A question about temples. The work and the glory.

[Lost_one]

Im not sure if this is in the correct place.

I sat down with my family the other day and watched all three DVD's of the work and the glory. One thing that really stood out for me was when the members started fighting in the meeting house, which was inside the Kirtland Temple. Basicly there was actual violence and someone even shot a pistol.

Although there was no bloodshed and even though this happened in the meeting house part of the Temple, would the Temple need to be rededicated after something like this?

Ive heard a story that some cigarette butt's were found in a Temple restroom and that, that temple had to be rededicated. If that was true, wouldnt fighting and actually firing a weapon in Gods house be far worse?

What type of things would cause a Temple to need rededicating?

[pam]

When a temple is closed for renovation or remodeling..it is usually rededicated.

[tubaloth]

Im not sure if this is in the correct place.

I sat down with my family the other day and watched all three DVD's of the work and the glory. One thing that really stood out for me was when the members started fighting in the meeting house, which was inside the Kirtland Temple. Basicly there was actual violence and someone even shot a pistol.

Although there was no bloodshed and even though this happened in the meeting house part of the Temple, would the Temple need to be rededicated after something like this?

Ive heard a story that some cigarette butt's were found in a Temple restroom and that, that temple had to be rededicated. If that was true, wouldnt fighting and actually firing a weapon in Gods house be far worse?

What type of things would cause a Temple to need rededicating?

The Kirtland Temple wasn't really a Normal temple in the way we use temples now. There was no work for the dead done in the Kirtland temple. The main purpose of the Kirtland temple was so Joseph Smith could get the keys to really do temple work. So the main use of the temple was as a meeting house.

Really now days for a rededication to take place the temple has to have a pretty major renovation. I know they told us during the Bountiful Open house, that even after the open house and dedication, they take out all the carpet and put new ones in. I have heard they even do this from time to time and some basic maintenance.

I think its more when the time comes they decided to close it down for maintenance and then offer an open house. Once its back open to the public a rededication would need to take place.

[Lost_one]

The main purpose of the Kirtland temple was so Joseph Smith could get the keys to really do temple work. So the main use of the temple was as a meeting house.

Ok, so that explains why non-members seemed to be able to walk around inside. How did the Kirtland Temple help Joseph Smith get the keys for Temple work?

Sorry for asking so many questions about Temples. Im really not trying to be offensive. I guess Im just missing the ability to go to one directly. I think thats pretty much the hardest part of being excommunicated. If only non-members could understand the spirit within them. After being there the first time, leaving it to go home was the hardest thing Ive ever had to do. Nothing on earth could match it.

[pam]

I may be wrong and please someone correct me if I'm wrong..but the Kirtland Temple was the first temple constructed in these Latter Days. The receiving of the keys could only be done in the temple that's why the urgency of the Lord to get the temple done.

[HiJolly]

I may be wrong and please someone correct me if I'm wrong..but the Kirtland Temple was the first temple constructed in these Latter Days. The receiving of the keys could only be done in the temple that's why the urgency of the Lord to get the temple done.

Yes, I think so.

The D&C has many instances where the Lord encourages the Saints to "get 'er done", promising many blessings and keys that can only be given there. One of these is the Patriarchal Priesthood, which isn't talked about much anymore. Another is the "priesthood keys of asking and receiving".

Of interest to me was that according to the early Christian Fathers, the last of the temple ordinances in their day were the washings and annointings. The remnants of these are still seen in the Catholic Church and in the 'setting apart' rituals of european royalty.

Washings and annointings were the first temple ordinances to re-appear, and that occurred in the Kirtland Temple.

HiJolly

[NeuroTypical]

Ive heard a story that some cigarette butt's were found in a Temple restroom and that, that temple had to be rededicated.

I hadn't heard that one before - sounds like an urban legend. Surely, sinners already enter temples, because we're all sinners. Also, people who aren't currently "up to snuff" on the worthiness questions enter temples, and not all of those sins leave a cigarette butt behind...

LM

[TruthSeekerToo]

The Kirtland Temple was defiled, like you've mentioned. A huge apostacy occured at that time in LDS history. I think that it was even used for animals at one point.

