Incomplete Disclosure


mikbone
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Ether 3:17 And now, as I, Moroni, said I could not make a full account of these things which are written, therefore it sufficeth me to say that Jesus showed himself unto this man in the spirit, even after the manner and in the likeness of the same body even as he showed himself unto the Nephites.

Anyone?

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Ether 3:17 And now, as I, Moroni, said I could not make a full account of these things which are written, therefore it sufficeth me to say that Jesus showed himself unto this man in the spirit, even after the manner and in the likeness of the same body even as he showed himself unto the Nephites.

Anyone?

I reread this a couple days ago. It is not very clear. It needs to be read in context-vs 6-21. Because it also says that no man had ever seen the Lord before this (Br of Jared) and I would have thought Enoch and probably others would have seen him...

And it is very confusing because it speaks of "flesh and blood" and then says vs 9 "...I shall take upon me flesh and blood..."

Very confusing to me.

Edited by TruthSeekerToo
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I focus on verse 16. The rest you have to read carefully to figure out what's being said. But, 16 is plain.

Ether 3:

16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.

The other verses in chapter 3 take a back seat to 16 when understanding what's being said. Whether figurative or literal, one thing is certain, Christ did not show the brother of Jared a body of flesh and bones. If he saw it, it was a vision of the future.

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Whether figurative or literal, one thing is certain, Christ did not show the brother of Jared a body of flesh and bones.

You can absolutely put me in the category of uncertainity as to the type of spirit/body that Jehovah displayed to the Brother of Jared. But im leaning (heavily) toward flesh and bone.

"Even after the manner and in the likeness of the same body even as he showed himself unto the Nephites."

Edited by mikbone
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"and he ministered unto him even as he ministered unto the Nephites" vs 18

I'm gonna say he must have been privy to the same wonderful teachings that could not be written in 3 Nephi.

ETA: I think these are very important teachings. Read Ether 4. The writings of the Brother of Jared still need to come forth. Here is what WE have to do first!

Ether 4:6

6 For the Lord said unto me: They shall not go forth unto the Gentiles until the day that they shall repent of their iniquity, and become clean before the Lord.

Edited by TruthSeekerToo
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Just to make it a bit more confusing.

Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, Vol.2, p.123-125

---Bold Print irritatingly added by myself.---

Question: "There are several references testifying to the fact that the Lord appeared to ancient prophets before the flood, yet we read in the Book of Mormon, Ether 3:6-16, that the Lord had never shown himself to man prior to the days of the Brother of Jared. What explanation can be offered to clarify this apparent contradiction?"

It is true that the Savior appeared to the prophets before the flood, but it is evident that he did not reveal himself in the fullness as he did to the Brother of Jared. Talking "face to face," as stated in this revelation, does not mean that the Lord did not appear in a cloud; or, that his body was partially hidden from the view of the prophet. All of this could occur and yet the Lord still be partially, if not completely, hidden from the prophet's view. The great difference rests in this, which the conversation of the Lord with the Brother of Jared clearly indicates: The Savior was conversing with the Brother of Jared in person, yes, evidently face to face, yet the Lord was hidden by a veil. The Brother of Jared knew that the Lord was there, but evidently he did not understand that the Lord had a body apparently of flesh and bones. Through his great faith he was able to see the finger of the Lord when the Lord touched the stones. So astonished did the prophet become that he fell to the earth in fright, fearing that the Lord might strike him. ...

So the Savior showed to the Brother of Jared his entire body just as it would appear when he dwelt among men in the flesh.

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I agree. The premortal Savior was a personage of spirit. Only at his birth to Mary did he gain a physical body, and only after the resurrection did he gain a glorified immortal body of flesh and bone.

It was either a vision of the future, or the BoJ saw a spirit body (which does look the same) and assumed it was physical.

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Of course whatever the substance of His body, it had to be immortal and of an eternal nature.

