Difference between Telestial and Terrestrial

[aj4u]

Really! Then described Him. Then the Holy Ghost and while you are at it, Heavenly Parents.

This is where Christianity lost its faith....

I am sorry, but it wouldn't do any good to describe Him to you. You will have to experience a personal relationship with Him for yourself. It would be like trying to describe what a chocolate covered strawberry looks and taste like to someone who has never seen or tasted it.

[Pilgrim2]

That sounds reasonable to me. May I ask what is your religious persuasion?

Christian.... but very interested in LDS doctrine because of family... and you?

[aj4u]

Christian.... but very interested in LDS doctrine because of family... and you?

Are interested in their doctrine or in being a LDS?

[aj4u]

What happen to Justice. We were in the middle of a discussion and he disappeared?

[beefche]

What happen to Justice. We were in the middle of a discussion and he disappeared?

Dinner? Bathroom? Taking out the trash? Abducted by aliens?

[bytor2112]

That was an incomplete and inaccurate definition of grace. Grace is also God's unmerited favor! There is some truth to your definition, but I wouldn't trust that source. By the way, Justice, I think we can bring this to a head if you can answer one question. Do believe that Christ's death and shed blood on the cross is not sufficient to save us unless in addition to his death we work for salvation using our own strength and best efforts? Your answer to this question will clear everything up for me as to were we both stand. A yes or no response will do. Thanks AJ

Does salvation come by grace, or grace alone, by grace without works? It surely does, without any question in all its parts, types, kinds, and degrees.

We are saved by grace, without works; it is a gift of God. How else could it come?

In his goodness and grace the great God ordained and established the plan of salvation. No works on our part were required.

In his goodness and grace he created this earth and all that is on it, with man as the crowning creature of his creating--without which creation his spirit children could not obtain immortality and eternal life. No works on our part were required.

In his goodness and grace he provided for the Fall of man, thus bringing mortality and death and a probationary estate into being--without all of which there would be no immortality and eternal life. And again no works on our part were required.

In his goodness and grace--and this above all--he gave his Only Begotten Son to ransom man and all life from the temporal and spiritual death brought into the world by the Fall of Adam.

He sent his Son to redeem mankind, to atone for the sins of the world, “to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39). And again all this comes to us as a free gift and without works.

There is nothing any man could do to create himself. This was the work of the Lord God.

Nor did we have any part in the Fall of man, without which there could be no salvation. The Lord provided the way, and Adam and Eve put the system into operation.

And finally, there neither has been, nor is, nor ever can be any way nor means by which man alone can, or any power he possesses, redeem himself.

We cannot resurrect ourselves anymore than we can create ourselves. We cannot create a heavenly abode for the Saints, nor make provision for the continuation of the family unit in eternity, nor bring salvation and exaltation into being. All these things are ordained and established by that God who is the Father of us all. And they all came into being and are made available to us, as free gifts, without works, because of the infinite goodness and grace of Him whose children we are.

Truly, there is no way to overstate the goodness and grandeurs and glories of the grace of God which bringeth salvation. Such wondrous love, such unending mercy, such infinite compassion and condescension--all these can come only from the Eternal God who lives in eternal life and who desires all of his children to live as he lives and be inheritors of eternal life. -Elder Bruce R McConkie

[Jim108]

Really! Then described Him. Then the Holy Ghost and while you are at it, Heavenly Parents.

This is where Christianity lost its faith....

"This is where Christianity lost its faith"

Hemidakota, would you describe yourself as being a member of Christianity. I have read many post of LDS members that say they are. .....and if you are, have you lost your faith? Please explain your position regarding this bold statement.

[Justice]

By the way, Justice, I think we can bring this to a head if you can answer one question. Do believe that Christ's death and shed blood on the cross is not sufficient to save us unless in addition to his death we work for salvation using our own strength and best efforts? Your answer to this question will clear everything up for me as to were we both stand. A yes or no response will do. Thanks AJ

This is an unfair question. You changed subjects mid-stream and therefore asked a leading question. Then, you give me only yes and no options.

