Difference between Telestial and Terrestrial


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I have had an up and down life when it comes to religion. I was raised LDS and believed in it up until I was about 18. I began to question what was right, if anything. I began doing drugs and began denying that there was a God. Last year I was diagnosed with cancer and began studying the scriptures again. I have repented of all oth bad things I have done on earth. So my question is do I still qualify for anything above the Telstial Kingdom?

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The below is from this resource published by the church: LDS.org - Family Table of Contents - True to the Faith

“Kingdoms of Glory,” True to the Faith, (2004),92–95

Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, all people will be resurrected (see Alma 11:42–45). After we are resurrected, we will stand before the Lord to be judged (see Revelation 20:12; 3 Nephi 27:14). Each of us will be assigned to an eternal dwelling place in a specific kingdom of glory. The Lord taught this principle when He said, “In my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2).

There are three kingdoms of glory: the celestial kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom, and the telestial kingdom. The glory you inherit will depend on the depth of your conversion, expressed by your obedience to the Lord’s commandments. It will depend on the manner in which you have “received the testimony of Jesus” (D&C 76:51; see also 76:74, 79, 101).

Celestial Kingdom

The celestial kingdom is the highest of the three kingdoms of glory. Those in this kingdom will dwell forever in the presence of God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ. This should be your goal: to inherit celestial glory and to help others receive that great blessing as well. Such a goal is not achieved in one attempt; it is the result of a lifetime of righteousness and constancy of purpose.

The celestial kingdom is the place prepared for those who have “received the testimony of Jesus” and been “made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood” (D&C 76:51, 69). To inherit this gift, we must receive the ordinances of salvation, keep the commandments, and repent of our sins. For a detailed explanation of those who will inherit celestial glory, see Doctrine and Covenants 76:50–70, 92–96.

In January 1836 the Prophet Joseph Smith received a revelation that expanded his understanding of the requirements to inherit celestial glory. The heavens were opened to him, and he saw the celestial kingdom. He marveled when he saw his older brother Alvin there, even though Alvin had died before receiving the ordinance of baptism. (See D&C 137:1–6.) Then the voice of the Lord came to the Prophet Joseph:

“All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

“Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

“For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts” (D&C 137:7–9).

Commenting on this revelation, the Prophet Joseph said, “I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven” (D&C 137:10).

From another revelation to the Prophet Joseph, we learn that there are three degrees within the celestial kingdom. To be exalted in the highest degree and continue eternally in family relationships, we must enter into “the new and everlasting covenant of marriage” and be true to that covenant. In other words, temple marriage is a requirement for obtaining the highest degree of celestial glory. (See D&C 131:1–4.) All who are worthy to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage will have that opportunity, whether in this life or the next.

Terrestrial Kingdom

Those who inherit terrestrial glory will “receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father. Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun” (D&C 76:77–78). Generally speaking, individuals in the terrestrial kingdom will be honorable people “who were blinded by the craftiness of men” (76:75). This group will include members of the Church who were “not valiant in the testimony of Jesus” (D&C 76:79). It will also include those who rejected the opportunity to receive the gospel in mortality but who later received it in the postmortal spirit world (see D&C 76:73–74). To learn more about those who will inherit terrestrial glory, see Doctrine and Covenants 76:71–80, 91, 97.

Telestial Kingdom

Telestial glory will be reserved for individuals who “received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus” (D&C 76:82). These individuals will receive their glory after being redeemed from spirit prison, which is sometimes called hell (see D&C 76:84, 106). A detailed explanation of those who will inherit telestial glory is found in Doctrine and Covenants 76:81–90, 98–106, 109–112.

Perdition

Some people will not be worthy to dwell in any kingdom of glory. They will be called “the sons of perdition” and will have to “abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory” (D&C 76:32; 88:24). This will be the state of “those who know [God’s] power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy [God’s] power” (D&C 76:31; see also D&C 76:30, 32–49).

