Believe, Works, and Faith


Justice
 Share

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 365
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

aj4u, your mind has been very closed during our discussions.

Let me ask you this, do you believe you know all things?

Of course the answer is no. So, if you believe you don't know all things, then I'd suggest approaching scripture discussions with more of an open mind... and heart.

You said you were once in a cult. What made you realize the cult you were in did not teach truth? You had to believe it was true at one time. Do you think you went right from being deceived to having ultimate and all truth about Christ and the scriptures?

Here are the words of a Book of Mormon prophet about this principle:

2 Nephi 28:

30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.

I think the truth you have now was to get you away from the cult and those false teachings so you can realize that we can be deceived. Don't waste the lesson.

If you want to open your heart and mind and listen to what modern prophets, Apostles, and scriptures teach about Jesus Christ, I'd be glad to show you their words and discuss them with you. But, if you are content with this new truth you have and only having the Bible, then I don't think there is anything I can help you with.

There is no harm in learning new ideas. Trust God to reveal which ones are true. Don't shut them out before the Spirit can reveal whether or not they are true.

I can show you MORE words of Jesus Christ, and more prophets who spoke to Him and loved Him. If that interests you, then open your mind and let's discuss it. If not, we're just running around in circles.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What I am understanding is this:

For Christians anything less than being with Christ in the eternities is hell. We may call it by another name, but being with Christ is what they consider salvation. I think what we call exaltation is what they call salvation...There are websites that outline the difference.

Here is how I see grace, mercy, being saved:

Hearing leads to believing which leads to faith unto repentance. This process takes us to embracing the atonement and a spiritual rebirth. You become a new creature and allow Christ to work through you. You are continually saved from sin by accepting the blood of Christ. You cannot boast in any works you manifest because they are all a manifestation of Christ.

At the judgment Christ pays the price for justice for those who lay claim to his mercy.

I feel like it is pretty easy to understand. But maybe I've just made it more confusing...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

According to Jim's theology -- at least, if I'm understanding him correctly -- most people were created for hell.

".....most people were created for hell."

Vort, you know that is not what I said. You tell me where I ever said people were created for hell. I would like to know your source. Let me say again. Most people in their lifetime will have been exposed numerous times with the details about salvation. Most of these people will for some reason reject Jesus. On the other hand, a few will accept Jesus into their heart, surrender themselves to Jesus and be saved. The road to salvation is difficult and narrow. The road to hell is easy and wide. Each lost soul is a tragedy.

Let me be clear. If you die without having been born again, your name will not be in the book of life. You will be seperated from God and your destination is hell. Hell is a very real reality and hell is where most will go. People were not created to go there. They chose to go by not accepting Jesus. This is why we need to work as hard as we can to help our brothers and sisters to see the Light. Salvation is not automatic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If the Calvinist teaching is taken to an extreme then one might say most people were created for hell. Jim clearly isn't going there, though. I'm doubtful that even most Calvinists would frame the teaching in such a way. However one may disagree with a system of teaching, every Christian group I know of believes that God is just.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

aj4u, your mind has been very closed during our discussions..

Whua???

Let me ask you this, do you believe you know all things?

Of course the answer is no. So, if you believe you don't know all things, then I'd suggest approaching scripture discussions with more of an open mind... and heart..

Justice, this post of yours patronizes me and starts off presumptuously and ends the every same way. You ask me a question and answer it for me, and then you offer suggestions.

You said you were once in a cult. What made you realize the cult you were in did not teach truth? You had to believe it was true at one time. Do you think you went right from being deceived to having ultimate and all truth about Christ and the scriptures?.

No, The end-time prophet David gave us modern interpretation of scripture and new wine from God. God put it on my heart to chuck what did not line up with the Bible. I took a step of faith doing this and it paid off.

Here are the words of a Book of Mormon prophet about this principle:

2 Nephi 28:

30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have. .

That simply sounds like someone has paraphrased part of the Bible.

I think the truth you have now was to get you away from the cult and those false teachings so you can realize that we can be deceived. Don't waste the lesson..

What makes you think I am wasting it? Is it because I am not agreeing with you?

If you want to open your heart and mind and listen to what modern prophets, Apostles, and scriptures teach about Jesus Christ, I'd be glad to show you their words and discuss them with you. But, if you are content with this new truth you have and only having the Bible, then I don't think there is anything I can help you with..

You haven't given any reason to believe that you have something to offer me other than your misunderstanding of faith and works in relationship to eternal life. You haven't even convinced me that you really know Jesus. Who is Jesus to you? I asked you that question and you didn't answer it.

