Looking for realistic advice

[lusciouschaos]

I have a dear friend who has been in a committed homosexual relationship for 5 years. Yesterday she talked to me about how she would like to attend church with her partner to feel the Spirit and sing the hymns. She reiterated that she has always had a strong testimony of the truthfulness of the First Vision but after trying everything she could, she couldn't deny her same sex attraction.

I am not looking for advice on how to help her change her mind. She knows what the scriptures say. I am wondering if any of you know a gay couple who attends a ward together?

Better to recommend attending separately? My friend is not intending to change their lifestyle but her spirit is hungering for gospel messages.

I told her she is welcome to attend with me and my family anytime. However, the pragmatist in me knows that once she is there and if her situation is known, many will descend on her focusing only on this aspect of her behavior.

I was clear yesterday about my own beliefs but underscored that I know and love her heart and recognize the great goodness therein. I even had a sense that she must be a particularly strong and loving spirit to have the attention from Satan that she is receiving with regard to deluding her into believing that there is no other way for her.

Thoughts?

[FairChild]

What a wonderful and loving friend you are. We all have something we are struggling with. No one is perfected yet, Christ not included in that statement. Just love her.

[marshac]

My brother is gay and has been in a relationship for about 3 years now- the ostracizing is probably the #1 reason he does not attend church of any sort. I believe HF loves him just as much as he loves me even though he might not like all of the choices he makes... for church to become such a seemingly hostile environment that he would rather not go at all makes me sad. It's too bad more people can't be like you FairChild- being able to look past the sin and love the person regardless.

[lusciouschaos]

My brother is gay and has been in a relationship for about 3 years now- the ostracizing is probably the #1 reason he does not attend church of any sort.

Has he considered attending another church? My friend has tried a few but misses the church of her youth. She can't seem to find a home.

[Guest Alana]

I encourage you to bring you friend. Together would be fine, in my opinion. When my boyfriend and I were living together, when we decided to go back to church, of course we went together. The living arraignments were a topic of discussion with the bishop in private councel, but as far as everyone else when I was introduced to them it wasn't as though I'd say "Hi, I'm Alana, I'm having premarital sex with my boyfriend, and how are you?" I would imagine it would be the same with your friend, her relationship doesn't need to be hidden nor flaunted. If it does come up, then so what, if someone has a big problem with it, I'm sure they aren't perfect either.

I think it would be appropriate to mention this your friend to your bishop, he might have something helpful to say.

I guess I'm saying I don't find it inappropriate in any way for your friend and her girlfriend to attend church together. We all have different things going on. Some are more noticeable to others than other, but what it all comes down to is that we aren't perfect and we come to church to be edified by the spirit and hopefully each other.

[lusciouschaos]

I guess I'm saying I don't find it inappropriate in any way for your friend and her girlfriend to attend church together. We all have different things going on. Some are more noticeable to others than other, but what it all comes down to is that we aren't perfect and we come to church to be edified by the spirit and hopefully each other.

I know this isn't PC but would it make a difference if two gay men attended together?

[applepansy]

I think you're a great friend.

I would be clear to her and her partner (if they are attending together) about behavior that might upset other members of the ward. Unfortunately, if they openly held hands or whatever I'm sure someone would get upset. Then the spirit will move away. I'm not saying getting upset in Sacrament meeting is right, its not...but somebody probably will.

Two of the men from the alcoholics camp were gay and they attended church with us. But they didn't have a partner with them. There were no issues and they were openly welcomed.

I think it will depend on how you present your friends and how they present themselves....which you all have control of. I also believe it will be good for her to fill that sense of "home" she's looking for.

Best wishes,

applepansy

[Guest Alana]

I know this isn't PC but would it make a difference if two gay men attended together?

I don't see how it would. In a lot of ways to myself though, it doesn't make that much difference if it's two guys, two gals, or a guy and a gal. At least not in a way that needs my judgment. The church is not in favor of a homosexual lifestyle, so peoples judgments will be influenced by that. Also, seeing same sex couples isn't as common, and people are often uncomfortable by things that are different. This may or may not play into the dynamics of your friends coming to church. I would hope that it doesn't. I live in an area where there are few who can be considered 'cookie cutter mormons,' even amongst the members. There are open arms and love and sincere affection for those in are ward who aren't usually what you think of as the standard mormon. This what the goal is, right? Loving, non-judgmental, Christ like. I say give the members of your ward a chance to let their lights shine:)

[Vort]

I am wondering if any of you know a gay couple who attends a ward together?

I do not. Not an LDS church, anyway.

Better to recommend attending separately? My friend is not intending to change their lifestyle but her spirit is hungering for gospel messages...Thoughts?