Additional references: 1 Corinthians 15:40–42, including footnote 40a;D&C 88:20–39; 130:18–19

Hope that helps. :)

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It is better to repent by decision than to be compelled, but repentance is repentance.

It is impossible for us to judge whether or not you are sincere. If you are, I have no doubt the atonement can and will be applied to you.

Thank you for posting this. It has caused me to think of my standing.

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God is the only one who can answer that question. No one here in this forum is qualified to judge you.

The most basic requirements as I see them are as follows:

Outer Darkness - You must KNOW the Savior (a knowledge about him well beyond faith alone) and then reject him. There are very few of these people...

Telestial - You have to willfully break the commandments and have no remorse for doing so, basically you must be wicked.

Terrestrial - You must strive to follow the 10 commandments because you know and feel that it is the right thing to do.

Celestial bottom - You must follow the commandments and the other teachings of Jesus Christ and be baptized.

Celestial middle - You must be baptized and be ordained with the Melchizedek priesthood (if your male) and strive to magnify your priesthood.

Celestial top - You have to enter into the New and Everlasting Covenant and strive to comply with all the requirements of that covenant.

Also important to realize is that no one will be consigned to a kingdom till after the final judgement that is after the millennium. And that people can continue to progress even after Death (albeit repentance is much more difficult in the next life compared to this one).

After this life there will be a preliminary judgement that will place people into one of two locations, Spirit Prison or Paradise. I'm not exactly sure what is the delineation between the two, but I think that if you qualify for the Terrestrial Kingdom or above that you go to Paradise. If you only qualify for the Telestial Kingdom you are consigned to go to Spirit Prison. And even if person ends up in Spirit Prison, he or she can make amends and accept the gospel and moved from Spirit Prison into Paradise.

So to answer your question, I would ask. Are you wicked?

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"If a man have a hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray." - Matthew 18:12-13

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Jesus does more than just atones for our sin. He washes it away! If any be in Jesus, he is a new creation where old things have passed away. Jesus is more than my elder brother; He is my Creator. I believe that He made all things seen and unseen that includes all angels and all spiritual beings. They were made by Him and for His pleasure. Jesus is the Word, which always existed with God because He was and is God and He will come to judge the living and the dead. Whoever is not found in the book of life, will be cast away into a Christless eternity.

There will be only two groups of people going to one of two places. The sheep will be on His one side and the goats on the other. The sheep will enter into the joy of the Lord and the goats will be cast into outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. There is nothing for us to be ambitious about. God chooses who will sit on His right or left regardless of what we do on earth. God gives to every man a certain measure of faith for them to live up to. God is looking for faithful men not successful men. He said well done thou good and faithful servant not successful servant..

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Are you sealed to your parents?

“Let the father and mother, who are members of this Church and Kingdom, take a righteous course, and strive with all their might never to do a wrong, but to do good all their lives; if they have one child or one hundred children, if they conduct themselves towards them as they should, binding them to the Lord by their faith and prayers, I care not where those children go, they are bound up to their parents by an everlasting tie, and no power of earth or hell can separate them from their parents in eternity; they will return again to the fountain from whence they sprang” (quoted in Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols. [1954–56], 2:90–91).

“If you succeed in passing through these trials and afflictions and receive a resurrection, you will, by the power of the Priesthood, work and labor, as the Son of God has, until you get all your sons and daughters in the path of exaltation and glory. This is just as sure as that the sun rose this morning over yonder mountains. Therefore, mourn not because all your sons and daughters do not follow in the path that you have marked out to them, or give heed to your counsels. Inasmuch as we succeed in securing eternal glory, and stand as saviors, and as kings and priests to our God, we will save our posterity” (in Collected Discourses, comp. Brian H. Stuy, 5 vols. [1987–92], 3:364).

“We cannot overemphasize the value of temple marriage, the binding ties of the sealing ordinance, and the standards of worthiness required of them. When parents keep the covenants they have made at the altar of the temple, their children will be forever bound to them” (“Our Moral Environment,” Ensign, May 1992, 68).Boyd K. Packer

“The Prophet Joseph Smith declared—and he never taught a more comforting doctrine—that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father’s heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God” (Orson F. Whitney, in Conference Report, Apr. 1929, 110).