I don't believe being "saved" and obtaining "salvation" are the same things, yet you used them in the same sentence while implying they are the same.

So, to being saved, yes, Christ's works in Gethsemane (don't forget the atonement) and on Golgotha (crucifixion and death) and in the Garden Tomb (don't forget the resurrection) is enough to save all mankind from the effects of the fall. This is unconditional to all who have been and ever will be born on earth.

Do you believe immortality and eternal life are the same things?

The above grants us immortality. What about eternal life or salvation? Salvation or exaltation is more than to just exist forever. Those in the lake of fire will exist forever. Is salvation better than the lake of fire?

The Gospel of Jesus Christ demands that at the very least we believe in Him, regardless of what you think that means. If you believe in Him you gain eternal life, if you do not, then all you are guaranteed of is immortality. So, this mean yes, there is something you must do: believe in Him, because not believing in Him does not bring salvation.

What about that scripture in John you quoted about the power that Christ gives us, or the gift, as an enabling power, does it not mean that it enables us to become something that we cannot become on our own? Or, do you interpret that He will give us the power to become, and then also do the becoming for us?

[Justice]

What happen to Justice. We were in the middle of a discussion and he disappeared?

I've been out of town all day visiting my mom for Mother's Day tomorrow, since I can't tomorrow because I have been asked to teach a class at church. I just got back. Sorry it took so long to respond. I really couldn't afford to be gone that long, I have lots to do... but again, I couldn't afford to not go see my mom on Mother's Day. She's the only one I have and her health is slowly dropping. Also, sorry that I posted before reading everything. I see you responded to my previous post and I did not see it.

[aj4u]

Dinner? Bathroom? Taking out the trash? Abducted by aliens?

That explains it. It must be all 4! Abducted by Aliens:eek: Can we get him back????

[Justice]

Here's the bottom line for me. I know that Jesus Christ lives. I know He suffered, died, and rose again for me, in order that I can have eternal life.

If I do nothing about that, I am worse than those who don't believe altogether. If I don't show love to others then I would be the worst kind of person on earth. I could never claim to have this belief, faith, or knowledge of Jesus Christ (call it what you want) and think all was done. I do try to work out my salvation with fear and trembling every day. Not because I think His works aren't enough to grant me eternal life, but because if I don't learn His ways and love His ways, I cannot claim to know Him.

Matthew 7:

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy bname have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended athese sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

This parable, along with the one about the sheep and goats, about sums it up.

This is all about your understanding of the word believe in Jesus Christ. What does it mean to believe in Him? Can we believe in Him and not think His commandments are requirements? I can't. If you can, then that is our difference.

I will not be able to look Him in the face if I do not improve. I need to use the gifts He's given me to become better, and to help those around me. If I do not, I am a pathetic excuse for a man, and I would NEVER expect any such gift as salvation.

I feel as James. You tell me what He means to you, and I'll show you what He means to me.

Am I there yet? Of course not. I have resolved myself to the fact that I will not be in this lifetime. But, I desire it and pray for it, to be able to serve Him with all my might and strength. With an eternity to work on it, as long as I am willing to work on it, I can do it.

Matther 19:

25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

I don't take this to mean that God will have to do it for me since I cannot do it myself. I take this to mean that God will give me the strength and power to become a son of God. A lot of good that power is if I don't do something with it, or if I am unwilling to use it.

[Justice]

You know, if everything Christ said, taught, showed us, and did for us didn't convince you that you need to show love for others in order to be His disciple, or a son of God, then apparently His works weren't enough.

They were enough for me.

It's not about what sin we've committed in the past, it's about what we are becoming.

[mikbone]

I've been following this thread from a distance. It seems to have mutated from the original topic of differences between the kingdoms of heaven into a head butting Grace vs. Works. Seems like its about time for me to toss my hard head into the fray.

