Tithing

[aj4u]

So don't even try? (Romans 6:15)

Unless you are seriously advocating that we can't keep the commandments perfectly so don't even try and that not even trying won't effect our knowing of God then we aren't in disagreement.

If that is what you are maintaining then you are saying that as per 1 John 2:3-4 that nobody knows Christ (none of us have the truth in us) and thus none of us will be granted eternal life (John 17:3). You just damned the entire human race with your logic or decanonized 1 John.

I've already prayed about the nature of faith and works and have received an answer. Namely that 2 Nephi 25:23 we need to do all we can and rely upon the atonement of Jesus Christ to make up the rather market shortfall. Do my works save me? No, but works are apart of following Christ, and following Christ (obeying him) will very definitely have an impact on my salvation.

After all, he's the author of salvation to all those who obey him (Hebrews 5:9). We are rewarded by whom we list to obey (Romans 6:16).

And grace, his atonement is what bridges the gap between our best and what is needed (see above 2 Nephi 25:23).

Yes, compared to the perfect righteousness of God anything we can do is of no effect, but we've still been commanded to pray for those who despitefully use us and various other things. This is not an indictment to not follow God's commands.

As previously stated our works have no power to save, only Christ does but we need to obey him.

See above. Also, something I think a lot of people don't take into consideration is the fact that a lot of the letters sent out by the apostles were to converted Jews and non-Jewish converts who were constantly trying to stick to the Law of Moses (the later because of influence from the former) and the belief that salvation was a reward owed them by God because of righteous things they did (which makes sense from the pagan background of non-Jewish converts. A good harvests was owed them by Ceres because they sacrificed 2 goats and donated 5 gold to the local temple). Which is not the case, salvation isn't anything owed us, its a gift from God, but that doesn't mean we aren't to do our best to keep his commandments.

It was trying to dissuade the idea that, "Okay, I went to church 5 times, gave alms 3 times and prayed for that jerk at the post office. God owes me a ride to heaven now." not to quash the idea that, "I need to follow Christ and do my best to live as he lived and to follow his commandments and he'll make up my shortfalls and imperfections through his atonement."

If we have faith and God's grace working in our lives, we will be manifesting good works, but it is possible to do good things for people and not have the faith necessary for our salvation. It is not possible, however, to have faith and God's grace without good works. If the good works are absent, faith is absent as well. The things I have been sharing regarding works and faith are not my opinions; it is the gospel! Yes, I said we cannot keep the commandments perfectly. If we could, we wouldn't need Christ. I am also saying, Yes, we strive like an athlete to let Christ work through us, but only Christ can finish the work He started in us. If it is indeed He that started the work to begin with. Let me put it this way, you are either trusting Christ to get the job done in and through you or you're trusting in your own strength and best efforts (the mighty arm of the flesh) for your right standing with God. You can't have it both ways. Which way do you take? Edited May 11, 2009 by aj4u

[aj4u]

If we choose our best efforts to follow God's commandments for our right standing with Him then we had better do it perfectly because our salvation will depend on how perfectly we kept His commands for we will be judged by those works and Christ's death on the cross does not apply to us. When we accept Christ we have to take the complete package He offers. Jesus does not need our assistance to save us or the world. We have to meet Him on His terms not ours. That is why it is called the gospel (Good News) we don't have do it in our strength. The battle is the Lords. To follow any other teaching than this is a heresey and another gospel not according to Christ. If we do not do the works of Christ, then there is the absence of faith and God's grace in our lives. It is just that simple. If you are doing your best to earn your right relationship with God, then you are on your own! Good luck!

Edited May 11, 2009 by aj4u

[aj4u]

I this point of the discussion, I would be happy know that you at least understand what is being said.

[Dravin]

The things I have been sharing regarding works and faith are not my opinions; it is the gospel!

Actually you are sharing your opinions/beliefs of what the gospel is just as anyone else here on the board is. Just because you think that's what it is does not make it so (and this of course equally applies to me).

*Yes, we strive like an athlete to let Christ work through us, but only Christ can finish the work He started in us.

Okay, so we should be doing our best. Thanks that actually answers the question after a manner.

Which way do you take?