If the celestial is the only place families can be together, you are sealed to your parents, and your parents do what they are supposed to, then it seems you will be be there as well. It might be harder.

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So my question is do I still qualify for anything above the Telstial Kingdom?

I assume you have read through Section 76 of the D&C so I won’t go into that.

The simple answer is, yes!

The Telestial Kingdom are for those that reject Christ and his Atonement. Meaning they had a chance to repent and never took it (in this life or in the next).

This is for the really bad people.

The Terestial, is for those that accepted Christ, but pretty much do it in the next life. Meaning they knew they should have followed Christ during there mortal life, but didn’t (mostly because of the world). So they accept it in the next life!

Last is the Celestial Kingdom. This is for those that keep the commandments during mortal life (and I assume you are still living out your mortal life). They do all that is required to be part of the Celestial Kingdom. Sounds like your on your way here.

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aj4u, there is so much in your post, I feel it would be difficult to discuss it all.

There will be only two groups of people going to one of two places. The sheep will be on His one side and the goats on the other. The sheep will enter into the joy of the Lord and the goats will be cast into outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

That is the simple, obvious understanding to walk away from those scriptures with. However, it is a parable meant to teach of one truth, that of the judgement. All who are found on His right hand will be given a kingdom of glory. It does not say they will inherit everlasting life, or what we call the Celestial Kingdom.

Matt 25:

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

You must mesh this scripture with this one:

John 14:

2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

I think if there was only 1 place in heaven, with 1 reward of glory, then this scripture would be worded very different.

Also, from this scipture we get the feel that, even though these kingdoms were prepared from the foundations of the earth, what we do on earth can determine, at least in part, where end up going. This very parable is teaching that those who fed the hungry, clothed the naked, and visited the sick are the ones who will be on the right hand. The ONLY thing that separates these from the ones on His left hand are that they did NOT do these things.

They were prepared because God knew there would be many different kind of people. But, as to who goes where, Christ said He would go to prepare a place for those who follow Him.

He said well done thou good and faithful servant not successful servant..

You forget the parable of the talents. One cannot be good and faithful in God's eyes unless they are born again, and put off the natural man, who is an enemy to God. They must be successful, with Christ's help, in overcoming this world. We cannot be Sunday Christians and be "good and faithful."

I suggest you open your heart when you read your scriptures in your home and let the Spirit guide your learning. Listening to people who are paid to give a message can be dangerous, because they will paint an easy picture for you because it's what we want to hear, so they can remain in your employ. What you need is someone who will love you enough to speak truth to you. Listen to what the Spirit tells you is true, He loves you and will not lie... and He is not deceived so He will manifest the truth to you.

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I have had an up and down life when it comes to religion. I was raised LDS and believed in it up until I was about 18. I began to question what was right, if anything. I began doing drugs and began denying that there was a God. Last year I was diagnosed with cancer and began studying the scriptures again. I have repented of all oth bad things I have done on earth. So my question is do I still qualify for anything above the Telstial Kingdom?

Jesus' love for us is greater than any whole we can fall into. We must know Him as our personal savior. He is the one who chooses the place he has prepared for those who love Him. Those that will be the greatest in Heaven are those who serve on earth. The greatest among you will be your servant! Jesus shed His blood for our salvation. He was always perfect and rich. We were never perfect or rich toward God, but Jesus died so we could be alive unto God. He became poor so we could be rich. There is no hole we can fall into that is deeper than His love. If we delight ourselves in the Lord, He will give us the desires of our hearts.
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aj4u, there is so much in your post, I feel it would be difficult to discuss it all.

That is the simple, obvious understanding to walk away from those scriptures with. However, it is a parable meant to teach of one truth, that of the judgement. All who are found on His right hand will be given a kingdom of glory. It does not say they will inherit everlasting life, or what we call the Celestial Kingdom.