Here is a question. If all things eternal have no beginning, how can we keep our (perfected) bodies for eternity? ie. if it has a beginning it has to have an end.

ETA: Nothing in these passages intimate it being a vision. Especially if BOJ was "ministered" to. Don't ya think? It seems pretty intimate and real to me. As always, I'm open to being wrong.

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Did we review vs 17? Here it is again.

17 And now, as I, Moroni, said I could not make a full account of these things which are written, therefore it sufficeth me to say that Jesus showed himself unto this man in the spirit, even after the manner and in the likeness of the same body even as he showed himself unto the Nephites.

I'm leaning towards spirit body that looks just like the physical body. However, I still think the questions in posts 36 & 37 are worth pondering. It is also interesting to note that the Lord's finger touched the rock.

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The only reason the Father couldn't atone for the sins of this world is because He already had an immortal body of flesh and bones, and could not take upon Him a mortal body, and His immortal body could not die again. I would guess *if* Christ had one then He would have been disqualified as well.

What our bodies (both) are made of is eternal, therefore they can be eternal, even if they have not been organized like this always, or have not always had a conscience.

I believe it had to be His spirit body, and somehow His physical body was shown to BoJ so he would know it was *like* the body He would take up in mortality. "After the manner of, and in the likeness of," doesn't mean the very same. We were created in the image of God, in the likeness of God. I believe this is the same description.

I have never believed spirit could not touch physical matter. Just because it can pass through if it wants, does not prove it must pass through. Even still, even if it can't touch the physical, Christ could have set His finger on the physical to make it appear it touched the stone.

Nothing conclusive from the text, other than what I pointed out in verse 16.

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Nothing in these passages intimate it being a vision. Especially if BOJ was "ministered" to. Don't ya think? It seems pretty intimate and real to me.

This is not the only time that Jehovah ministered to a man prior to his mortal sojourn as a savior.

D&C 107

53 Three years previous to the death of Adam, he called Seth, Enos, Cainan, Mahalaleel, Jared, Enoch, and Methuselah, who were all high priests, with the residue of his posterity who were righteous, into the valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman, and there bestowed upon them his last blessing.

54 And the Lord appeared unto them, and they rose up and blessed Adam, and called him Michael, the prince, the archangel.

55 And the Lord administered comfort unto Adam, and said unto him: I have set thee to be at the head; a multitude of nations shall come of thee, and thou art a prince over them forever.

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Just for the sake of arguement...

Let us assume that Jehovah had a Body of Flesh and Bone prior to his birth on this earth to the Virgin Mary.

How could He be born again? This question has been posed previously...

John 3

1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Well, as I see it, you would have to do at least 3 things.

1) Babies are young. So you would have to make the biologic body grow younger, perhaps to the state of an embryo. -- Can an immortal body change the appearance of its biologic age?

Bodies will come up, of course, as they were laid down, but will be restored to their proper, perfect frame immediately. Old people will not look old when they come forth from the grave. Scars will be removed. No one will be bent or wrinkled… Children Resurrected as Children. Of course, children who die do not grow in the grave. They will come forth with their bodies as they were laid down, and then they will grow to the full stature of manhood or womanhood after the resurrection, but all will have their bodies fully restored. Doctrines of Salvations, vol. 2, p. 292-293

2) The immortal body would have to be converted to a mortal body - This is a simple accomplishment via the use of the fruit of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

3) This embryo would then have to be transplanted into the womb of a healthy young mortal female. Perhaps as is alluded to in Alma 7:10 -- And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.

Edited by mikbone
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But, the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil was a transgression for Adam, and a sin for all who partake of it after.

Explain how you believe Christ could have done this without transgressing.

Also, I believe God told Eve that Christ would be born through her seed. If it was a planted embryo, that would mean she is a surrogate mother, or an "adopted" mother.

One of the purposes for Adam and Eve partaking of the fruit was so they could have mortal children. And this so Christ could be born of a mortal mother.