I grew up in Texas with a bunch of born again christians who kept on asking me if I was saved. I'd then have to have a semantic discussion with them about what the term saved actually denotes and then I would reply - Yes I have. They would then disagree with me and try to point out how I was not saved according to their defination. It was a complete waste of time.

Well im gonna try to bring the discussion of kingdoms of heaven and Grace vs. Works back together.

If your religion believes that heaven is a place where you rest from your labors and spend the rest of eternity glorifying God then you are absolutely correct in your declaration that we can only be saved by grace alone.

On the other hand... If your religion believes that heaven is a place where we will continue to progress and have the opportunity to be co-equal with God. Then Grace alone will NOT let you enter into the gates of that kingdom. Works are required to gain exaltation.

The problem with this thead is that most of us are talking about the Celestial Kingdom. Whereas some of us are talking about the Telestial Kingdom. Its all perspective.

[aj4u]

Does salvation come by grace, or grace alone, by grace without works? It surely does, without any question in all its parts, types, kinds, and degrees.

We are saved by grace, without works; it is a gift of God. How else could it come?

In his goodness and grace the great God ordained and established the plan of salvation. No works on our part were required.

In his goodness and grace he created this earth and all that is on it, with man as the crowning creature of his creating--without which creation his spirit children could not obtain immortality and eternal life. No works on our part were required.

In his goodness and grace he provided for the Fall of man, thus bringing mortality and death and a probationary estate into being--without all of which there would be no immortality and eternal life. And again no works on our part were required.

In his goodness and grace--and this above all--he gave his Only Begotten Son to ransom man and all life from the temporal and spiritual death brought into the world by the Fall of Adam.

He sent his Son to redeem mankind, to atone for the sins of the world, “to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39). And again all this comes to us as a free gift and without works.

There is nothing any man could do to create himself. This was the work of the Lord God.

Nor did we have any part in the Fall of man, without which there could be no salvation. The Lord provided the way, and Adam and Eve put the system into operation.

And finally, there neither has been, nor is, nor ever can be any way nor means by which man alone can, or any power he possesses, redeem himself.

We cannot resurrect ourselves anymore than we can create ourselves. We cannot create a heavenly abode for the Saints, nor make provision for the continuation of the family unit in eternity, nor bring salvation and exaltation into being. All these things are ordained and established by that God who is the Father of us all. And they all came into being and are made available to us, as free gifts, without works, because of the infinite goodness and grace of Him whose children we are.

Truly, there is no way to overstate the goodness and grandeurs and glories of the grace of God which bringeth salvation. Such wondrous love, such unending mercy, such infinite compassion and condescension--all these can come only from the Eternal God who lives in eternal life and who desires all of his children to live as he lives and be inheritors of eternal life. -Elder Bruce R McConkie

I guess that is a NO to the question.

[aj4u]

I've been following this thread from a distance. It seems to have mutated from the original topic of differences between the kingdoms of heaven into a head butting Grace vs. Works. Seems like its about time for me to toss my hard head into the fray.

I grew up in Texas with a bunch of born again christians who kept on asking me if I was saved. I'd then have to have a semantic discussion with them about what the term saved actually denotes and then I would reply - Yes I have. They would then disagree with me and try to point out how I was not saved according to their defination. It was a complete waste of time.

Well im gonna try to bring the discussion of kingdoms of heaven and Grace vs. Works back together.

If your religion believes that heaven is a place where you rest from your labors and spend the rest of eternity glorifying God then you are absolutely correct in your declaration that we can only be saved by grace alone.

On the other hand... If your religion believes that heaven is a place where we will continue to progress and have the opportunity to be co-equal with God. Then Grace alone will NOT let you enter into the gates of that kingdom. Works are required to gain exaltation.

The problem with this thead is that most of us are talking about the Celestial Kingdom. Whereas some of us are talking about the Telestial Kingdom. Its all perspective.