Matt 25:

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

You must mesh this scripture with this one:

John 14:

2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

I think if there was only 1 place in heaven, with 1 reward of glory, then this scripture would be worded very different.

Also, from this scipture we get the feel that, even though these kingdoms were prepared from the foundations of the earth, what we do on earth can determine, at least in part, where end up going. This very parable is teaching that those who fed the hungry, clothed the naked, and visited the sick are the ones who will be on the right hand. The ONLY thing that separates these from the ones on His left hand are that they did NOT do these things.

They were prepared because God knew there would be many different kind of people. But, as to who goes where, Christ said He would go to prepare a place for those who follow Him.

You forget the parable of the talents. One cannot be good and faithful in God's eyes unless they are born again, and put off the natural man, who is an enemy to God. They must be successful, with Christ's help, in overcoming this world. We cannot be Sunday Christians and be "good and faithful."

I suggest you open your heart when you read your scriptures in your home and let the Spirit guide your learning. Listening to people who are paid to give a message can be dangerous, because they will paint an easy picture for you because it's what we want to hear, so they can remain in your employ. What you need is someone who will love you enough to speak truth to you. Listen to what the Spirit tells you is true, He loves you and will not lie... and He is not deceived so He will manifest the truth to you.

I didn't forget the talents. What about those who worked all different times of the day and were all were paid a penny? Some thought they should have received more for working longer but they all got exactly the same amount. We must be born again. I agree that apart from Christ, we can do nothing. He was always perfect, but we have always been sinners, but by His grace through our faith in Him we are saved, and He will hold back no good thing from us. I also agree that "One cannot be good and faithful in God's eyes unless they are born again, and put off the natural man, who is an enemy to God. They must be... (victorious over sin), with Christ's help, in overcoming this world. We cannot be Sunday Christians and be "good and faithful." I have said nothing to deny this is true! Edited by aj4u
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I didn't forget the talents. What about those who worked all different times of the day and were all were paid a penny? Some thought they should have received more for working longer but they all got exactly the same amount.

The point being that all worked and labored in the vinyard, whether at a young age (all day long) or they started at an older age. All can receive eternal life if they repent. Again, the key is that they loved God and Christ enough to show up and work.

I agree that apart from Christ, we can do nothing.

To earn Salvation, yes. Christ's works alone atone for sin and answer justice. However, our works can and do show that we love Him, and THAT is His message. That is what He wants for us. We work to show love to Him and to those we serve. Either we love Him and serve Him, or we love the world and serve Satan... we cannot do both. We cannot profess to love Him while we do not keep His first 2 commandments. He will use that to judge whether or not we love Him. Without those works, as so beautifully shown in the parable you quoted of the sheep and goats, we will be set of His left hand. So, from a sense, if we do not labor in the vineyard, then we are saying we do not love Christ, and the lack of works will mean a negative judgement. However, answering the call to work, even if it's late in the day, shows we love enough to move and do.

He was always perfect, but we have always been sinners, but by His grace through our faith in Him we are saved, and He will hold back no good thing from us.

As we come to Christ, and put off the natural man, and we begin to love God and exercise faith in Him, we can put off sin. We can visit the sick, feed the hungry, comfort the widow, and do good to all men because we love God and Christ. We don't always have to be sinners. This is what it means to be born again, to no longer desire evil, but to desire good for our fellow man. We don't have to always be sinners. He invites us to come to Him, it would be a vain invitation, and akin to a lie, if it were not possible.

I also agree that "One cannot be good and faithful in God's eyes unless they are born again, and put off the natural man, who is an enemy to God. They must be... (victorious over sin), with Christ's help, in overcoming this world. We cannot be Sunday Christians and be "good and faithful." I have said nothing to deny this is true!

You said it doesn't matter what we do. All I'm saying is that the parable you quoted makes it very clear that it does indeed matter what we do. I agree, not toward "earning" salvation, but toward showing God and Christ that we love Them and our fellow man, which are the first 2 commandments, which would indicate we have changed. It does make a difference whether or not we keep those first 2 commandments. The parable tells us if we don't, we'll be on His left hand, and if we do, we'll be on His right hand.

