, 2:836)

- JOSEPH's DIVINING CUP:

While the Old Testament condemns the use of divination by Pagans, According to Genesis 44:2,5 Joseph (son of Jacob, whose prophetic interpretation of Pharoah's dreams saved Egypt and its allies from famine and who therefore became the highest Egyptian authority under Pharoah) had a special silver cup in Egypt with which "he divineth."

"Divination by cups has been from time immemorial prevalent among the Asiatics." (Adam Clarke, _The Holy bible...With a Commentary and Critical Notes... 6 vols, footnote printed below Gen 44:15; often called "Clarke's Commentary")

"Instances of the use of cups of water and variants, can be found in magical traditions from all over the world...." (Richard Cavendish, ed _Man, Myth & Magic: An Illustrated Encyclopedia of the Supernatural_, 24 vols, 18:2506)

Thus, without any biblical evidence of divine instruction or reproof, Joseph resorted to a tool of magic divination (hydromancy) that was in regular use among surrounding Pagans.

- CASTING LOTS:

The God of Israel commanded his people to cast lots (Leviticus 16:8- 10; , and the Hebrews chose priests and other temple workers (1 Chron. 24:5, 25:8, 26:13), (and much later (Acts 2:24-26) the apostles of Jesus chose new apostles) -- by casting lots.

*Not* a vote by ballot, the biblical casting of lots was outwardly identical to sortilege/ divination practiced throughout the ancient world by Pagans who sought to know the will of their various gods."

(M'Clintock and Strong, _Cyclopaedia of Biblical Theology_, 5:519- 20; Jones, _Magic and the Old Testament" 545; Jeffers, _Magic and Diviniation in Ancient Palestine and Syria_, 96-98)

OTHER EXAMPLES:

"Judaising" Magic:

The _Encyclopaedia Judaica_ observed: "While repudiating the power of sorcery, biblical religion at times utilizes means and methods which were borrowed from magical practice --" but as Jewish scholar Jacob Neusner has noted: "Judaizing magic made it no less magical."

(Jacob Neusner, "The Wonder Working Lawyers of Talmudic Babylonia: The theory and practice of Judaism in its Formative Age")

Magical Healing:

Bible commentators have also generally acknowledged the magic context of instances where objects had power to heal. In Numbers 21:9 Moses constructs a brass serpent, and any Israelite bitten by deadly serpents was healed by looking upon this image. The _Abingdon Bible Commentary_ noted that this "is but one illustration of a practice well known outside the Bible as well as within it, namely, making an image of a pest or affliction and presenting the image to the deity who, in turn, would banish the pest."

(Frederick Carl Eiselen, Ediwin Lewis, and DAvid Downey, ed. _The Abingdon bible Commentary_308-309; also Joseph Dan, "Magic," in Roth, _Encyclopaedia Judaica_ 11:705)

In 2 Kings 13:21, a corpse revived to mortal life when it came into contact with the bones of the prophet Elisha. The _Interpreter's Bible_ commented that such belief was "common among primitive people....." (Buttrick, _Interpreter's Bible_ 3:258)

- St. Paul's Magic Handkerchiefs:

In one of the New Testament's best examples of magic healing, St Paul sent specially blessed handkerchiefs among the people to heal (Acts 19:12).

JESUS THE MAGICKIAN: (the title of a book, btw)

Jesus himself was accused of being a magician by Celsus and Jewish rabbis. Porphyry, another Pagan writer, dismissed Jesus as "not even an extraordinary magician," and called the apostle Peter "a dabbler in the black arts."

This was so well-known that medieval Passion plays emphasized acusations against "Christ the Sorcerer"."

(R H NIcholson, "The Trial of Christ the Sorcerer in the York Cycle," _Journal of Medieval and Renaissance Studies_ 16:125-69)

"The belief, accusation or tradition that Jesus was a magician and that he passed magical power to his apostles and to the church as a whole, is thus found in Judaism, Gnosticism, Christian orthodoxy and heterodoxy, Paganism, Islam and Mandeanism."

(Hohn Hull, _Hellenistic Magic and the Synoptic Tradition_ 4)

In many of the miracles of Jesus, the techniques closely parallelled magic practices of the ancient world. For example, Jesus used spittle to heal (John 9:6) and used Aramaic words in an otherwise Greek text of healing words ( Mark 5:41). Pagan magicians used spittle to heal the blind, put their fingers in the ears to heal the deaf, employed the same series of seperate acts involved in some of the more detailed Gospel healings, and used foriegn words as part of magic spells and incantations.

(David Freidrich Strauss, "Thje Life of Jesus, Critically Examined," 2 vols, 2:299, 305)

Egyptologist Robert K Ritner has observed that Egyptian "saliva magic" was "given new justification by the miracles of Jesus."

(Robert Ritner, "The Mechanics of Ancient Egyptian Magic Practice" 89, 91)

Religious historian Stephen Benko observed that the accusation of magic against early Christians was *not* mere polemical distortion. Non-Christians saw no difference between Christian glossolalia (speaking in tongues) and the gibberish of lower-class magicians and

exorcists....