Conceive here is a powerful word, and very descriptive. I'd tend to think that if it is interpreted as you say that the word here is wrong, or even a lie. I look at "conceive" as a stand alone word describing that Mary was indeed the mother of His mortal body, just as any mother conceives as bears children. This must be for Him to have blood and be able to die. In my mind, "by the power of the Holy Ghost" is what's up for discussion.

I have spoken with others who I trust dearly who believe as you do. However, I have never read anything in scripture that gives me the impression that this is true. What feels good to me is that Jehovah was a spirit child of our Father in Heaven, just as we are. He came to earth to gain a body, just as you and I.

I concede that He was different. But, I believe that difference comes from having an immortal Father.

I believe the element that made up His body, even from the earliest hints of life itself (embryo) had to be created from that which was mortal. That was the whole purpose of Him being born to a mortal mother, to take on her physical characteristics.

It was not His lot to fall by partaking of the forbidden fruit, it was His lot to reverse those effects in His own body, and thereby pass it on to all mankind. Adam already fell that man might be, it was not needed for Christ to fall again. He inherited blood from His mother so that He could shed it and be quickened by Spirit, the ultimate "born again" scenario.

I'd like to see more scripture that supports your interpretation of this one.

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Also, I think you're reading too much into what He taught Nicodemus. In fact, He told Nicodemus that He was not talking about being physically born again, or not entering the mother's womb again. But, a spiritual re-birth, from the natural man to the spiritual man. It seems, again, it would be a misrepresentation of the truth, or a lie, if He was talking about His physical body re-entered a mother's womb.

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I'd like to see more scripture that supports your interpretation of this one.

OK

But, the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil was a transgression for Adam, and a sin for all who partake of it after. Explain how you believe Christ could have done this without transgressing.

I agree that Adam was forbidden to consume the fruit of the tree of KoG&E. Moses 3:17 But I'm not even sure if it was a transgression - violation of a law, command. I read it as more of a don't touch the fire, it will burn you statement (I deeply believe that God wanted Adam and Eve to partake of the fruit). I'm not sure where your comment that it was a sin for all else to partake of the fruit originates from...

As to how Christ could have done this without transgressing well...

It has been done many times before. Lets look at the birth of Adam and Eve.

Joseph Fielding Smith, Man His Origin and Destiny, p. 354

True it is that the body of man enters upon its career as a tiny germ or embryo, which becomes an infant, quickened at a certain stage by the spirit whose tabernacle it is, and the child, after being born, develops into a man. There is nothing in this, however, to indicate that the original man, the first of our race, began life as anything less than a man, or less than the human germ or embryo that becomes a man.

So Adam was born. He was not molded of clay. I believe that he was born like everyone else, and that he had parents.

Moses 6:59

That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven of water and of the Spirit and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory.

In this verse God is clearly speaking to Adam. And tells him that he was born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit. IF he was born with blood he was born a mortal not an immortal.

So based on the previous 2 statements I am going to argue that Adam was born as a mortal just like everyone else. How was this achieved?

Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 50

Things were first created spiritually; the Father actually begat the spirits, and they were brought forth and lived with him. Then he commenced the work of creating earthly tabernacles, precisely as he had been created in this flesh himself, by partaking of the coarse material that was organized and composed this earth, until his system was charged with it, consequently the tabernacles of his children were organized from the coarse materials of this earth.

Waiting for Worlds End, Diary of Wilford Woodruff, April 9, 1852 – quoting Brigham Young, p. 150

When our Father came into the Garden He came with his celestial body & brought one of his wifes with him & eat of the fruit of the garden until He could begat a tabernacle.

Why was this necessary? Because Celestial beings only create Spirits.

Doctrines of Salvation, volume 2, p. 68

Spirit Children in the Resurrection. Those who attain to the exaltation in the celestial kingdom shall have the power of eternal increase of posterity, and they shall be "above all, because all things are subject unto them." Children born to parents who have obtained, through their faithfulness, the fullness of these blessings, shall be spirit children not clothed upon with tabernacles of flesh and bones. These children will be like we were before we came into this world.