I take it as the only thing that can save me is the atonement of Jesus Christ, that said Jesus Christ has taught that there are things we must do for that atonement to apply to us. Most Christian will agree to this at least at the faith level, we must have faith in him for his grace to apply. I just believe there is more to having faith and striving to obey Christ then some others do that's all.

Doing our best to be like Christ and depending on his atonement to cleanse us from sin are not mutually exclusive.

I this point of the discussion, I would be happy know that you at least understand what is being said.

I'm not sure I understand the totality of what you are trying to say. As far as I can gather it boils down to, “Works don't save us, Christ does.” which I full heartedly agree with.

[aj4u]

Actually you are sharing your opinions/beliefs of what the gospel is just as anyone else here on the board is. Just because you think that's what it is does not make it so (and this of course equally applies to me)..

I agree, you are entitled to your opinion.

Okay, so we should be doing our best. Thanks that actually answers the question after a manner. .

There is nothing wrong with doing our best. We should do everything our best and as onto the Lord.

I take it as the only thing that can save me is the atonement of Jesus Christ, that said Jesus Christ has taught that there are things we must do for that atonement to apply to us. Most Christian will agree to this at least at the faith level, we must have faith in him for his grace to apply. I just believe there is more to having faith and striving to obey Christ then some others do that's all..

What more do you think needs to be done other than our faith and God's grace and our striving to be obedient?

Doing our best to be like Christ and depending on his atonement to cleanse us from sin are not mutually exclusive..

They can be mutually exculsive if your doing your best in your own strength to establish a righteous stand with God. Christ must do the work through you for the blood of Christ to take effect on your salvation in any sense of the word!

I'm not sure I understand the totality of what you are trying to say. As far as I can gather it boils down to, “Works don't save us, Christ does.” which I full heartedly agree with.

You don't, but we do agree on this statement here, and what we agree on in this statement is not our opinion it is the gospel. “Works don't save us, Christ does.” Well, we are making progress. Edited May 12, 2009 by aj4u

[Dravin]

What more do you think needs to be done other than our faith and God's grace and our striving to be obedient?

Nothing. I'm saying people have different ideas on just what those entail. For instance for me I believe that part of striving to be obedient is paying tithing and not drinking beer, obviously not everyone feels that. More may have been the wrong word, different is probably more accurate.

[aj4u]

I got your response through email, but it doesn't show up on the forum. I kept signing on and off, but no dice. Do you know what's wrong?

[aj4u]

Nothing. I'm saying people have different ideas on just what those entail. For instance for me I believe that part of striving to be obedient is paying tithing and not drinking beer, obviously not everyone feels that. More may have been the wrong word, different is probably more accurate.

Never mind it showed up now. Yes, I understand. Some may feel differently about those topics. Actually, that is a different discussion or topic. The kingdom of God is not a matter meat or drink or the paying of tithes or what one's personal view is about those things. There are Christians who pay tithe that are going to heaven, and there are Christians that don't who are going to heaven; there are people who pay tithe going to hell and there are those going that don't. The same goes for food and drink.

[aj4u]

We each will be judged individually.. based on our life experience... I have a feeling Fahter in Heaven will be much kinder to us than we are to ourselves.

When it comes to matters of the soul, our feelings make a wonderful servant but a very poor leader!

It is written: "My people perish for lack of knowledge" Many people believe in Jesus in different ways; for instance, Muslims believe He is a great prophet but not the Son of God. Cults like Jehovah Witnesses believe Jesus is the only angel God calls His son. Moreover, there are other Christians that believe that Jesus is a created being.

All Christians build on the foundation of Christ in different ways, but some will receive rewards and some will suffer loss. All will suffer loss, however, regardless of what they do if they don't know who Jesus really is and how to build on the chief corner stone foundation of our eternal souls.

Jesus is the Word of God made flesh. Jesus is God in the flesh; He is the creator of every living creature on earth and at all levels and dimensions of heaven. When it comes to knowing Jesus, tithing is the very least of my concerns. To know Christ, NOT ABOUT Him, is to have eternal life!

[Hemidakota]

Nothing. I'm saying people have different ideas on just what those entail. For instance for me I believe that part of striving to be obedient is paying tithing and not drinking beer, obviously not everyone feels that. More may have been the wrong word, different is probably more accurate.

Principle of knowing GOD and the Savior personally. Something that Joseph was strive to teach the early Saints.

