Difference between Telestial and Terrestrial


wandy
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So, it not that good works are required for salvation,

But, for salvation good works are required?

I get that good works do not earn salvation, but I'm trying to piece together your understanding of faith being required, which faith includes good works, but good works are not required.

The logic I'm trying to work through is:

1. Faith requires good works.

2. Salvation requires faith.

3. Good works are not required for salvation.

In logic, if 1 and 2 are true, then 3 must be false.

I know you're having a very difficult time saying good works are required for salvation, but as long as you don't believe they earn your salvation, what's the harm? Didn't Christ command good works? Didn't Christ say good works will follow all believers, and that belief is required? Wouold not good works then be required as a natural consequence?

I don't understand how if Christ commanded good works that it's a lie from Satan that we must do them. Maybe if you step through your logic statements very simply for me.

I'm going to use a very simple discussion a mom might have with her kids to relay the principle I'm trying to arrive at:

Mom, we're going swimming in the pool.

OK, but you can't go swimming until you put on your swimming suit first.

Huh? Yes I can. I don't have to have my swimming suit to be able to swim. I can swim just fine in my clothes or my birthday suit.

Alright, What I mean is if you don't put on your swimming suit, you're not going swimming.

Using the swimming analogy to make my point that it's all about semantics:

It's not that we somehow enable ourselves to be able to swim by putting on good works, because whether or not we can physically swim is a gift. It's that in order to be able to swim, we have been told to put on good works before we can.

So, saying I have to put on good works in order to swim is a true statement, even if putting them on doesn't make us swim any better.

The good works show that we have set aside the natural man and have become obedient to Christ, which means we have overcome the natural desire we have in this fallen world to sin. Satan's lie is that we can sin (or desire sin) and still be saved.

Here is a Book of Mormon scripture that speaks of our day:

2 Nephi 28:

7 Yea, and there shall be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die; and it shall be well with us.

8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.

9 Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark.

So, strictly from a logic perspective, saying you don't have have to have good works to be saved is saying you can sin and still be saved. Many think since we are not perfect it must mean we don't have to have good works. Because if good works were required, no one would be saved. They fail to add repentance into the equation, or they don't understand it. Repentance is also a commandment.

There is a reason for this misunderstanding in the Bible. I will post it next.

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The greatest confusion people have about works when they read the Bible is how it relates to law. Romans 3 is a good place to see what I'm referring to.

The Apostles had a difficult challenge teaching and converting both Jews and Gentiles. The Jews believed that Gentiles also had be circumcised, or live by the law of Moses, because that was the way God's people had always lived. The Law of Moses was also called the law or performances, law of deeds, or law of works, because it specifically outlined what a "believer" must do each day. It was difficult for them to see that Christ was the great and last sacrifice, and that He fulfilled the Law of Moses, and it was done away in Him.

The Apostles were preaching the Law of Christ, or the law of belief, or the law of faith. They were trying to preach that as long as men came to Christ they were saved, it didn't make any difference if they went "through" the law of works to get there, or if they became "circumcised." What mattered is that they made the covenant at baptism, or that they became "circumcised in their hearts."

Listen and watch very closely for this dilemma in this chapter and how Paul addresses it.

Romans 3:

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

And one from Galations also:

Galatians 2:

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Works of the Law = Law of Moses

Faith = Law of Christ

The big misunderstanding they had about works is that the works and performances of the Law of Moses doesn't save anyone, neither those under the law or those outside the law. The Law of Moses was meant to point those who followed it to the Messiah, or Christ. Oddly enough, many under the law didn't believe Chrsit was the Messiah. But, those that did could be saved through the law of faith just as the Gentiles.

So, the Bible never meant to say we don't have to keep commandments through Christ, or work through Christ, but that all we need is Christ's law, not the Law of Moses.

So, when I say works are required for salvation, I'm saying the works that Christ taught are required because that's how we demonstrate our love of God and love of our fellow man, which are the first 2 great commandments.

1 John 4:

17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

John even alludes to the saints having part in the judgement because of their works.

1 John 5:

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Very plain.

1 John 2:

5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

The criteria is what we do, not what we say or believe.

John 8:

31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

Titus 3:

8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

It says that if you do not do His works then you do not believe in Him. Read Matthew 5 and 6, it's the whole point of the beattitudes.

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Let's say someone is engaging in sin. Let's say a man is cheating on his wife. This man goes to church every Sunday and was baptized into his church and confesses Christ.

What is your advice to him about works?

He is simply acting on an urge that he was born with. How can sin condemn him?

Does he have eternal life because he confessed Christ?