Franklin D. Richards, Scriptural Items, July 16, 1843 - quoting Joseph Smith

The earthly is the image of the Heavenly shows that is by the multiplication of Lives that the eternal worlds are created and occupied that which is born of the flesh is flesh that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit.

Wilford Woodruff Journal, Funeral sermon delivered at Nauvoo, Ill. west side of the temple on Sunday March 20, 1842 – quoting Joseph Smith Underlining added by Mikbone

Resurrection - We Come Forth as we Lay Down - No Blood - Children with a Child's Body

As concerning the resurrection I will merely say that all men will come from the grave as they lie down, whether old or young their will not be added unto their stature one cubit neither taken from it. All being raised by the power of God having the spirit of God in their bodies & not blood Children will be enthroned in the presence of God & the Lamb with bodies of the same stature that were on earth, Having been redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb they will there enjoy a fullness of that light Glory & intelligence which is received in the celestial kingdom of God "blessed are the dead who die in the Lord, for they rest from their labors & their works do follow them

So when God came down to Earth and created Man, He had to do so by becoming mortal himself. I believe that I have documented this pretty well. I suppose that the Tree of Life was in the Garden so that God and his Wife could then reverse themselves and Adam and Eve back into immortal beings. And because Adam and Eve were not begotten in sin they were innocent and did not know the difference between good and evil. I imagine that this must have been a nice vacation time for God and His Wife (and well deserved I must say).

And if Jehovah had a body of Flesh and Bone during our pre-existence. He and His Wife could have been the ones who actually begot Adam and Eve. This would bring some sense to the following scriptures:

Colossians 1:16

Alma 11:38-39

D&C 93:10

Ether 3:15

Isaiah 45:9-12

Moses 2:27

Mosiah 26:23

Also, I believe God told Eve that Christ would be born through her seed. If it was a planted embryo, that would mean she is a surrogate mother, or an "adopted" mother.

One of the purposes for Adam and Eve partaking of the fruit was so they could have mortal children. And this so Christ could be born of a mortal mother.

Conceive here is a powerful word, and very descriptive. I'd tend to think that if it is interpreted as you say that the word here is wrong, or even a lie. I look at "conceive" as a stand alone word describing that Mary was indeed the mother of His mortal body, just as any mother conceives as bears children. This must be for Him to have blood and be able to die. In my mind, "by the power of the Holy Ghost" is what's up for discussion.

This arguement can be easily addressed via simple definations. I used Dorland's Medical Dictionary for the medical terms.

Beget - to father, sire

Birth - the emergence of a new individual from the body of its parent. The act or process of being born

Born - brought forth by or as if by birth.

Blastocyst - the mammalian conceptus, a single, spherical layer of cells enclosing a hollow, central cavity.

Coitus - sexual connection per vaginam between male and female.

Conception - the onset of pregnancy, marked by implantation of the blastocyst in the endometrium, the formation of a visible zygote.

Embryo - those derivatives of the fertilized ovum that eventually become the offspring, during their period of most rapid development.

Fertilization - a sequence of events that begins with contact betweeen a spermatozoon and an ovum, leading to their fusion, which stimulates the completion of the oocyte maturation with release of the second polar body. Male and female pronuclei then form and merge, synapsis follows, which restores the diploid number of chromosomes and results in biparental inheritance and the determination of sex. The process of fertilization leads to the formation of a zygote and ends with the initiation of its clevage.

Surrogate - substitute; one put into the place of another.

Vessel - hollow utensil, such as a cup, vase, or pitcher, used as a container, especially for liquids.

Virgin - a person who has not had sexual intercourse

Zygote - the fertilized ovum; the cell resulting from union of a male and a female gamete (sperm and ovum).