You are not guarantee the Celestial Kingdom by having the basic two elements - work and faith.

[Hemidakota]

We each will be judged individually.. based on our life experience... I have a feeling Fahter in Heaven will be much kinder to us than we are to ourselves.

You are correct. We are harsh to our own salvation then what our beloved FATHER may judge.

[aj4u]

Principle of knowing GOD and the Savior personally. Something that Joseph was strive to teach the early Saints.

You are not guarantee the Celestial Kingdom by having the basic two elements - work and faith.

Nor will tithing and not drinking wine save you or guarantee heaven. You responded to Dravin about drinking using Joseph as your source:

Ro 14 States that we should keep what we believe about meat and drink to ourselves. Happy is the man who does not condemn himself in what he has the faith to do. As long as he doesn't offend someone, it is between him and his God. Why should I let someone put me in the bondage of their limited faith on what I can or cannot drink when I am home alone not stumbling anyone?

Ro. 14: 17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.

19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.

21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Is Paul a false prophet here? He says:

No one should tell anyone what they should or should not eat or drink. It is OKay as long as you don't offend anyone with your food or drink!

Edited May 13, 2009 by aj4u

[Soul_Searcher]

OK, on Sunday we were down to our last 30 quid before DH got paid. We needed it or no work or food for us on Monday. Well, I took it and had in the envelope ready to give. I thoought, well something will work out hopefully, and I was prepared to speak to the Bishop if necessary, as suggested here. Well there was a baptism after church and they said they were not taking tithing at all that day. So I literally could not pay it. Well, a blessing of sorts I suppose, as we needed the money anyway so we used it. We will take it out of our money this week to pay.

Is this a blessing because I really did think, ok if we are told we will be blessed then Im willing to put that to the test, and I had it ready to hand over.

[TruthSeekerToo]

Soul_Searcher-thanks for the update. Have you found any ways to reduce your monthly bills or ways to being in any extra income?

[Hemidakota]

Nor will tithing and not drinking wine save you or guarantee heaven. You responded to Dravin about drinking using Joseph as your source:

Ro 14 States that we should keep what we believe about meat and drink to ourselves. Happy is the man who does not condemn himself in what he has the faith to do. As long as he doesn't offend someone, it is between him and his God. Why should I let someone put me in the bondage of their limited faith on what I can or cannot drink when I am home alone not stumbling anyone?

Ro. 14: 17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.

19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.

21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Is Paul a false prophet here? He says:

No one should tell anyone what they should or should not eat or drink. It is OKay as long as you don't offend anyone with your food or drink!

Quoting is great if you know what exactly is being told. Remember the letter is addressing what audience and why. He was communicating with the Saints and not non-members.

Being a dispositional prophet, it is the first one to quote in our time. If anyone has seen it or talked about it, it was him in our generation.

[Hemidakota]

OK, on Sunday we were down to our last 30 quid before DH got paid. We needed it or no work or food for us on Monday. Well, I took it and had in the envelope ready to give. I thoought, well something will work out hopefully, and I was prepared to speak to the Bishop if necessary, as suggested here. Well there was a baptism after church and they said they were not taking tithing at all that day. So I literally could not pay it. Well, a blessing of sorts I suppose, as we needed the money anyway so we used it. We will take it out of our money this week to pay.

Is this a blessing because I really did think, ok if we are told we will be blessed then Im willing to put that to the test, and I had it ready to hand over.

Yes! At times the Spirit knows the needs of the Saints. However, take the time in talking to the Bishop in seeking help.

Let me or us know the what transpired and if you need further assistance.

[aj4u]

Quoting is great if you know what exactly is being told. Remember the letter is addressing what audience and why. He was communicating with the Saints and not non-members. .

I am very aware

Being a dispositional prophet, it is the first one to quote in our time. If anyone has seen it or talked about it, it was him in our generation.

I am not sure I understand. Are you saying that the times are different now and that is why it is prohibited?

[Gargantuan]

Pay your tithing and the help will come from the Lord after the trial of your faith. I had always been taught as a young boy that paying tithing was what I should do and that the "windows of heaven” would be opened to me to bless me in ways above measure. At one time in my life, I was in desperate need of help. It seemed like months and years had passed and I was still in need of help to pay my smallest expenses. Help came to me in unexpected ways. I always knew when it had come. I knew it was God's blessing to me, because I had paid my tithing. Having faith in my belief has helped me through hard times and I know as it will in the future. Please be patient and the blessings will come to you as you continue to develop your Faith obeying the privilege of paying tithing.