If my friend who smokes wanted to come to Church. he would be welcome, but I would tell him that he needed not to smoke at Church. If my friend who cursed constantly wanted to come to Church, he would be welcome, but I would likewise mention that harsh language was out of place. If my drug addict friend wanted to come to Church, he would be welcome, but I would expect him not to talk about the glories of his drug usage or model such behavior at Church, especially in front of children. Common sense, really.

Likewise, if a practicing homosexual friend wanted to come to Church, he (or she) would be welcome, but would need to understand that modeling or flaunting unseemly behavior was really not acceptable. If he (she) was truly interested in coming to Church, then doubtless he (or she) would happily avoid any homosexual activities or behaviors. If he (she) could not resist this and insisted (for example) on holding hands with or kissing his (her) "partner" or making pro-homosexuality comments in a class meeting, then I would take that as prima facie evidence that he (she) wasn't really interested in attending Church and enjoying the fellowship of the Saints.

[rameumptom]

Have her speak to the bishop regarding what he expects for her to attend. I imagine they would not be able to attend as a couple, nor speak out in favor of their lifestyle in any meetings.

This would be the same as asking an addict to not come to church stoned, or encouraging anyone else to sample the lifestyle he had chosen.

[FunkyTown]

Affirmation: Gay & Lesbian Mormons

There can and might be consequences to being openly gay in your ward. I've heard of people in some of the San Francisco wards that are out and open with few to no consequences and this particular news article suggests that people could come out at church without fear of repercussion.

However, know that excommunication or no, any action taken would be taken out of love. They really are inspired men and women who run the church. If your friend wants to attend, I would be willing and able to love them just as I would be willing and able to love anyone else in the ward: Warts and all, we're all children of God. I would worry for their eternal well being, certainly. I don't know what will become if they come to church. I'm certain if they came in humility, recognizing their own weaknesses, that they will be okay. On the other hand, many people find it very difficult to be humble in the situation you're describing.

I hope everything works out for them.

[Jamie123]

I do not. Not an LDS church, anyway.

If my friend who smokes wanted to come to Church. he would be welcome, but I would tell him that he needed not to smoke at Church. If my friend who cursed constantly wanted to come to Church, he would be welcome, but I would likewise mention that harsh language was out of place. If my drug addict friend wanted to come to Church, he would be welcome, but I would expect him not to talk about the glories of his drug usage or model such behavior at Church, especially in front of children. Common sense, really.

Likewise, if a practicing homosexual friend wanted to come to Church, he (or she) would be welcome, but would need to understand that modeling or flaunting unseemly behavior was really not acceptable. If he (she) was truly interested in coming to Church, then doubtless he (or she) would happily avoid any homosexual activities or behaviors. If he (she) could not resist this and insisted (for example) on holding hands with or kissing his (her) "partner" or making pro-homosexuality comments in a class meeting, then I would take that as prima facie evidence that he (she) wasn't really interested in attending Church and enjoying the fellowship of the Saints.

I'm sure he (or she) will be very pleased to hear that!

[NeuroTypical]

She reiterated that she has always had a strong testimony of the truthfulness of the First Vision but after trying everything she could, she couldn't deny her same sex attraction.

It's a painful and spiritually stunting way of thinking, gay or no gay.

"I know it's true, but I just can't get past my [hormones / urges / baggage / denial / lust / pain / addiction / anger / apathy / easily offended nature / fear / ignorance / ego / pride]"

We figure the way to help every single one of these issues is to fix or learn to control the issue. Except for the gay issue - we want to fix that one by asking the church and everyone in it, to change to accept our issue.

So, I think about someone with a testimony, but locked in the grips of failure to forgive some past offense. These are the gossips, the manipulators, the tale-bearers. They won't rest until the entire world knows what the offender did, and judges them as harshly as the person does. If I can't help someone like this, I'll steer clear of them. If they start disrupting my church experience, I'll make a bit stink about it.

I think about the person struggling to forgive, who comes to worship and gain strength in fellowship. I'm happy to welcome them as my brother/sister.

I think about the person who committed adultury, left his wife and kids, and wants to come to church with the new shack-up honey. I will go sit with the wife and kids.

I think about the person whose marriage broke up, and he's trying to do what's best by his ex-wife, and be the best father he can. This person is welcome in my home - I'm sure he could tell some tales about past mistakes that would help my kids not make the same ones.

I think about the person who's testimony has been rocked by some church criticism. Suddenly, they can't keep their mouths shut in Elder's quorum. Every conversation they have, they feel the need to bring attention to this or that attack. They're heading to the microphone on Fast Sunday for their 5 minutes of captive audience - I would probably take my family and leave.

So yeah, I think about the openly gay couple, flaunting rebellion to some of the church's highest moral teachings - the importance of the family unit, the law of chastity, and the commandment to rise above the natural man. I'm not big on exposing my kids to these folks in church.