They are His works, the works of salvation (atonement and resurrection), and He said He will judge us by our works. To me, that means it does matter what we do.

We are saved by grace, but not without showing as much obedience as is possible for us. Or, in the words of a Book of Mormon prophet, we are saved by grace after all that we can do.

When I hear things like "it doesn't matter what we do," I understand it as we don't have to obey the first 2 commandments. If you did not mean it that way, I apologize, I misunderstood.

I know many Christians who really believe that they don't have to keep any commandments. They have been lied to, and they don't take the time to read the scriptures and learn for themselves. They like what they hear. They like that they don't have to work for it because it makes it easier to obtain. So, perhaps that influenced my understanding of your words because you used the same ones they do.

Edited by Justice
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The point being that all worked and labored in the vinyard, whether at a young age (all day long) or they started at an older age. All can receive eternal life if they repent. Again, the key is that they loved God and Christ enough to show up and work.

To earn Salvation, yes. Christ's works alone atone for sin and answer justice. However, our works can and do show that we love Him, and THAT is His message. That is what He wants for us. We work to show love to Him and to those we serve. Either we love Him and serve Him, or we love the world and serve Satan... we cannot do both. We cannot profess to love Him while we do not keep His first 2 commandments. He will use that to judge whether or not we love Him. Without those works, as so beautifully shown in the parable you quoted of the sheep and goats, we will be set of His left hand. So, from a sense, if we do not labor in the vineyard, then we are saying we do not love Christ, and the lack of works will mean a negative judgement. However, answering the call to work, even if it's late in the day, shows we love enough to move and do.

As we come to Christ, and put off the natural man, and we begin to love God and exercise faith in Him, we can put off sin. We can visit the sick, feed the hungry, comfort the widow, and do good to all men because we love God and Christ. We don't always have to be sinners. This is what it means to be born again, to no longer desire evil, but to desire good for our fellow man. We don't have to always be sinners. He invites us to come to Him, it would be a vain invitation, and akin to a lie, if it were not possible.

You said it doesn't matter what we do. All I'm saying is that the parable you quoted makes it very clear that it does indeed matter what we do. I agree, not toward "earning" salvation, but toward showing God and Christ that we love Them and our fellow man, which are the first 2 commandments, which would indicate we have changed. It does make a difference whether or not we keep those first 2 commandments. The parable tells us if we don't, we'll be on His left hand, and if we do, we'll be on His right hand.

They are His works, the works of salvation (atonement and resurrection), and He said He will judge us by our works. To me, that means it does matter what we do.

We are saved by grace, but not without showing as much obedience as is possible for us. Or, in the words of a Book of Mormon prophet, we are saved by grace after all that we can do.

When I hear things like "it doesn't matter what we do," I understand it as we don't have to obey the first 2 commandments. If you did not mean it that way, I apologize, I misunderstood.

I know many Christians who really believe that they don't have to keep any commandments. They have been lied to, and they don't take the time to read the scriptures and learn for themselves. They like what they hear. They like that they don't have to work for it because it makes it easier to obtain. So, perhaps that influenced my understanding of your words because you used the same ones they do.

"...they don't take the time to read the scriptures and learn for themselves."

Justice, your post are always well written and thought out. I have this to add. You can take scholars from both sides of this fence and come out with polarizing views. The Elders papers I have read from the LDS. ORG site are very well thought out and make a lot of sense. You can read from Billy Graham's writings and get an opposite view that is also well thought and supported. Just because your view is different, does not mean you are not studied in the subject. So where do we go from here. My suggestion is to agree to disagree, love each other, respect each other and to forgive each other. Let Jesus live through us and may we all agree that Jesus is the way. One day we will all know the answers.

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And, by the way, it is not my opinion that people who believe just the Bible do not have truth. There are so many wonderful and precious truths that can be had from the Bible alone.