[Gargantuan]

Pay your tithing and the help will come from the Lord after the trial of your faith. I had always been taught as a young boy that paying tithing was what I should do and that the "windows of heaven” would be opened to me to bless me in ways above measure. At one time in my life, I was in desperate need of help. It seemed like months and years had passed and I was still in need of help to pay my smallest expenses. Help came to me in unexpected ways. I always knew when it had come. I knew it was God's blessing to me, because I had paid my tithing. Having faith in my belief has helped me through hard times and I know as it will in the future. Please be patient and the blessings will come to you as you continue to develop your Faith obeying the privilege of paying tithing. Gar

[Gargantuan]

Pay your tithing and the help will come from the Lord after the trial of your faith. I had always been taught as a young boy that paying tithing was what I should do and that the "windows of heaven" would be opened to me to bless me in ways above measure. I had never made it a matter of prayer and consequently never really understood the principle of tithing.

At one time in my life, I was in desperate need of help. It seemed like months and years had passed and I was still in need of help to pay my smallest expenses. I humbled myself and prayed for God's help. I foolishly reminded God that I had always paid my tithing and fast offerings. Many days went by and nothing happened to help me. Help finally came to me in unexpected ways. I knew it was God's blessing to me, because I had paid my tithing. Having faith in my belief has helped me through hard times and I know as it will in the future. Please be patient and the blessings will come to you as you continue to develop your Faith obeying the privilege of paying tithing. Blessings, Gar

Edited May 19, 2009 by Gargantuan
grammar

[aj4u]

Here is an interesting reflection by Al maxey: Tithing Prior to the Christian Era

The study of tithing in the Pre-Christian Era is not as simple an exegetical exercise as one might initially suspect. There were various types and categories of tithes, some occurring in Pre-Mosaic times and others enacted during the Mosaic Covenant. Scholars, and even ancient rabbinic sources, do not always agree on the nature and identity of some of these tithes. There is even confusion as to the relationship between tithes and the offering of first fruits. Some say they have a common origin, others declare them entirely separate. It is debated, from the writings of Josephus, whether there were two major Jewish tithes or three (Antiquities of the Jews, book 4, chapter 8, section 22; see the footnote). The safest conclusion is perhaps that suggested in the Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible -- "The different references in the OT to tithing probably indicate differing practices in various times and places" (vol. 5, p. 757). In other words, tithing varied greatly in the Pre-Christian Era and is therefore a rather difficult topic to pin down precisely or to characterize in sweeping generalizations.

It might also come as a surprise to some readers to learn that tithing was not a strictly Jewish practice. "Tithing was an ancient and general practice among other religions and cultures. ... Giving a portion of one's labor or of the spoils of war was known among a number of nations in antiquity" (ibid, vol. 5, p. 756). The Egyptians, for example, gave two tenths of their harvest to the Pharaoh (Genesis 47:24). The Lydians and Babylonians also practiced tithing. The Syrians forced their people, even those whom they captured, to tithe (1 Maccabees 10:31; 11:35). Many of these tithes, however, were for political purposes; a type of tax imposed by the ruler. In Jewish society, especially during the Mosaic period, the tithe was primarily for religious purposes, and was connected with various offerings (grain, flocks, oil, wine, etc.).

The Hebrew word for tithing is asar, and is derived from a word signifying "ten." Thus, tithing involves giving or collecting a tenth part. The corresponding Greek words (dekate and dekatoo) signify the same. In the Pre-Mosaic Era tithing is first mentioned in connection with Abraham, who, upon returning from his victory over the invading Mesopotamian kings, gave a tithe to Melchizedek, the king/priest of Salem (Genesis 14:18-20). In Hebrews 7 this incident is mentioned to demonstrate the superior nature of Melchizedek's priesthood to the Aaronic (vs. 4-10). One also finds Jacob, fleeing from his brother Esau, promising to give a tenth to God if the Lord will prosper him in this dangerous situation with his brother (Genesis 28:20-22).