Alma 7:10

And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.

In my mind it is you and not I that is misinterpreting in this context. It is true that conception in layman's terms can be defined as to become pregnant. But in no way does it imply coitus.

Also, I think you're reading too much into what He taught Nicodemus. In fact, He told Nicodemus that He was not talking about being physically born again, or not entering the mother's womb again. But, a spiritual re-birth, from the natural man to the spiritual man. It seems, again, it would be a misrepresentation of the truth, or a lie, if He was talking about His physical body re-entered a mother's womb.

You are basically arguing my point here. Nicodemus asked Christ a point blank question. Christ avoided the question and made a statement about spiritual re-birth. Thus as I read the passage, Christ took a stance of Incomplete Disclosure.

I concede that He was different. But, I believe that difference comes from having an immortal Father.

Woot! we agree that Christ was essentially different than the rest of us. I have been wanting to make a list of the ways that Jehovah/Christ was different than us. Sounds like a different thread though. Edited by mikbone
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Not sure how much of this I'm going to try to chew at once.

I agree that Adam was forbidden to consume the fruit of the tree of KoG&E. Moses 3:17 But I'm not even sure if it was a transgression - violation of a law, command. I read it as more of a don't touch the fire, it will burn you statement (I deeply believe that God wanted Adam and Eve to partake of the fruit).

There were conflicting commandments. One was a sin of omission, the other of commission. In order to fulfill the 1st commandment they had to gain the knowledge by going through the 2nd. Sins of omission are interesting because at what point do you break the law? Unless you are given a time limit there is no way to know. Hence, going through the 2nd gave Adam a time limit.

Partaking of the forbidden fruit indeed was a transgression. It violated a law or it would not have brought about the fall.

I'm not sure where your comment that it was a sin for all else to partake of the fruit originates from...

Oh, from the belief that we will be punished for our own sins and not for Adam's transgression. We essentially partake of the forbidden fruit when we choose against God's will, but we do it with full knowledge of the consequense.

As to how Christ could have done this without transgressing well...

It has been done many times before. Lets look at the birth of Adam and Eve.

Here's is where we part ways. I don't believe Adam and Eve had the same Father. There are scriptures that indicate Eve's seed wasn't necessarily in the same class as Adam's seed, or that they were on a different generation.

Here's where it gets tough without getting really deep, but I'll try:

Christ was born of an immortal Father and a mortal mother. His body was born mortal with the ability to become immortal.

Eve was born of an immortal Mother and a mortal father. Her body was born immortal with the ability to become mortal.

With a deep study of this line of thinking you see why it is necessary for man to hold the Priesthood (Christ had to be born of a mortal mother). I can also explain my theory of how there was a mortal man to parent Eve. But, later.

So Adam was born. He was not molded of clay. I believe that he was born like everyone else, and that he had parents.

I have always believed this. Adam and Eve had/have belly buttons.

In this verse God is clearly speaking to Adam. And tells him that he was born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit. IF he was born with blood he was born a mortal not an immortal.

I don't interpret it the same way you do. Look very closely at what is being said:

59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world...

He is speaking of what happened as a result of his transgression. He fell, or died spiritually. He was born into "the world," or into mortality. He wasn't speaking of how He was created or born immortal, but how he was "born" mortal, making the parallel of how to be (re)born spiritually. You will find that we do not always use the same definitions for events that God does.

So based on the previous 2 statements I am going to argue that Adam was born as a mortal just like everyone else.

This would necessitate your reasoning that Adam did not transgress or fall, which we know he did. Even in the verse in Moses 6 you quoted it said Adam transgressed. I think you're out-thinking yourself.

The rest of your quotes are right on the money.

Why was this necessary? Because Celestial beings only create Spirits.

I'm not certain this is true. I think it's all in how you understand the resurrection. Maybe we'll save that for another time.

So when God came down to Earth and created Man, He had to do so by becoming mortal himself.