The Kirtland Temple was awesome. The saints were "endowed with power from on high." There was a great pouring out of the spirit and they experienced "a time of pentacost." I believe that the Kirtland Temple was one of the most important temples ever built.

I'm sure when it was remodeled it would have been rededicated (by the RLDS church).

[Lost_one]

I'm sure when it was remodeled it would have been rededicated (by the RLDS church).

Wasnt the Kirtland Temple burnt to the ground? Or am i thinking of a differant one?

[TruthSeekerToo]

Wasnt the Kirtland Temple burnt to the ground? Or am i thinking of a differant one?

The Nauvoo Temple had 2 fires and was leveled by a tornado (all but one wall I think). The stones were taken away to be used in other homes and buildings in the area.......at least that is what I remember from my reading.

[Misshalfway]

Wasnt the Kirtland Temple burnt to the ground? Or am i thinking of a differant one?

No. The Kirtland Temple is still standing. You can go and take a tour. The Re-Organized church owns it. As was said already, the Nauvoo temple was burned to the ground. It has, though, been rebuilt very recently and is now a functioning LDS temple.

The Kirtland temple, however, was taken over by our enemies and I believe I was told that at one point it was used as a barn. It has been restored to its original state, but is only used now as a historical visitors site.

And just to weigh in on the rest......

I was of the understanding that there was arguing in the temple that day and a gun was drawn, but I wasn't told that it was actually fired. And I have never ever heard of the cigarette butts story.

I think you have to remember that the early Saints were in the middle of a huge learning curve. They had lots to absorb, and even more to do with their new found spiritual knowledge. I sometimes look at the Kirtland temple....and even the days spent in and around Kirtland as a training ground for the Saints. And I wonder at the patience of the Lord as he allowed them to struggle in learning their lessons.

One more thought....temples can always be re-dedicated. Heck.....a terrorist could walk into the temple today and take it hostage. And even that could be fixed by blessing the space again. I don't suppose there is a limit on the Lord's ability to restore things.

[tubaloth]

How did the Kirtland Temple help Joseph Smith get the keys for Temple work?

I wouldn't really say Help, as much as give him a Place to get the keys. In scriptures prophets would go up into moutains as there temple. For Joseph Smith the Lord wanted him to build a house where you can get the keys. Thus the Kirtland Temple.

Ok, so that explains why non-members seemed to be able to walk around inside.

It was still a House of the Lord, so I don't know if they let non-members come in. But could be.

[bytebear]

I thought I would share the Doctrine and Covenant section that covers the dedication and acceptance by the Lord for his Temple. It is such an amazing event, that it is worth sharing here. By the way, there are newspaper articles of the time that say that even the surrounding non-Mormon neighbors saw visions of angels and heavanly hosts around and atop the temple. It is considered the Latter-day petacost.

1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.

2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.

3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:

4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.

5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.

6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.

7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.

8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.

9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.

10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.

11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.

12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.

13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:

14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi—testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come—

15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse—

16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.

Doctrine and Covenants, Section 110

[Lost_one]

It was still a House of the Lord, so I don't know if they let non-members come in. But could be.

Im only taking this from 'the work and the glory'. Ben Steed was not a member of the church, yet was able to walk around inside the meeting house part of the temple and was even allowed to sit in on meetings where the Prophet spoke. Im aware that this may have just been poetic license, But i just felt it was strange.

[TruthSeekerToo]

The Kirtland Temple was open to all. It was a house of worship, learning and ordinances. I believe the solomn assembly(s) for the brethren was by invitation-members only.

Weddings were public. The School of the Prophets was held there.

This is the ceremony that took place in Kirtland:

Washing with soap and water

Washing with water and perfumed whiskey

Consecration with oil and receiving blessing

Blessing sealed

Washing of faces and feet and partaking of the Lord's Supper

It appears that baptisms for the dead may have also been performed here. I'm not sure if that was in the temple or in rivers. However, if the apostacy hadn't taken place leaving the temple defiled we can safely guess that they would have continued in a font in the temple.

[Lost_one]

However, if the apostacy hadn't taken place leaving the temple defiled we can safely guess that they would have continued in a font in the temple.