Okay, I am confused:huh:

[Justice]

The problem with this thead is that most of us are talking about the Celestial Kingdom. Whereas some of us are talking about the Telestial Kingdom. Its all perspective.

Even understanding the restoration part that comes with the resurrection helps understand this.

Alma 41:

1 And now, my son, I have somewhat to say concerning the restoration of which has been spoken; for behold, some have wrested the scriptures, and have gone far astray because of this thing. And I perceive that thy mind has been worried also concerning this thing. But behold, I will explain it unto thee.

2 I say unto thee, my son, that the plan of restoration is requisite with the justice of God; for it is requisite that all things should be restored to their proper order. Behold, it is requisite and just, according to the power and resurrection of Christ, that the soul of man should be restored to its body, and that every part of the body should be restored to itself.

3 And it is requisite with the justice of God that men should be judged according to their works; and if their works were good in this life, and the desires of their hearts were good, that they should also, at the last day, be restored unto that which is good.

4 And if their works are evil they shall be restored unto them for evil. Therefore, all things shall be restored to their proper order, every thing to its natural frame—mortality raised to immortality, corruption to incorruption—raised to endless happiness to inherit the kingdom of God, or to endless misery to inherit the kingdom of the devil, the one on one hand, the other on the other—

5 The one raised to happiness according to his desires of happiness, or good according to his desires of good; and the other to evil according to his desires of evil; for as he has desired to do evil all the day long even so shall he have his reward of evil when the night cometh.

6 And so it is on the other hand. If he hath repented of his sins, and desired righteousness until the end of his days, even so he shall be rewarded unto righteousness.

7 These are they that are redeemed of the Lord; yea, these are they that are taken out, that are delivered from that endless night of darkness; and thus they stand or fall; for behold, they are their own judges, whether to do good or do evil.

8 Now, the decrees of God are unalterable; therefore, the way is prepared that whosoever will may walk therein and be saved.

9 And now behold, my son, do not risk one more offense against your God upon those points of doctrine, which ye have hitherto risked to commit sin.

10 Do not suppose, because it has been spoken concerning restoration, that ye shall be restored from sin to happiness. Behold, I say unto you, wickedness never was happiness.

A close study of these scriptures ends the discussion.

How can we expect to be happy unless we are striving to be righteous? Is there happiness in wickedness?

I like the part "they are their own judges whether to do good or evil."

I also like "the way is prepared that whosoever will may walk therein and be saved."

The way is Christ, and His works are complete (the way is prepared). But, He will force no man to walk the straight and narrow path. But, He will help all who are willing and attempt to cross it. With His help, and only with his help, is walking the path possible. But, if you don't pick up one foot and put it in front of the other you won't make it, because He will not shove you across the path. Faith requires that we take steps. When we fall, He'll help us get up and get back on the path, but He will not force us to get up, nor will He put us on the path against our will.

Edited May 10, 2009 by Justice

[aj4u]

I've been out of town all day visiting my mom for Mother's Day tomorrow, since I can't tomorrow because I have been asked to teach a class at church. I just got back. Sorry it took so long to respond. I really couldn't afford to be gone that long, I have lots to do... but again, I couldn't afford to not go see my mom on Mother's Day. She's the only one I have and her health is slowly dropping. Also, sorry that I posted before reading everything. I see you responded to my previous post and I did not see it.

Sorry to hear that about your mom. I hope she feels better soon. I'll pray for her.

[aj4u]

This is an unfair question. You changed subjects mid-stream and therefore asked a leading question. Then, you give me only yes and no options.

I don't believe being "saved" and obtaining "salvation" are the same things, yet you used them in the same sentence while implying they are the same.

So, to being saved, yes, Christ's works in Gethsemane (don't forget the atonement) and on Golgotha (crucifixion and death) and in the Garden Tomb (don't forget the resurrection) is enough to save all mankind from the effects of the fall. This is unconditional to all who have been and ever will be born on earth.