Then I think about the two ladies who come to church and sit together. I'm likely to not have a problem at all.

LM

[Saguaro]

Have her speak to the bishop regarding what he expects for her to attend. I imagine they would not be able to attend as a couple, nor speak out in favor of their lifestyle in any meetings.

This would be the same as asking an addict to not come to church stoned, or encouraging anyone else to sample the lifestyle he had chosen.

I don't follow your logic. Why would they not be able to attend as a couple? How do you define that? If two women walk in the door, or two men walk in the door, does that make them a same sex couple and ineligible to attend? Do we screen people at the door to make sure they're not attending as a gay couple? Anyone who wants to attend church should be able to, whether they're gay or straight, alone or together, as long as they're respectful of the others in attendance.

The coming to church stoned analogy doesn't make sense either, are you saying that coming to church "gay" is the same as coming to church stoned???

[rameumptom]

I don't follow your logic. Why would they not be able to attend as a couple? How do you define that? If two women walk in the door, or two men walk in the door, does that make them a same sex couple and ineligible to attend? Do we screen people at the door to make sure they're not attending as a gay couple? Anyone who wants to attend church should be able to, whether they're gay or straight, alone or together, as long as they're respectful of the others in attendance.

The coming to church stoned analogy doesn't make sense either, are you saying that coming to church "gay" is the same as coming to church stoned???

To enter as friends is one thing. To enter as a couple is another thing. And if they are a gay couple, guess what? To enter as "friends" would be deceptive and not honest. The requirements of the Church is to teach repentance and obedience. The bishop is going to encourage them to live a chaste life, even if they have attractions. This includes reducing the relationship to a friendship, and not a sexual/marriage-like relationship (which will just engender more of the feelings).

I'm saying we encourage people with drug or alcohol problems to attend Church. However, we do not encourage them to attend stoned. In the same vein, we encourage those with same sex attraction issues to attend, just not as a couple holding hands and kissing in the foyer.

Many people, in fact, most people have genetic dispositions towards certain things. Some are disposed towards drugs, some towards gambling, some towards sex (either heterosexual or homosexual), etc. All of these addictions or desires that go against the Lord's celestial order of things.

[TruthSeekerToo]

Closest my ward has come to this is a transgendered woman. She came often and people were nice. Most people don't even know. I haven't seen her in awhile, though, I should find out what happened...

I'm sure every ward will react differently. I'm sure a few in my ward would react negatively just based on comments that have been made in the past. So, I think she should be prepared to face some criticism...JMHO

Oh, we also have a couple people who go out and smoke at church. They are still welcome. We do try to discourage them from doing it on church property, though.

Church is a hospital for sinners!!!

[the Ogre]

I am wondering if any of you know a gay couple who attends a ward together?

I have a friend who is gay, active, and celibate. We commiserate each other on loneliness on a regular basis. He is temple endowed and an RM, but can't see himself in a relationship with a woman. He does not feel it would be appropriate (whatever that means). There have been a few problems in his ward. He has been accused of being a pervert and pedophile (neither true), but he still goes. He loves church a lot.

Would there be problems for your friends? I think so. I'm straight, but single and so am viewed with suspicion by some and animosity by others.

Should they go? Yes, and with you. They need someone who will be there to love them. If eventually they feel the need to make a change, then they will. If they never do, G-d still loves them and the church welcomes everyone. Everyone!!!

I am glad you are there to support your friends, I hope everything works out.

Edited May 6, 2009 by the Ogre

[bytebear]

Some comments about comparing a gay couple to a man who brings his "shack up honey" (Too much Dr. Laura?). I think a gay couple is far less sinful than a man who took vows and not only broke them, but injured and destroyed a family in the process. Most gay Latter-day Saints know that they are sacrificing an eternal family for an Earthly relationship, and that decision is a very personal one, and is not anyone elses business, honestly. Welcome anyone and everyone to church.

When I was in the Cambridge Mass singles ward, we had a potluck dinner after every service, because so many singles came from so far away, and it was a way to socialize. Well, at some point the homeless around the area caught wind of the free food, and rather than turn away the poor, the church simply asked them to stay for services before having their meal. It made for some very interesting priesthood meetings.

The point is, we didn't turn anyone away. And we shoudn't. Everyone is welcome to church, with the goal to prepare for the temple. and not everyone is going to make it to the temple, but that's ok. We shouldn't shun people from church just because they could not get to the temple right now. If we did that, half the church would be empty.

Finally, when discussing homosexuality, just know that there are lots of different sins out there, and just because this is one that is making headlines, doesn't mean you are any better in your life. I find it interesting that not only is the following message in two of the four gospels, but it was repeated to the Nephites when Christ visited them. It must be pretty important.

Matt. 7: 3-5

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

Luke 6: 41-42

41 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

42 Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother’s eye.