But, when things disagree or contradict, like "there is only heaven and hell," then "in my Father's house are many mansions," it should raise a red flag.

I really am amazed at the contrdictions some people will believe.

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The point being that all worked and labored in the vinyard, whether at a young age (all day long) or they started at an older age. All can receive eternal life if they repent. Again, the key is that they loved God and Christ enough to show up and work.

To earn Salvation, yes. Christ's works alone atone for sin and answer justice. However, our works can and do show that we love Him, and THAT is His message. That is what He wants for us. We work to show love to Him and to those we serve. Either we love Him and serve Him, or we love the world and serve Satan... we cannot do both. We cannot profess to love Him while we do not keep His first 2 commandments. He will use that to judge whether or not we love Him. Without those works, as so beautifully shown in the parable you quoted of the sheep and goats, we will be set of His left hand. So, from a sense, if we do not labor in the vineyard, then we are saying we do not love Christ, and the lack of works will mean a negative judgement. However, answering the call to work, even if it's late in the day, shows we love enough to move and do..

You cannot earn salvation. It is a gift! Not of works otherwise you can boast about your works. God doesn't get the glory that way. It is even an insult to the Spirit of grace. It it like saying I could earn my way why do I need Christ?

As we come to Christ, and put off the natural man, and we begin to love God and exercise faith in Him, we can put off sin. We can visit the sick, feed the hungry, comfort the widow, and do good to all men because we love God and Christ. We don't always have to be sinners. This is what it means to be born again, to no longer desire evil, but to desire good for our fellow man. We don't have to always be sinners. He invites us to come to Him, it would be a vain invitation, and akin to a lie, if it were not possible..

It is Christ who sets us free from the chains of sin. Until we are set free we a servants/slaves of sin. He sets of free by our faith and his grace which also saves us. We just can't choose to put off the natural man; we need His grace. We can't choose to be saved; we must be drawn by the Father to Christ. Once we have Christ as Lord of our lives we can then choose not to sin, but until that happens we have no choice but to do what comes natural for sinful man.

You said it doesn't matter what we do. All I'm saying is that the parable you quoted makes it very clear that it does indeed matter what we do. I agree, not toward "earning" salvation, but toward showing God and Christ that we love Them and our fellow man, which are the first 2 commandments, which would indicate we have changed. It does make a difference whether or not we keep those first 2 commandments. The parable tells us if we don't, we'll be on His left hand, and if we do, we'll be on His right hand.

I didn't say it doesn't matter. If we have faith good works will be a natural result. It is like an apple tree it doesn't strive to bring fruit. The same with those who live by faith because they are just.

They are His works, the works of salvation (atonement and resurrection), and He said He will judge us by our works. To me, that means it does matter what we do.

We are saved by grace, but not without showing as much obedience as is possible for us. Or, in the words of a Book of Mormon prophet, we are saved by grace after all that we can do.]..

Those who are saved and live by faith will not be judged by their works for they are not appointed onto wrath. It is an error to think that we have to add anything such as works to what Christ has already done. It is a trick of Satan to lead souls into perdition. Jesus has already completed the work on calvary. For by grace are you saved through faith period. You don't have to add anyting to it. Believing you do is dangerous.

When I hear things like "it doesn't matter what we do," I understand it as we don't have to obey the first 2 commandments. If you did not mean it that way, I apologize, I misunderstood.

I know many Christians who really believe that they don't have to keep any commandments. They have been lied to, and they don't take the time to read the scriptures and learn for themselves. They like what they hear. They like that they don't have to work for it because it makes it easier to obtain. So, perhaps that influenced my understanding of your words because you used the same ones they do.

I did not say it doesn't matter what you do, but I am saying you don't have to work for your salvation because you can't work for what is a gift. However, those that are saved might have different rewards and crowns for their service, but that has nothing to do with the gift of salvation. In order to be saved, we can't know about Christ; We have to know Him. If we think, for instance, that Christ is a created being like we are, we don't know Him! Christ is my creator, and I know Him! Edited by aj4u
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I didn't say it doesn't matter.