Christ's atonement will wash his sin away if he confesses Christ, right?

-------------------------------------------

Let's say he confesses his sin, repents and never commits adultery again. Is stopping the sin and repenting the end of his coming to Christ?

Does He love God by stopping the sin but remaining idle?

Does he have eternal life because he repented?

Would you counsel him to do anything more?

-------------------------------------------

If Christ's atonement was enough to save all men from their sin, what is the difference between the man's standing with God when comparing his situation in the 2 bolded questions?

Did the sin change his standing with God?

If so, why did the man's repentance (work) NOT change the man's standing? Is his changed standing set in stone after his sin? If so, why repent?

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Listen and watch very closely for this dilemma in this chapter and how Paul addresses it.

Romans 3:

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. You see the works of the law cannot save you, but it points you to faith in Christ which is the work of God because out of faith through God's grace comes the good works that validates our faith as we fulfill the law of Christ and escape the law of sin and death

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: This is making my case 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; Notice we are justified by His grace through faith which is the works of God; moreover, Paul never mentiones we are saved by following the law or good works because it cancels the law of Christ in our life making it have no effect 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Notice justification comes from believe (Faith) 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. This is what I have been saying. If we have faith, our boast is in the Lord because He does the good works through us. Here is the tricky part and the difference between us: you have been telling me in so many words we only have one life; it will soon be past only what is done for Christ will last. That sounds good and true, but the Bible doesn't say that. In so many words it says it is only one life it will soon be past only what Christ does through you will last. Do you see the crucial difference? 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

And one from Galations also:

Galatians 2:

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Works of the Law = Law of Moses

Faith = Law of Christ

The big misunderstanding they had about works is that the works and performances of the Law of Moses doesn't save anyone, neither those under the law or those outside the law. The Law of Moses was meant to point those who followed it to the Messiah, or Christ. Oddly enough, many under the law didn't believe Chrsit was the Messiah. But, those that did could be saved through the law of faith just as the Gentiles.

So, the Bible never meant to say we don't have to keep commandments through Christ, or work through Christ, but that all we need is Christ's law, not the Law of Moses.

So, when I say works are required for salvation, I'm saying the works that Christ taught are required because that's how we demonstrate our love of God and love of our fellow man, which are the first 2 great commandments.

1 John 4:

17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

John even alludes to the saints having part in the judgement because of their works.

1 John 5:

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Very plain.

1 John 2:

5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

The criteria is what we do, not what we say or believe. Yes, what we do is important, but it's not the criteria you have missed the point!

John 8:

31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

Titus 3:

8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

It says that if you do not do His works then you do not believe in Him. Read Matthew 5 and 6, it's the whole point of the beattitudes.

This is correct but you need to understand it in context. Look at the few verses that come before it: Ttus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

What he is saying here is we can only maintain good works by having our faith in Christ being justified from sin by His grace which is God's devine enabling to maintain good works. As long as we keep our focus on Christ not any other teachers or teacher good works will be done through us because God works in us the will to do of His good pleasure, but if we try in our strength to do good works and seek to be justified by it, we'll fall short of the grace of God! For by grace are you saved through faith and that is not of yourself otherwise you can boast in pride. God will not have it! Edited by aj4u
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I have had an up and down life when it comes to religion. I was raised LDS and believed in it up until I was about 18. I began to question what was right, if anything. I began doing drugs and began denying that there was a God. Last year I was diagnosed with cancer and began studying the scriptures again. I have repented of all oth bad things I have done on earth. So my question is do I still qualify for anything above the Telestial Kingdom?

Follow Enos advice and seek council from the Savior through the Holy Ghost for that answer. No book or people's advice would tell you otherwise. Seeking it directly from the one who can answer it. Have faith in yourself that you can receive it. I can attest, it will be done. ;)

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I'm not suggesting we boast in our works. However, I'm also not suggesting that in fear of boasting we do nothing; no works whatsoever. If we do not show works, or what is described as our light, then we cannot claim to believe in Jesus Christ.

You're caught in a double edge sword. Fear of boasting is not justification for not keeping Christ's commandments. We must keep them and not boast.

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If it helps others to see the 'content' with further personal clarity, then it is ok. As long as the Spirit will provide that confirmation. If not, then it is a waste of time. Now, I am thankful the Lord did boast in HIS FATHER's work and His own. ^_^

Now a person can do the works and apply a measure of faith in this last generation of Saints. Does this means he/she will inherit the Celestial glory described by Paul? No! Yes, I know we assumed it is so based on observational measurements but unless the Holy Ghost present this person and the Godhead had made it known, then I would still be fearing and trembling over my salvation. ;)

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I'm not suggesting we boast in our works. However, I'm also not suggesting that in fear of boasting we do nothing; no works whatsoever. If we do not show works, or what is described as our light, then we cannot claim to believe in Jesus Christ.