However, it was clearly during the Mosaic Era that tithing truly came into its own, at least for the Jewish people. Moses made it very clear that the tenth part of land, grain, fruit and herd "is the Lord's!" (Leviticus 27:30-33). In the Pentateuch, there was legislative instruction given to the people regarding this practice of tithing -- who was to give, who was to receive, when, where, what and why. These can be studied at: Numbers 18:21-32; Deuteronomy 12:1-18; 14:22-29; 18:1-4; 26:12-15. References to the tithe in the prophets are: Amos 4:4 and Malachi 3:8-10. References to the tithe in the other writings of the OT canon are: 2 Chronicles 31:4-12; Nehemiah 10:36-39; 12:44; 13:5, 12. If any sweeping generalization could be legitimately made, it would be the following: "The aim of all tithing was to acknowledge that all man had belonged to God" (The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible, vol. 5, p. 757).

"By giving the tithe the Israelites were declaring solemnly that they were giving a portion back to the Lord who had prospered them. By giving the tithe they also recognized the validity of the priests' and Levites' role as God's representatives and acknowledged their right to receive support for the spiritual service they performed on the people's behalf. The tithe ritual afforded the Israelites an opportunity to remember Yahweh's blessings as He had remembered them, and to imitate their God's care for slaves, the poor, orphans, and widows. The tithe demanded that the Israelites serve their God at a significant cost to themselves. In this amazing system of tithing, Israel's economics became a channel for expressing love to God and love to neighbors, the heart of the Torah (Deut. 6:4-9; Lev. 19:18). Deuteronomy explicitly makes paramount the joy and fellowship of presenting the tithe in a family context (Deut. 14:26). The reforms under Hezekiah (2 Chron. 31:4) and Nehemiah (Neh. 10:36; 13:10-14) emphasized the seriousness of neglecting the support of the Levites, God's appointed ministers" (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, vol. 4, p. 863).

The attitude God sought in the tithe was an attitude of JOY. "In generous spirit pay homage to the Lord, be not sparing of freewill gifts. With each contribution show a cheerful countenance, and pay your tithes in a spirit of joy. Give to the Most High as He has given to you, generously, according to your means" (Ecclesiasticus 35:7-9 ... an apocryphal work also known as The Wisdom of Jesus ben Sirach). Cheerful, joyous giving is also stressed in the NT writings --- 1 Cor. 16:2 and 2 Cor. 9:6-7. Pierre Corneille (1606-1684) captured the biblical spirit well when he wrote, "The manner of giving is worth more than the gift" (Le Menteur, act 1, scene 1). "Paul's exhortation to give with a cheerful heart reflects Deuteronomy's instruction about tithing, which emphasizes the importance of rejoicing -- e.g., Deut. 12:7, 11f, 17f; 14:26" (ISBE, vol. 4, p. 863).

Tithing and the Teaching of Jesus

"By Jesus' time the Pharisees had legalized the whole affair, and Jesus denounced them for paying attention to minutiae while they ignored the real issue of a pleasing moral life before God" (ISBE, vol. 4, p. 863). Jesus makes only three references to tithing, and they are all with respect to the abuses of the Pharisees -- Matthew 23:23; Luke 11:42; 18:12. "In the first two passages He contrasts the minute exactness with which the Pharisees observe their less important and external laws of tithe with their careless disregard of the inner and more important virtues of justice, mercy, faith, and the love of God. In Luke 18:12 He illustrates how compliance with external requirements, especially when these are exceeded, as in the case of the Pharisees, and dissociated from the corresponding state of heart, breeds a culpable and overweening self-righteousness" (Dr. James Hastings, Dictionary of the NT: Christ and the Gospels, vol. 2, p. 732). "In the time of the NT, changes had taken place. The tithe of mint, anise, and cumin was a prescription of the Talmudic rabbis, which went beyond the intent of Scripture" (Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible, vol. 5, p. 758).

Jesus regarded the tithe as important for the Jewish people, especially as a people under a covenant of Law. However, He also realized the people, as well as their leaders, had woefully failed to perceive the true significance behind these various practices. He further looked to a new spiritual day for the people of God. "Our Lord evidently thought the tithe, as well as the other OT institutions, to be of Divine origin, and binding upon the Jews of His day. At the same time, He foresaw a period when outward observances should give place to the more purely inward, as men should worship the Father in spirit and in truth -- John 4:21-24" (Dr. James Hastings, Dictionary of the NT: Christ and the Gospels, vol. 2, p. 732).