God chooses who will sit on His right or left regardless of what we do on earth.

You didn't use those words, but they mean the same thing.

You cannot earn salvation. It is a gift! Not of works otherwise you can boast about your works. God doesn't get the glory that way. It is even an insult to the Spirit of grace. It it like saying I could earn my way why do I need Christ?

Yes. You and I agree, and we have said the same thing here.

It is Christ who sets us free from the chains of sin. Until we are set free we a servants/slaves of sin. He sets of free by our faith and his grace which also saves us.

He describes this process as His yoke. He said because of His yoke our burdens are made light. A yoke binds 2 together to move a load or burden. He will not move it without us. We cannot move it without Him. It sounds as if you're saying all we can do is sit and wait for Him to move our burden. I hope you don't mean this because this is not what He taught. He invites us to come to Him. He commands us to keep commadments. He will not force any man to come to Him. He will not force any man to keep a single commandment. We must come to Him and join in His yoke. If we do not then pull, a yoke cannot function properly.

His Gospel is one of charity and love. If we do not have and exercise charity or love then our load or burden (sin) will not move. He will not drag it Himself. He overcame the effects of sin, but if we continue to sin He cannot help us. He saved us from our sin, not in our sin.

If we have faith good works will be a natural result.

In other words, we cannot have faith without works. So, if faith is required, then so are works.

I know that turns you off. But, listen to what I'm saying. I'm saying Christ is the way. Christ wrought the atonement, we did not. Christ wrought the resurrection, we did not. But, just because He did those works, it does not mean He doesn't place a condition for us to work. We cannot atone for sin and we cannot resurrect ourselves. But, if we do not keep His commandments then we will not have the atonement applied to our sins.

God chooses who will sit on His right or left regardless of what we do on earth.

Again, this is not true. He said He will use what we do to judge who sits on His right or left hand. Read the parable again. It's very plain.

Yes, He will choose, but He chooses based on our works.

Read the parable you quoted about the sheep and goats. The sheep were sheep because they did the things the goats did not. They listened and obeyed. They loved their fellow man.

Those who are saved and live by faith will not be judged by their works for they are not appointed onto wrath.

If it does not matter how we live, how can He know if we are true believers?

I see a contradiction between these 2 things. Christ said over and over that if we love Him we will keep His commandments, and that if we profess to love Him and do not keep His commandments, we are liars.

All will be judged.

Revelation 11:

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Judgement will be a time of reward for those who have taken upon the name of Christ.

It is an error to think that we have to add anything such as works to what Christ has already done. It is a trick of Satan to lead souls into perdition. Jesus has already completed the work on calvary. For by grace are you saved through faith period. You don't have to add anyting to it. Believing you do is dangerous.

Why aren't all men saved?

If it doesn't matter what men do, or if Christ will not use our actions or works to judge us by, why will some men go to hell?

In one sentence you say we don't need anything else, then in the next you say we need to know Him, or we need to do this or that. The trick Satan wants you to believe is that you don't have to do anything.

Why would Satan lie and tell me I have to do good works?

That doesn't make sense. It is more like Satan to tell you you don't have to do good works. It's more like Him to say all you have to do is sit there and wait for the glory of God to come upon you. Do nothing, for God will save you. No, my friend, that is the lie. Satan is trying to deceive you into thinking you don't have to keep Christ's commandments.

It is true that you cannot do anything that can earn your salvation. Christ's works are what save us. But, don't confuse that with His commandments. He commands us to keep His commandments and He has said He will judge us by what we do (I refer again to the parable you quoted).

Matthew 5:

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Ephesians 2:

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

2 Timothy 3:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Titus 2:

7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Titus 3:

8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

1 Peter 2:

12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Good works do not add to Christ's works to bring salvation to man, but they are required of a man who claims to be Christian.

Luke 6:

46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

John 14:

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Again I ask, if it makes no difference what a man does (knowing faith without works is dead), why are some men saved and others not?