Again, sorry for asking so many questions, But what apostacy? Ive never heard about this before. I know there were some break away sects after the Prophets death, But i wouldnt exactly call it an apostacy. Are you saying that the Priesthood was taken away for a time or is it something else? Priesthood authority being taken away is always what i think about when the word apostacy is used. Please forgive my ignorance. Thats why i ask so many questions. Thank you everyone for being so patient with me.

[TruthSeekerToo]

About 50% of the leaders of the Church apostatized (left the "main body" of the church) at this time in our history. One group actually excommunicated the prophet Joseph and Sidney Rigdon. Obviously, it all depends on whose perspective you look at it from. Either way, it was a big deal and qualifies as an apostacy.

Don't worry about questions! Questions are good. This is stuff beyond the scope of Gospel Doctrine class.

ETA: You're thinking of the "great apostacy" that we believed happened after the time of Christ-after the death of all the apostles.

Edited May 7, 2009 by TruthSeekerToo

[Lost_one]

About 50% of the leaders of the Church apostatized (left the "main body" of the church) at this time in our history. One group actually excommunicated the prophet Joseph and Sidney Rigdon. Obviously, it all depends on whose perspective you look at it from. Either way, it was a big deal and qualifies as an apostacy.

Don't worry about questions! Questions are good. This is stuff beyond the scope of Gospel Doctrine class.

ETA: You're thinking of the "great apostacy" that we believed happened after the time of Christ-after the death of all the apostles.

Yes the great apostacy is what i was thinking about.

Did these apostate members come back to the church? I might be a bit dumb here, But how could members, even leaders in the church excommunicate the prophet? He is THE prophet.

[Dravin]

Yes the great apostacy is what i was thinking about.

Did these apostate members come back to the church? I might be a bit dumb here, But how could members, even leaders in the church excommunicate the prophet? He is THE prophet.

They disagree and say he doesn't have that authority, he's fallen and wallah a line of succession type thing gets going and they excommunicate him. Its kind like how there was a point in time when there was more than one Pope and they started excommunicating each other. All you have to do is say, "You aren't the real one I am, and you can't excommunicate me, I excommunicate you!" Obviously only one would hold the authority but both/all of them can claim they excommunicated the other.

[Hemidakota]

Im not sure if this is in the correct place.

I sat down with my family the other day and watched all three DVD's of the work and the glory. One thing that really stood out for me was when the members started fighting in the meeting house, which was inside the Kirtland Temple. Basicly there was actual violence and someone even shot a pistol.

Although there was no bloodshed and even though this happened in the meeting house part of the Temple, would the Temple need to be rededicated after something like this?

Ive heard a story that some cigarette butt's were found in a Temple restroom and that, that temple had to be rededicated. If that was true, wouldnt fighting and actually firing a weapon in Gods house be far worse?

What type of things would cause a Temple to need rededicating?

Nothing better than to read it first hand on what did transpired during that day when the apostates took control of the Kirkland Temple. Count the number of Apostles who were involved.

Biography and Family Record of ... - Google Book Search

[bytebear]

The Kirkland temple, I believe, was a preparatory temple. It was designed to reveal the further ordinances of the temple, but was not designed for them. It has no basement, and no baptismal font. Baptism for the Dead was revealed after the completion of the temple, and were performed in rivers or lakes until the Nauvoo temple was built. Interestingly enough, the meeting areas of both temples were designed with curtans that could be pulled to create sub rooms in the main chaimber. The building was built with two sets of pulpets, one for the Melc. Priesthood and the other for the Aaronic, and the benches could reverse their backs, to face either of the pulpets. The Nauvoo had the same set up, as does the Salt Lake temple, and many of the earlier temples. The Los Angeles Temple is the last one to be built with an assembly hall.

It wasn't until the move to Salt Lake, when the saints began building tabernacles and later chapels for regular worship. The prarie saints met in homes or outdoors, or they met in the first floor of the temple. The best comparison today is the New York City temple which has the baptimsmal font in the basement, then mission and stake offices on the first floor. The second floor is a regular meeting house open to all, and the upper floors are for temple ordinances.