You're caught in a double edge sword. Fear of boasting is not justification for not keeping Christ's commandments. We must keep them and not boast.

I didn't say you were suggesting boasting in our works nor am I suggesting that in fear of boasting we do nothing. If good works are not present in our lives, then there is no faith in our lives either. I am not caught in a double edged sword my friend. The double edged sword is an important part of my armor for the Lord. I use it as a weapon against very imagination that lifts itself up against the knowlege of Christ. My faith is a shield. I know who am in Christ. I have on the helmet of salvation. I have a few questions for you:

1. What do you define as good works?

2. What makes you think that I am looking for justification not to keep Christ's commands?

3. What makes you think I don't have works for Christ in my life?

4. Have you carefully read anything I wrote?

5. Why do you judge me?

Justice, I can see that your mind is made up. So, I will not confuse or annoy you with what is true from the Scriptures pertaining to this issue. I am also sorry you feel this way, but you will not be able to say that I didn't work at trying to convince you! By the way, I do not fear boasting. My boast is in the Lord.

Edited by aj4u
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Ep2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Do you think the author of these verses was suggesting that in fear of boasting we do nothing?

My whole point to you was: You cannot work for a gift! Not that we should do nothing!

If anyone insists on working for their salvation, they won't be receiving it!

Edited by aj4u
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1. What do you define as good works?

In the parable of the sheep and goats you quoted, the Lord mentions some, visting the sick, feeding the hungry, caring for widows, and other would include repentance, preaching the Gospel, and anything that you do out of love meant to benefit or lift another. Those are all good works and things Satan will not tempt you to do.

2. What makes you think that I am looking for justification not to keep Christ's commands?

It's not you in particular. I don't know you. It's the belief that Christ has not required anything of us in order to be saved that I'm speaking against. When you say our works don't matter, I'm confused how our sin can change our standing with God, but being obedient to His commandments does not. I'm confused how repenting doesn't change our standing with God, yet we are required to repent in order to have eternal life.

3. What makes you think I don't have works for Christ in my life?

I don't assume anything. You sound like a God fearing person to me, which, to me, would mean you show Christ you love Him by doing your best to keep His commandments. In my thinking this means you show good works in your life and others see this as a light.

4. Have you carefully read anything I wrote?

Yes, in fact I've read each of your posts many times carefully in an attempt to understand some of the things you say. I see some contradictions. I have said I don't understand. I have asked for explainations, and you have tried. I am slower than the average Joe, so I just still don't understand.

5. Why do you judge me?

I apologize if it seem I am judging you. My intention is to discuss a belief, not you. I am just trying to understand how one can say we are saved through faith, but works aren't necessary, and in the same breath say you cannot have faith without works.

I guess I'll keep trying to figure it out by myself. I'm sorry I have upset you or came across as not genuinely interested in learning you view.

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No, but if you don't use the gift, it's as if the gift was never given. You must do something with the gifts or talents God gives you or you are a slothful steward. That equates to works.

Try reading through post #53 in this thread.

Edited by Justice
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Follow Enos advice and seek council from the Savior through the Holy Ghost for that answer. No book or people's advice would tell you otherwise. Seeking it directly from the one who can answer it. Have faith in yourself that you can receive it. I can attest, it will be done. ;)

I won't put faith in myself, but I will put it in the Lord. We can be our own worst enemies
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In the parable of the sheep and goats you quoted, the Lord mentions some, visting the sick, feeding the hungry, caring for widows, and other would include repentance, preaching the Gospel, and anything that you do out of love meant to benefit or lift another. Those are all good works and things Satan will not tempt you to do.

It's not you in particular. I don't know you. It's the belief that Christ has not required anything of us in order to be saved that I'm speaking against. When you say our works don't matter, I'm confused how our sin can change our standing with God, but being obedient to His commandments does not. I'm confused how repenting doesn't change our standing with God, yet we are required to repent in order to have eternal life.

I don't assume anything. You sound like a God fearing person to me, which, to me, would mean you show Christ you love Him by doing your best to keep His commandments. In my thinking this means you show good works in your life and others see this as a light.

Yes, in fact I've read each of your posts many times carefully in an attempt to understand some of the things you say. I see some contradictions. I have said I don't understand. I have asked for explainations, and you have tried. I am slower than the average Joe, so I just still don't understand.