The perfect example of the true liberality of giving ... the genuine overflow of a loving, benevolent heart ... is seen in Luke 21:1-4, where Jesus commends "a certain poor widow" who "out of her poverty put in all that she had to live on." No ten percent here! This was no mere tithe ... it was the ultimate sacrifice of a trusting soul. Billy Ray Cyrus sings a song in which these lyrics are found -- "All gave some; some gave all." Most all were willing to give a tenth part, but a few were willing to give all. Paul would later commend the Macedonians for their spirit of giving. They gave "not as we had expected," rather "their deep poverty overflowed in the wealth of their liberality. For I testify that according to their ability, and beyond their ability, they gave of their own accord, begging us with much entreaty for the favor of participation in the support of the saints" (2 Corinthians 8:2-4). Ten percent?! Not likely! But, what motivated such liberality? What led that widow to give all she had to live on? What caused the Macedonians to plead with Paul for the opportunity to give even beyond what the world might characterize as "generous"? The answer is found in Paul's own analysis -- "they first gave themselves to the Lord and to us" (vs. 5). TRUE giving, the type of giving our Lord has always sought, is the gift of SELF. It is not a "tithe" (just a portion) that our Father desires, it is a full self-sacrifice. All other gifts will then flow naturally from that one!! Walt Whitman (1819-1892) summed up this philosophy perfectly when he wrote, "When I give, I give myself" (Leaves of Grass, "Song of Myself").

Jesus lived and died under Law, during the Mosaic Era, thus He upheld the directives regarding tithing. Nevertheless, He began to call His disciples to a higher perception and practice; sharing with them the reality that something greater than LAW was quickly approaching -- a time when true acts of worship would transcend legislation, and would be spiritually offered up to the Father (John 4). The religious leaders of Jesus' day stressed legal exactness. Jesus repeatedly informed them, however, that they had completely missed the point of what God sought. As the Christian Era dawned this would increasingly come to light.

Tithing in the Early Church

"It is admitted universally that the payment of tithes, or the tenths of possessions, for sacred purposes did not find a place within the Christian Church during the age covered by the apostles and their immediate successors" (Dr. James Hastings, Dictionary of the NT: The Apostolic Church, vol. 4, p. 594). Centuries later some tried to reinstitute a tithe for the church, but "leaders in the church (like Irenaeus and Epiphanius) showed the arguments" of these who sought to bind the tithe upon their brethren "were not valid. Rather, freedom in Christian giving was emphasized" (The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible, vol. 5, p. 758).

"In all the cases referred to (in the NT church), the essential freedom of Christian action is implied. There is no legal code formulated for the guidance of those whose love of the brethren is thus tested. On the contrary, each one has the choice and determination as to his own attitude (2 Cor. 9:7). There is no external compulsion to detract from the joy, or to set a mechanical boundary to the inclination, of the Christian's giving to the poor. We thus recognize the truth of Irenaeus' words, 'Whilst they (the Jews) used to hold the tithes of their property as consecrated, they, on the other hand, who have grasped freedom, dedicate to the use of the Lord all things which they possess, giving joyfully and freely in greater abundance, because they have a greater hope' (Against Heresies)" (Dr. James Hastings, Dictionary of the NT: The Apostolic Church, vol. 4, p. 594-595).

I have to agree with the insight of the early church author Iranaeus of Lyons (ca. 125-202 A.D.). There was, and is, no need for a tithe among the disciples of Christ. Indeed, it is contrary to our very freedom to express our love and devotion without legislation and limitation. Ten percent is much too constraining for the genuine disciple; it is too limiting. Those with a spirit of liberality in their giving will far exceed a mere ten percent. Giving partakes of GRACE, which is boundless, and thus must never be restricted for New Covenant disciples, who abide within that grace, to a mere ten percent. Where grace abides, giving abounds!!! "Though the NT does not prescribe the tithe in a legal sense for the follower of Christ, yet he is taught to give systematically, bountifully, and cheerfully (1 Cor. 16:2; 2 Cor. 9:6-7)" (The Wycliffe Bible Encyclopedia, vol. 2, p. 1719).