[Hemidakota]

The Kirkland Temple was a true temple. Read the dedicatory prayer by Joseph Smith and the amount of visitation of not only by the Godhead but others to those within the walls. To add some creditability, wasn't it the Lord that provide the plans on how to build the temple by revelations? I think so...

Read Doctrine and Covenants 109

Now what can be said after this bad situation what was published about the temple....

The St. Louis Luminary (February 17, 1855) published an article containing this information;

We called at Kirtland—found some tolerably good Saints considering circumstances, and many apostates. They have all become "rappers" and deny the Christ. They have taken possession of the Temple, and they are no better off than thieves and robbers.

In December, 1882, the Contributor told of Richard W. Young's then recent visit to Kirtland. Since the key to the temple could not be found, Elder Young and his companions were obliged to take turns standing on each other's shoulders and looking through the broken windows of the despoiled building. We read:

We found the interior preserved in much the same order as described by veteran Saints, and saw above on the ceiling of the main room the wires along which the curtains used to slide. The lower one of the three pulpits was strangely decorated with a few of the paraphernalia of a Protestant church, and held an open Bible. The building is in poor repair; much of the interior woodwork has been taken away for firewood, and the sashes contain more broken than undamaged panes of glass. Paint it has not seen for a generation at least.

And thus the Kirtland Temple suffered abuse for nearly half a century. In 1880, the Reorganized Church became interested in restoring it as nearly as possible to its original simplicity and beauty. They have spent a great sum of money for this purpose.

Though its present owners have no vision of Temple work and do not possess the keys which were restored in the holy house, they keep it in good preservation. They even refused a tempting offer from John D. Rockefeller, who wanted to purchase the elaborate panels and windows directly behind the pulpits in front of the building. However, he was permitted to reproduce the desired portion and place it in a magnificent cathedral he was having erected in New York City.

The Temple at Kirtland has served its purpose and has ceased to be a House of the Lord. It was but a stepping stone to greater and more complete temples wherein the sacred ordinances of the Priesthood could be administered. The courage and faith of the Saints enabled them to turn their backs upon despoiled Temples and private dwellings and face the distant West where they would build and enjoy the most sacred fruits of their labor—the Temples of God.

It must have been a source of sorrow to the Saints in the West to know how the former Temples at Kirtland and Nauvoo were being defiled. The spirit of the Pioneers is revealed in the words of President Young when he learned that the Temple at Nauvoo had been burned. Lifting his hand toward heaven and as if looking beyond the sky he exclaimed, "Good, Father, if You want it to be burned up." Later he said of the burning of the Temple:

would rather see it burnt than to see it in the hands of devils. I was thankful to see the Temple of Nauvoo on fire. Previous to crossing the Mississippi River, we had met in the Temple and handed it over to the Lord God of Israel. I hoped to see it burned before I left but I did not. I was glad when I heard of its being destroyed by fire, and its walls having fallen in, and said, "Hell, you cannot now occupy it." When the temple is built here, I want to maintain it for those of the Priesthood; if this cannot be, I would rather not see it built, but go into the mountains and administer there in the ordinances of the Holy Priesthood, which is our privilege. I would rather do this than to build a Temple for the wicked to trample under their feet.

Journal of Discourses, VIII:203.

[Hemidakota]

Another article by Joseph's mother - Lucy Mack Smith:

Apostasy and Pollution of the House of the Lord

Shortly after the completion of the house, Joseph and Martin Harris took a short tour through the eastern country. When they arrived at Palmyra, on their return, Joseph had a vision, which lasted until he besought the Lord to take it from him; for it manifested to him things which were painful to contemplate. It was taken from before his eyes for a short time, but soon returned again, and remained until the whole scene was portrayed before him.