I apologize if it seem I am judging you. My intention is to discuss a belief, not you. I am just trying to understand how one can say we are saved through faith, but works aren't necessary, and in the same breath say you cannot have faith without works.

I guess I'll keep trying to figure it out by myself. I'm sorry I have upset you or came across as not genuinely interested in learning you view.

You haven't upset me, but I have gotten frustrated trying to explain. I had to go back and modify some things I said. Please read it again. Go through each post carefully because you're bringing up things that I am not saying. Find what is not making sense or show me the contradiction so I can explain. Please this is very important.
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No, but if you don't use the gift, it's as if the gift was never given. You must do something with the gifts or talents God gives you or you are a slothful steward. That equates to works.

Try reading through post #53 in this thread.

Don't confuse the gift of salvation with gifts and talents. The one thing we need to do with the gift of salvation is receive it. The Bible does says "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" it doesn't say work for it. The spiritual gifts & talents are what God gives in different measures to each of us. We must be faithful stewards of what He has given us. Remember He said be faithfull servant not successfull servant! If you truly have faith, you will be doing works for God faithfully! Edited by aj4u
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Let's say someone is engaging in sin. Let's say a man is cheating on his wife. This man goes to church every Sunday and was baptized into his church and confesses Christ.

What is your advice to him about works?

He is simply acting on an urge that he was born with. How can sin condemn him?

Does he have eternal life because he confessed Christ?

Christ's atonement will wash his sin away if he confesses Christ, right?

I would tell him. He that abides in sin, is a servant to sin, and free from the laws or commands of Christ. But he that abides in Christ and puts to death the deeds of the flesh is a slave to righteousness, but he is free from the law of sin and death.

-------------------------------------------

Let's say he confesses his sin, repents and never commits adultery again. Is stopping the sin and repenting the end of his coming to Christ?

NO, but he is off to a good start. Each day presents new battles. We must die daily to sin.

Does He love God by stopping the sin but remaining idle?

Yes, he loves God by stopping and NO does not by being idle.

Does he have eternal life because he repented?

Would you counsel him to do anything more?

He must receive Christ and repent, but he cannot repent in his own strength. It takes faith through God's grace! Then he has eternal life where he is growing daily by the washing, renewing and regeneration of the Holy Ghost. If he is in Christ he is a new creature every thing is new the old is passed away. The path of the just is as a shinning light. It shines more and more until the perfect day.

-------------------------------------------

If Christ's atonement was enough to save all men from their sin, what is the difference between the man's standing with God when comparing his situation in the 2 bolded questions?

Did the sin change his standing with God?

If so, why did the man's repentance (work) NOT change the man's standing? Is his changed standing set in stone after his sin? If so, why repent?

When we accept the Lord, He gives us the power to become the sons of God. If we sin, it breaks our fellowship with Him, but we are still His child. God will chasten him if he doesn't repent soon enough because God is dealing with him as a son. When the unsaved sin, it keeps them from God altogether. Edited by aj4u
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I agree that when we do what we're supposed to do, that is receive Christ, that He gives us power to become the sons of God. So, here we agree. Now all I need to do is figure out what it means to become a son of God. Here is the scripture you quoted:

John 1:

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

I did some research into what it means to be "sons of God."

Romans 8:

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

This scripture equates being "led by the Spirit of God" to being a son of God.

Philip. 2:

15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

This one equates being a "light in the world" to being a son of God.

Do we agree?

So, if we were making a dictionary in order to underdstand the term "son of God, the definition might look like:

son of God:

1. being led by the Spirit of God, 2. being a light in the world.

So, how do we know if we are being led by the Spirit of God, and how do we know we are a light in the world? If we answer this, we'll know what we have to do in order to become a son of God as defined in John chapter 1.

Before I go on, do we agree that becoming a son of God, as defined in John chapter 1, is synonomous with eternal life? It is something we gain through our belief in Christ, as it says. I am of the opinion that it is the same thing, gaining eternal life and becoming a "son of God" as defined here.

Here are a couple scriptures that use the term "by the Spirit:"

1 Corinthians 6:

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Key words in this scripture that are related:

washed

sanctified

justified

1 John 3:

24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

The key phrase seems to be this one:

keep His commandments

One becomes washed by Christ, through repentance (which is a work)

We could get into a long discussion about justification and sanctification.

One keeps the commandments by following the Spirit.

Again, I am drawn to how much a part of becoming a son of God is related to what we do.

Please offer insights to where I drifted off topic, or offer other scriptures that help further understand what it means to become a son of God.

The thing that also stands out is the origianl scripture you quoted.

John 1:

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

To them, or to those that receive Him and believe on His name, gave He power to become...