The only place in the inspired writings pertaining to the Christian Era (post-Pentecost) where the word "tithing" appears is Hebrews 7, which "shows the superiority of the Melchizedek priesthood to the Levitical" (Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words). Some have suggested, as the reader pointed out in his email to me, that since Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek, and since one far greater than Melchizedek is here (Jesus Christ), therefore all men are still somehow obligated to pay tithes to this greater Priest. Such reasoning, however, misses the whole point of Christian liberty, the grace of giving, and the reality taught in Hebrews that the old has been supplanted by the new! We have moved beyond legislating portions, and have entered the era of liberty to give fully and freely. Seeking to bind tithing is nothing less than a return to law and a forfeiture of freedom; it legislates giving, rather than allowing it to be a liberal, limitless expression of a loving heart. Binding tithing upon those who are free in Christ is a return to LAW, which Paul warns in Galatians 5 can cause us to fall from grace and be severed from Christ. Why limit giving to a tithe, when our freedom allows us to be so much more generous and gracious, all to the benefit of others and the glory of God? It makes no sense whatsoever to follow such a course.

In all of the apostolic writings during the time following the establishment of the church "there is no evidence of a giving which is not free and spontaneous and which has not a moral and spiritual basis. No allusion is made to the necessity for the continuance of the Mosaic law of tithes. ... The relation between tithes and Christian giving may be apprehended as that between the law and the gospel as incentives and forces in life. It is the relation between a legal enactment which enforces by objective sanctions and a spiritual ideal which draws out all that is best and highest from those who recognize the significance of the blessedness of self-sacrifice for the sake of others" (Dr. James Hastings, Dictionary of the NT: The Apostolic Church, vol. 4, p. 595).

Reflections from Al Maxey:

Edited May 19, 2009 by aj4u

[aj4u]

Concluding Thoughts

Although I believe the urging of the elders at the congregation mentioned by the reader, where these leaders are seeking to encourage the members to practice tithing, is probably well-intentioned, nevertheless it is misguided, in my view. When seeking to motivate disciples to acts of increasing generosity, don't legislate .... liberate. When disciples of Christ are set free from restrictive LAW, and when they come to appreciate their LIBERTY, liberality will abound in all areas of their walk, work and worship. True generosity of heart can't be legislated; it is a demonstration of a heart in the grip of grace!

[Just_A_Guy]

Given the infinitesimal number of Christian churches whose members practice collectivism as practiced under Peter, it strikes me that there must be very few "hearts in the grip of grace" in all of Christendom.

[aj4u]

Given the infinitesimal number of Christian churches whose members practice collectivism as practiced under Peter, it strikes me that there must be very few "hearts in the grip of grace" in all of Christendom.

You just ain't a whistling Dixie

[Gargantuan]

Dear aj4u, Thanks for your research into the history of tithing. I'm sure there may be more to research and understand. As I read your material, I couldn't help but marvel at the eternal foresight and wisdom of God whom in his mercy has prepared the world and a Covenant People for the time of the Great Restoration and Last Dispensation. Please refer to D&C 64:23 (Tithing), 97:12,13 (Tithing), and to D&C 119:3 which says

"VERILY, thus saith the Lord, I require all their surplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop of my church in Zion,

2 For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church.

3 And this will be the beginning of the tithing of my people.

4 And after that, those who have thus been tithing will pay one-tenth of all their interest annually. This will be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.

5 Verily I say unto you, it will come to pass that all those who gather unto the land of Zion will be tithing of their surplus properties, and will observe this law, or they will not be found worthy to abide among you.

6 And I say unto you, if my people observe not this law, to keep it holy, and by this law sanctify the land of Zion unto me, that my statutes and my judgments may be kept thereon, that it may be most holy, behold, verily I say unto you, it will not be a land of Zion unto you.

7 And this shall be an ensample unto all the stakes of Zion. Even so. Amen."

The great prophet of this last Dispensation, Joseph Smith had revealed to him as have subsequent prophets after him the importance of paying honest tithes and offerings. It would have been more difficult for the latter-day people to accept the doctrine of sacrifice had not the Lord prepared from time to time in ages past some specific peoples who were willing to live His laws concerning sacrifice. Regards, Gar

Edited May 19, 2009 by Gargantuan
grammar