I don't think so. If Adam was born mortal there would be no need for a fall.

This would lead to my understanding of the resurrection. But, we're biting off a lot already.

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Hey mik, as a side note:

In 3 Nephi 6, Zemnarihah was a type of Lucifer also. Check out this verse, considering what we discussed about Alma 43 and 44:

28 And their leader, Zemnarihah, was taken and hanged upon a tree, yea, even upon the top thereof until he was dead. And when they had hanged him until he was dead they did fell the tree to the earth, and did cry with a loud voice, saying:

Hmmm, so is this speaking about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and it being a type of Satan (or evil)?

(Rhetorical)

Interesting.

Read about this war, too, and look at the parallels between it and the one in Alma 43 and 44. Seems like it's giving even more details up-front about how it started.

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Partaking of the forbidden fruit indeed was a transgression. It violated a law or it would not have brought about the fall.

We essentially partake of the forbidden fruit when we choose against God's will, but we do it with full knowledge of the consequense.

Yes Adam and Eve did act contrary to the recommendation of God by partaking of the Fruit. And the Fruit did have 2 effects on them. 1) it made them mortal, and 2) it opened their eyes and gave them understanding of good and evil (possibly the tree let them sense the light of Christ). But this was the plan. It occurred exactly as God planed it. If Adam had not partaken of the Fruit, then Gods plan would have truly been frustrated.

Are you saying that Adam and Eve literally partook of the fruit and the we figuratively partake of the fruit? I think that we inherited the knowledge of good and evil because we were born from imperfect mortal parents. I believe that Adam and Eve were innocent because they were created as mortals from perfect parents.

Here's is where we part ways. I don't believe Adam and Eve had the same Father. There are scriptures that indicate Eve's seed wasn't necessarily in the same class as Adam's seed, or that they were on a different generation.

Woah Nelly, your gonna have to back that one up. The only thing that I have ever read that comes close to what you are implying is Wilford Woodruff quoting Brigham Young saying, "Mother Eve was a daughter of Adam" Which sounds like nonsense to me much like alot of the Adam-God theory that has been rejected by both contempories of Brigham Young and Modern Prophets.

The status of the "Adam-God theory" was summed up in 1897 in a private letter outlined by President Wilford Woodruff and written by Apostle Joseph F. Smith:

President Young no doubt expressed his personal opinion or views upon the subject. What he said was not given as revelation or commandment from the Lord. The doctrine was never submitted to the councils of the Priesthood nor to the Church for approval or ratification, and was never formally or otherwise accepted by the Church. It is therefore in no sense binding upon the Church.

In 1976 President Spencer W. Kimball stated the following:

We wam you against the dissemination of doctrines which are not according to the scriptures and which are alleged to have been taught by some of the General Authorities of past generations. Such for instance is the Adam-God theory. We denounce that theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine (Church News, Oct. 9, 1976).

Eve was born of an immortal Mother and a mortal father. Her body was born immortal with the ability to become mortal.

Where do you get this from? I've never heard this argument before.

If Adam was born mortal there would be no need for a fall.

I think you misunderstood my idea of how Adam was born, and how the Fall was 'set-up'.

1) Immortal Bodies only produce spirits

2) Thus to create Adam and Eve the Gods had to become mortals.

3) God and His Wife(s) came to Earth partook of the Tree of KoG&E.

4) While God and His Wife(s) were mortal they had sexual relations and produced Adam and then Eve. Its possible that God could have used 2 of his plural wives to create here. Thus Adam and Eve could have had different mothers but they had the same father and they were NOT conceived in sin. Their parents were Gods which had been sealed together and who were perfect. Because of this unique type of parentage, Adam and Eve were born innocent.

5) In order to set up the Fall, God then introduced the Fruit of the Tree of Life into Adam and Eve at a very early age. Adam and Eve were then converted into immortals and yet were innocent. Now they are ready for the fall.

Edited by mikbone
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