It does not say, He gave them a gift that turned them into...

He gave them power to become...

So, if we receive this gift that He gives us, which is all you said we need to do, then we have received the "power to become." We then use this gift to become.

OK. Let's assume we receive Him, so He then gives us the power to become, then what? Is that what eternal life is, is to simply receive the power to become a son of God? Is that the same as being a son of God?

I'm also led back to this scripture we discussed earlier:

Matthew 5:

14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

We described light as coming from a son of God, and here it describes light as good works.

I'll wait for you to correct any thoughts you may feel are wrong.

Edited by Justice
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Here is the definition of grace in our Bible disctionary.

First, we agree that grace is what this free gift He gives us is called?

Grace

It is through the grace of the Lord Jesus, made possible by his atoning sacrifice, that mankind will be raised in immortality, every person receiving his body from the grave in a condition of everlasting life. It is likewise through the grace of the Lord that individuals, through faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance of their sins, receive strength and assistance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means. This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts.

Power to become?

Comments?

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Here is the definition of grace in our Bible disctionary.

First, we agree that grace is what this free gift He gives us is called?

Grace

It is through the grace of the Lord Jesus, made possible by his atoning sacrifice, that mankind will be raised in immortality, every person receiving his body from the grave in a condition of everlasting life. It is likewise through the grace of the Lord that individuals, through faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance of their sins, receive strength and assistance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means. This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts.

Power to become?

Comments?

That was an incomplete and inaccurate definition of grace. Grace is also God's unmerited favor! There is some truth to your definition, but I wouldn't trust that source. By the way, Justice, I think we can bring this to a head if you can answer one question. Do believe that Christ's death and shed blood on the cross is not sufficient to save us unless in addition to his death we work for salvation using our own strength and best efforts? Your answer to this question will clear everything up for me as to were we both stand. A yes or no response will do. Thanks AJ Edited by aj4u
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John 14:

2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

I think if there was only 1 place in heaven, with 1 reward of glory, then this scripture would be worded very different.

- - - - - -

Hello... I'm new... but just would comment that I have always figured that the Father's HOUSE must be where the Father lives... so did not think it should include other "glories".

The other thing that I have not been able to get past in this discussion of how many destinations there are is this: Rev. 20:15 says if your name is NOT in the book of life, your destiny will be the lake of fire.... but Rev. 21:24-27 says that if your name IS in the book of life, your destiny will be in a place spoken of as the new heaven and earth, with open gates between the two, and it would appear...access to the very THRONE of God. I checked this in the Joseph Smith translation... and it read the same. I just don't see any other options besides the name in book, and name not in book. Do you ??

Pilgrim2

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John 14:

2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

I think if there was only 1 place in heaven, with 1 reward of glory, then this scripture would be worded very different.

- - - - - -

Hello... I'm new... but just would comment that I have always figured that the Father's HOUSE must be where the Father lives... so did not think it should include other "glories".

The other thing that I have not been able to get past in this discussion of how many destinations there are is this: Rev. 20:15 says if your name is NOT in the book of life, your destiny will be the lake of fire.... but Rev. 21:24-27 says that if your name IS in the book of life, your destiny will be in a place spoken of as the new heaven and earth, with open gates between the two, and it would appear...access to the very THRONE of God. I checked this in the Joseph Smith translation... and it read the same. I just don't see any other options besides the name in book, and name not in book. Do you ??

Pilgrim2

That sounds reasonable to me. May I ask what is your religious persuasion?
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No, but if you don't use the gift, it's as if the gift was never given. You must do something with the gifts or talents God gives you or you are a slothful steward. That equates to works.

Try reading through post #53 in this thread.

That is not true, and it is true that we need to use our gifts. It is written, "The gifts of God are without repentance."

As far as your commentary on power to become the sons of God, I see a maze of semantics that may not take us in the right direction. Some religions believe that we are already sons of God, and God gives power to continue to be sons. I don't believe that because we are not all children of God some people are of their father the devil. All people on earth are God's creation, but not all are sons of God.

I believe that once we truly accept and surrender to Jesus we are sons, and God from then on deals with us as sons.

Can you please answer my yes or no question on the other post? By the way, I did review post #53 and commented on it

Edited by aj4u
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Then, you will never know the Savior personally. Enos did witnessed the Godhead in person when he received that answer.

But I already know the Savior personally! In fact, He is in heart now! He said, "Behold I stand at the door and knock if any man hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and sup with him and he with me." Rev 3:10 I heard him knocking, and I opened the door to let him in. If you hear him knock, you can do the same as I.
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