3 Ne. 14: 3-5

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother: Let me pull the mote out of thine eye—and behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

[TruthSeekerToo]

You might also be interested in this blog: Gay LDS Actor

It might give a helpful perspective on what it is like for one person going through this.

[Moksha]

There needs to be someone to minister to the spiritual needs of Homosexuals. To quote the famous saying by Rabbi Hillel, "If not me, then who?".

If not We the LDS Church, then who?

:confused:

[the Ogre]

It's a painful and spiritually stunting way of thinking, gay or no gay.

Binaries always are. Not only stunting but insulting to the intelligence of the person who insists on thinking this way.

"I know it's true, but I just can't get past my [hormones / urges / baggage / denial / lust / pain / addiction / anger / apathy / easily offended nature / fear / ignorance / ego / pride]"

I am glad sarcasm is alive and well, by saying this I'm sure you recognize nothing is as simple as this line of reasoning.

We figure the way to help every single one of these issues is to fix or learn to control the issue. Except for the gay issue - we want to fix that one by asking the church and everyone in it, to change to accept our issue.

I don't think the church has changed its message. Secular-society certainly has. I think it is wrong to discriminate against anyone (I have issues with stupid people, but I'm working on it).

The myth is that being gay is permanent. This is obviously not true, but it easier to think this was. I was watching some Fred W. Phelps footage last night on YouTube and he is of the opinion that homosexuality is the unforgivable sin. As Latter-day Saints, we know this is not true. There is only one unforgivable and being gay is not it.

I think about the person who committed adultury, left his wife and kids, and wants to come to church with the new shack-up honey. I will go sit with the wife and kids.

I think the key similarity between the two cases is sexual sin, but if you are not their bishop or stake-president, I don't see how it is you business even if you want to protect your children. There is a pedophile in my stake. He was released from prison years ago, but still is the recipient of hatred and shunning in the community. He still goes to church. He, like every one of us is welcome in church, but then again, it is no ones business what he did and who he did it too. I know because of gossip and invective directed towards him in the foyers. If all you want to do is relive the sins of others, then you need some bishop conversation as well.

The next thing to do is tell your kids it is no one's business except the bishop's. This is not condoning homosexuality, it is an attempt at a cure for homophobia.

Obviously, one's sexual preference is no-one's business unless the person in question makes it so and even then we, as Latter-day Saints, can not exclude them from sabbath worship (I think the acceptable exception is if they are making out in the pew, but then that is a problem for heterosexuals as well. I don't want to see two people making out in church).

[the Ogre]

There needs to be someone to minister to the spiritual needs of Homosexuals. To quote the famous saying by Rabbi Hillel, "If not me, then who?".

If not We the LDS Church, then who?

:confused:

Moksha, I love you.

[Dravin]

As Latter-day Saints, we know this is not true. There is only one unforgivable and being gay is not it.

Being gay isn't even a sin. Its acting/dwelling* on those desires that crosses a line, simply having them, not so much.

* I'm thinking the whole look upon another to lust angle, though one might consider that an action.

[beefche]

Back to the op, here are my thoughts.

I would tell them what to expect...people will ask where their husbands are, how many kids, aren't they married (to men of course), looks of shock when they figure out/told about them being gay, talks on marriage between man/woman, talks on traditional families, teachings that homosexuality is wrong. Other things to expect, missionaries hitting on them to set up teaching appts, people being nice to them, being invited to activities, getting asked to help with meetings or participate.

I would also tell them that they would be expected to probably feel uncomfortable at first or at times. Although public displays of affection (such as hand holding, arms around each other ,etc) is appropriate and non-offensive in the world, such things at church may be offensive to a few.

Just be honest with her. I say she and her partner should be welcome to church. I would welcome her to RS and make sure she's invited to activities.

You might even give a heads up to certain people--RS pres, bishop, close friends--to welcome them. I've done that before with non-member friends I've brought to church.

[bytebear]

Back to the op, here are my thoughts.

I would tell them what to expect...people will ask where their husbands are, how many kids, aren't they married (to men of course), looks of shock when they figure out/told about them being gay, talks on marriage between man/woman, talks on traditional families, teachings that homosexuality is wrong. Other things to expect, missionaries hitting on them to set up teaching appts, people being nice to them, being invited to activities, getting asked to help with meetings or participate.

I would also tell them that they would be expected to probably feel uncomfortable at first or at times. Although public displays of affection (such as hand holding, arms around each other ,etc) is appropriate and non-offensive in the world, such things at church may be offensive to a few.

Just be honest with her. I say she and her partner should be welcome to church. I would welcome her to RS and make sure she's invited to activities.

You might even give a heads up to certain people--RS pres, bishop, close friends--to welcome them. I've done that before with non-member friends I've brought to church.

In other words, all the things gay folks have to deal with every day.