(Stephen Benko, _Pagan Rome and the Early Christians_ 118, 125, 132; also E R Dodds, _Pagan and Christian in an Age of Anxiety: Some Aspects of Religious Experience From Marcus Aurelius to Constantine 125-26)

Christians used "objects, rites, words and formulas charged with divine potency to force demons to yield," all in accordance with well-known, contemporary rules of magic. Christians may have claimed this was not magic, but it certainly *looked* like magic to others, and bore no real contrast to other forms of magick.

Conspiracy of Silence?

Historian David E Aune says that many authors "most of whom consider themselves biblical theologians, write as if they were involved in a conspiracy to ignore or minimize the role of magic in the New Testament and early Christian literature.....

It does not seem appropriate to regard Jesus as a magician, yet Jesus DID make use of magical tecnniques which must be regarded as magical."

(David A Aune, "Magic in Early Christianity" 1508, 1539, 1538; also E P Sanders, "Jesus and Judaism 169-173; see also _Jesus the Magician_)

"Christian magic is a tradition that employs deified Christian figures (Mary, the apostles, saints, and important figures) to allow a personal relationship with the Divine in the Roman Catholic Church and older Christian traditions. Additionally, it incorporates a number of other religionsÕ themes, gods, and traditions into its own system. It may also utilize spells, incantations, amulets, rituals, and other occult practices to call upon divine forces for intervention in the affairs of the world. Christian magic has arguably been around as long as Christianity itself, and continues to be a part of some belief systems in the modern world."

The History of the Catholic Church and the Origins of Christian Mysticism:

GIFTS OF THE SPIRIT:

Even what are scripturally referred to as the "Gifts of the Spirit":

[Mark 16:17-18 -- "17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them: they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

and 1 Corinthians 12-14 "For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues...." ] --

-- in other circles (pun intended) these are referred to as "Psychic Gifts".

The objection of some conservative Christians to the practice of magick seems to be:

- "If WE do it, it's holy;

If YOU do it, it's evil" !

By contrast, God judges not according to appearances, but the INTENT of the HEART -- As the Bible itself (1 Samuel 16:7) says:

"For man looketh on the outer appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart."

There are many who practice magick with the intent to heal, help and bless the lives of others; and there are some few Christians who offer perfectly well-constructed prayers (complete with, "In Jesus' name"!) for nobody but themselves. Which would Jesus (most likely) consider most "righteous"???

Blessings ~

~ Gaia

(She's an acquaintance of mine in Utah county)

HiJolly

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This sounds like a debate between true miracles and impressive parlor tricks.

There is no doubt that parts of our history look rather magical. There is also no doubt in my mind that some events in the history of this world look that "magic" because we don't see enough of the event to truly comprehend.

I think the key to any miraculous or magical event or tool is the source of the power and the purpose for the demonstrations of such a wonder.

And IMO, there are three sources with one universal purpose: God and his work, humans and their ideas and agendas, and Satan and his objectives. It seems that all three groups can and do produce something "amazing" all for the purpose of creating converts.

As I look thru history, it seems to me that the worlds religions span a tremendous spectrum and many, if not all, contain miraculous components. The key is, in my mind, not necessarily in the miracle itself. If God wants to light a rock with his finger, turn a river to blood, or tell a guy to look into a hat to see a vision....well, it seems to me he can accomplish it if he so desires. The sky is the limit as it were. It is also true (and rather obvious if you don't mind) that Lucifer/Satan has some power too. He, as some of us believe, wants to have and do and be all that is and has and does. And so he tries to swing a heavy bat with counterfeits. Heck, he can even impersonate an angel. So, I suppose he has an endless list that would certainly wow an audience and even make some stop and follow the sparklie.

Miracles are part of the religious deal. We are told that they will follow the faithful. I suppose the trick is understanding the source and being open to the possibilities of what God can do but also discerning accurately to detect fools gold from the good stuff. Even things that are literally miraculous can and are false. The miraculous nature of something isn't an indicator of truth or of eternal power.

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True Magik Stuff:

The great excape artist of the early 20th Century Harry Houdini, boasted that there wasn't a set of restraints he couldn't get out of and he used his lock picking skills to escape.

Every anniversary of his death, his still ardent admirers leave a plate of Lox and Bagels at his memorial site in Macpelah Cemetery. Every morning when they return, they find that he has picked the Lox but left the bagel.

:)

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  • 2 weeks later...

For me the bigger question becomes, what is the difference? How can we tell the difference between the "bad" occult and the "good" occult?

My mian thoughts on knowing the difference would be along the lines of the Gift of Decerning of Spirits or the Light of Christ.

But i thing there is jsut a stigma on the word occult. Its meaning doesn't have to be negative or positive, its jsut a way of describing an act. Whats good or bad is how the act is used.

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