Do you believe immortality and eternal life are the same things?

The above grants us immortality. What about eternal life or salvation? Salvation or exaltation is more than to just exist forever. Those in the lake of fire will exist forever. Is salvation better than the lake of fire?

The Gospel of Jesus Christ demands that at the very least we believe in Him, regardless of what you think that means. If you believe in Him you gain eternal life, if you do not, then all you are guaranteed of is immortality. So, this mean yes, there is something you must do: believe in Him, because not believing in Him does not bring salvation.

What about that scripture in John you quoted about the power that Christ gives us, or the gift, as an enabling power, does it not mean that it enables us to become something that we cannot become on our own? Or, do you interpret that He will give us the power to become, and then also do the becoming for us?

Unfair:o I am just trying to pin something down so we can tell what we are debating about or discussing. You see it is going to be very difficult because of the terminology block. I see salvation and being saved or having eternal life or being written in The Lamb's Book of Life or entering into the joy of the Lord as, well, being synonymous with each other and you don't. I’ll can try to make the question fair and consistent in terms for you if it helps such as the following: Do you believe that Christ's death and shed blood on the cross is sufficient for our salvation apart from human effort? Moreover, do we need to work for salvation using our own strength and best efforts to complete the salvation gift for us? Your answer to these questions will clear everything up for me as to where we both stand. As I mentioned simple yes or no response will do, but feel free to elaborate if you must. It looks like I have turned it into two questions. Edited May 10, 2009 by aj4u

[Justice]

After we expend our own best efforts He completes salvation.

You asked about salvation or exaltation. We must, at the very least, repent and believe in Him to gain salvation. Does repenting and believing in Him earn us salvation? No, the redeeming works are His alone. But, He requires certain efforts from His believers. Our best efforts are to repent and believe in Him. He consecrates our efforts for our gain.

I think our difficulty is in terms.

Believe

Faith

We hold different views on what these mean.

[Justice]

Let me ask you this.

Did He perform the redeeming works for all mankind?

Or, are there any that cannot be saved through His works?

[aj4u]

After we expend our own best efforts He completes salvation.

You asked about salvation or exaltation. We must, at the very least, repent and believe in Him to gain salvation. Does repenting and believing in Him earn us salvation? No, the redeeming works are His alone. But, He requires certain efforts from His believers. Our best efforts are to repent and believe in Him. He consecrates our efforts for our gain.

I think our difficulty is in terms.

Believe

Faith

We hold different views on what these mean.

First of all don't bring in terms I didn't mention such as exaltation. I said the salvation of our souls. You have just contradicted yourself in the second and fourth sentence. Make up your mind. No wonder you are so hard to pin down. You change your answers just when we are getting warm. You asked this question: "Does repenting and believing in Him earn us salvation?" Your answer was no, but you lead me to believe there is something we can do to earn it. What is it we can do to earn it since you said that repentence and believing does not? Are you saying we need to expend our own best efforts to earn it, and then He completes salvation for us?

Believe = to take in

Faith = evidence of the unseen and substance of things hoped for

What if we try, but our efforts are not successful?

Edited May 10, 2009 by aj4u

[aj4u]

Let me ask you this.

Did He perform the redeeming works for all mankind?

Or, are there any that cannot be saved through His works?

"Did He perform the redeeming works for all mankind?" Yes

"Or, are there any that cannot be saved through His works?" No

These questions really don't make sense. You put an "or" in there as if they were the same question asked in another way, but they require two different answers. I don't know where you are getting all this stuff from. It is written, "God is not the author of confusion.... Beware, lest any lead you away from the simplicity that is in Christ Jesus."

Edited May 10, 2009 by aj4u

[Justice]

We've hijacked this thread long enough... making a new one.

[aj4u]

We've hijacked this thread long enough... making a new one.

I don't know how to start a new thread.

[Justice]

That's OK, I made one. :)