Edited by Justice
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I'm getting sucked in to discussing about 40 topics at once. I know better. I think for the most part we agree on nearly everything.

The real question I'd like to discuss is about the lie you mentioned.

God commands us to do good to our neighbor, or our fellow man. Satan is a liar and fights against God.

Why would Satan lie and tell us to do good?

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Justice: I think we are playing tag with the gospel. I am failing to communicate what I really believe to you. What I am trying to say is I agree with you that the 2 greatest commandments fufill all the law and the prophets, but we cannot accomplish those commands without God's help. That is where I believe we agree. When I said God puts who he wants on His right hand in His kingdom regardless of what they do. I meant that in the context of the woman asking Jesus to let her sons sit on His right and left side. Jesus said that that is for His father to decide. That is all. The main point I was trying to make is that we are saved by grace through faith, but you are saying yes to what I say and add only after we do all we can. In other words, you are saying we have to add to what Christ has already done to make salvation complete for us. This is where we disagree. I mentioned about the thief on the cross and the parable of the laborer where everyone got the same. When it comes to salvation, it is the same across the board. God, however, is not mocked a man will reap what he sows. If we don't know who Christ is, it doesn't matter what good we did. He will say I never knew you. In order for Him to know us, we must know Him! To know him is to have eternal life. We can know we have eternal life. John said I write these things to you so you might know you have eternal life.

Edited by aj4u
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This is the work of God that you believe in whom he sent. Not all are going to heaven because they don't believe in the work of God. Yes, we should be zealous for good works and let them shine, but we shouldn't put our faith in them as if there is any power in it to save or make God love us more.

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We have been drifting from the topic of this thread, but the difference between Telestial and Terrestrial is not important. The most important thing is knowing who Jesus is. I believe that Jesus Christ is the Word of God made flesh. I believe He is the glory of God; He is also the exact representation of all that God is in nature and essence or being! All things were made by Him and for Him. He is the Word of God made flesh to dwell with us. He created the things seen and unseen. That means he created the angels. Jesus is not a created being. He always existed and before becoming the Son of God, He was the Word of God. It is written, “In the beginning was the Word the Word was with God and the Word was God! There was never a time God was without His word. He exalts His word above all His name. Knowing who Jesus really is affects our eternal destiny. To know Him is to have eternal life. The Father God is Spirit not flesh and blood. God says He will not share His glory with another, but He shares it with Jesus because He is not another. In Is. 45 God says, “I am the Lord God, before me there was no god nor shall there be any after me!” Jesus does not have nor did he ever have any spiritual brothers that were equal to him at any time. He is our only hope for salvation. Salvation is a gift. We cannot earn it or work for it. We are saved by grace through faith. No man can come to God unless he goes through Jesus. He is the way the truth and the life. You have no need that a man teaches you who God is. The Spirit of God will lead you into truth. You cannot trust feelings inside of you; you can only trust Christ by faith. Faith is better than a known path. Jesus is Emmanuel (God with us).

Edited by aj4u
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I think we agree.

You saying we have to keep the first 2 commandments is all I'm saying. It's not that they earn us salvation, I have never believed that. It's that we will be judged by it.

The main point I was trying to make is that we are saved by grace through faith, but you are saying yes to what I say and add only after we do all we can. In other words, you are saying we have to add to what Christ has already done to make salvation complete for us. This is where we disagree.

I really don't think we disagree. I think we just come from different backgrounds with a different vocabulary to express the same thing.

The "after all we can do" part is an expression of "we can't get there by ourselves." No matter what we do, no matter what we work (after all that we can do), we need Christ. All Christians should want to do good works. Not to earn salvation, but to show the Lord that we love Him. As your parable shows, it is He who decides will be on His right or left, however, He has given us the primary criteria He will use to judge us by... our works. That parable so clearly teaches that.

I agree that Christ is the only way. What I get discouraged by is when I see or hear Christians say they believe in Christ and are saved, yet they don't think they have to keep His commandments. It doesn't make any sense to me to believe Him, yet not believe what He says.

Edited by Justice
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