On his arrival at home, the brethren seemed greatly pleased to see him. The next day he preached a sermon, and the following is a part of his remarks:

"Brethren, I am rejoiced to see you, and I have no doubt but that you are glad to see me. We are now nearly as happy as we can be on earth. We have accomplished more than we had any reason to expect when we began. Our beautiful house is finished, and the Lord has acknowledged it, by pouring out His Spirit upon us here, and revealing to us much of His will in regard to the work which He is about to perform. Furthermore, we have everything that is necessary for our comfort and convenience, and, judging from appearances, one would not suppose that anything could occur which would break up our friendship for each other, or disturb our tranquility. But, brethren, beware; for I tell you in the name of the Lord, that there is an evil in this very congregation, which, if not repented of, will result in setting many of you (who are here this day) so much at enmity against me, that you will have a desire to take my life, and you even would do it, if God should permit the deed. But, brethren, I now call upon you to repent, and cease all your hardness of heart, and turn from those principles of death and dishonesty which you are harboring in your bosoms, before it is eternally late, for there is yet room for repentance."

He continued to labor with them in this way, appealing to them in the most solemn manner until almost everyone in the house was in tears, and he was exhausted with speaking.

In the fall of 1836, a bank was established in Kirtland. Soon after the sermon, above mentioned, Joseph discovered that a large amount of money had been taken away by fraud, from this bank. He immediately demanded a search warrant of Esquire F. G. Williams, which was flatly refused. "I insist upon a warrant," said Joseph, "for if you will give me one, I can get the money, and if you do not, I will break you of your office." "Well, break it is, then," said Williams, "and we will strike hands upon it." "Very well," said Joseph, "from henceforth I drop you from my quorum, in the name of the Lord."

Joseph then went to Cleveland, in order to transact some business pertaining to the bank; and as he was absent the ensuing Sunday, my husband preached to the people. In speaking of the bank affair, he reflected somewhat sharply upon Warren Parrish. Although the reflection was just, Parrish was highly incensed, and made an attempt to drag him out of the stand. My husband appealed to Oliver Cowdery, who was justice of the peace, to have him brought to order; but Oliver never moved from his seat. William seeing the abuse which his father was receiving, sprang forward and caught Parrish, and carried him in his arms nearly out of the house. At this John Boynton stepped forward, and drawing a sword from his cane, presented it to William's breast, and said, "if you advance one step further, I will run you through." Before William had time to turn himself, several gathered around who threatened to handle him severely, if he should lay the weight of his finger upon Parrish again. At this juncture of affairs, I left the house, not only tertrified at the scene, but likewise sick at heart, to see that the apostasy of which Joseph had prophesied, was so near at hand."

History of the Prophet Joseph, by his Mother, Lucy Smith, pp. 211-213.

[Wingnut]

Nothing better than to read it first hand on what did transpired during that day when the apostates took control of the Kirkland Temple. Count the number of Apostles who were involved.

Biography and Family Record of ... - Google Book Search

The Kirkland temple, I believe, was a preparatory temple. It was designed to reveal the further ordinances of the temple, but was not designed for them. It has no basement, and no baptismal font. Baptism for the Dead was revealed after the completion of the temple, and were performed in rivers or lakes until the Nauvoo temple was built. Interestingly enough, the meeting areas of both temples were designed with curtans that could be pulled to create sub rooms in the main chaimber. The building was built with two sets of pulpets, one for the Melc. Priesthood and the other for the Aaronic, and the benches could reverse their backs, to face either of the pulpets. The Nauvoo had the same set up, as does the Salt Lake temple, and many of the earlier temples. The Los Angeles Temple is the last one to be built with an assembly hall.

The Kirkland Temple was a true temple. Read the dedicatory prayer by Joseph Smith and the amount of visitation of not only by the Godhead but others to those within the walls. To add some creditability, wasn't it the Lord that provide the plans on how to build the temple by revelations? I think so...

Read Doctrine and Covenants 109

Now what can be said after this bad situation what was published about the temple....

Guys, it's not Kirkland. It's Kirtland.

It wasn't until the move to Salt Lake, when the saints began building tabernacles and later chapels for regular worship. The prarie saints met in homes or outdoors, or they met in the first floor of the temple. The best comparison today is the New York City temple which has the baptimsmal font in the basement, then mission and stake offices on the first floor. The second floor is a regular meeting house open to all, and the upper floors are for temple ordinances.

The Manhattan temple was built on top of an existing building. It was already a chapel and an Institute building, and they decided to build a temple straight up from the existing facility. It was modeled after the Hong Kong temple.

[Dravin]

Guys, it's not Kirkland. It's Kirtland.

You mean it wasn't made by Costco?