There is no harm in learning new ideas. Trust God to reveal which ones are true. Don't shut them out before the Spirit can reveal whether or not they are true..

Says who? God has given me the Bible. I haven't even scratched the surface of all I can learn from that alone. Why do I need more. It is like giving someone truths as numerous as the sands of the sea to understand in this life and telling him "By the way, here are some more new truths"

I can show you MORE words of Jesus Christ, and more prophets who spoke to Him and loved Him. If that interests you, then open your mind and let's discuss it. If not, we're just running around in circles.

Please speak for yourself. You may be running in circles, I have a destination. Did it ever occur to you that I am a wise man who has learned from his mistake; therefore, my experience is not wasted. Let me now leave you with this: A wise man learns from his mistakes; a wiser man still, learns from the mistakes of others! Edited by aj4u
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do not want to get into anything... I am honestly asking whay you would want to be on this site aj4u???? It seems you do not want anything offered so please explain???

He's proselyting, at least that's the sense I get and I can't really begrudge him that.

Edited by Dravin
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If the Calvinist teaching is taken to an extreme then one might say most people were created for hell. Jim clearly isn't going there, though. I'm doubtful that even most Calvinists would frame the teaching in such a way. However one may disagree with a system of teaching, every Christian group I know of believes that God is just.

Yes, God is just and hell is real.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do not want to get into anything... I am honestly asking whay you would want to be on this site aj4u???? It seems you do not want anything offered so please explain???

Wait a minute. Lets back up a little please. What would make you think that I came on here just to be offered things and not give anything. Are you implying, I don't have anything to offer? Moreover, what makes you think that I cannot receive or take anything offered. Is because I haven't agreed with some of the posts? What exactly is it you're wanting me to explain?:o
Link to comment
Share on other sites

He's proselyting, at least that's the sense I get and I can't really begrudge him that.

Thank you Dravin. I preceive you have spoken truth, but isn't that what we are all doing, and isn't that what God wants us to do? :) I am actually learning a lot on here even though I present challenges. I don't think there is anyone afraid of challenges. I am not, and I am looking to challenge my faith. Because of challenges like these, I have grown in my faith. I am hoping others can grow in theirs as well. Edited by aj4u
I was gaving the wrong impression
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is very interesting. May I ask what your giftings are and what is your religious persuasion?

I was born and raised Catholic, but I didn't remain Catholic although all my family remains Catholic. They don't understand that I just prefer to identify myself as a simple Christian with no denominational affiliation whatsoever.

I have been involved in a cult; so, I know deception when I see it. I thank God for His deliverance. I am an artist and a musician. I am also a licensed public school teacher.

Working in Scouting.

With the youth and with the Scout leadership.

As a Sunday School Teacher.

Taking care of the Church grounds and building.

Talking with visitors.

Working in the library.

Anywhere the Lord wanted me to work.

In most places I was found gifted to the work.

Some say I can carry a fair tune singing, butchering a song using a guitar as an accomplice.

Yes, I did some time in the R.C.C. along with most of my family.

I come from a long line of Catholics.

I have been a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints from the time I was 12.

Even though I was a Deacon at 13

And the office of a Teacher at 14,

I got "Saved" when I was a little over 18.

And not called to the Office of Priest til I was almost 20.

Don't mean much to you I am sure but there is a story in there.

I Love the Lord Jesus Christ.

I Love what He has done for me.

I am Saved and I will do what ever I can.

Not to pay Him back. I can't.

Not to earn any degree of Heaven.

I can't

But I will receive whatever He will give me.

And it will be a gift for I haven't done very much under my own power as any power I have had for the last 40 years has been from Him not counting the gift of my life from the beginning which most people receive anyway which I threw away in my youth.

I know my time is on lone much more then most.

But I get by.

In Jesus Christ for sure.

Amen

Bro. Rudick

Link to comment
Share on other sites

every Christian group I know of believes that God is just.

"Just" is a matter of opinion though. Some people think God is just if He pre-determines who will suffer for an eternity by giving them no choice, whether before or after He creates them really makes no difference. They think since God is God He has a "do whatever He wants" badge and gets away with anything, even breaking law.

One thing they fail to realize is that God aligns His will to eternal law by choice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Working in Scouting.

With the youth and with the Scout leadership.

As a Sunday School Teacher.

Taking care of the Church grounds and building.

Talking with visitors.

Working in the library.

Anywhere the Lord wanted me to work.

In most places I was found gifted to the work.

Some say I can carry a fair tune singing, butchering a song using a guitar as an accomplice.

Yes, I did some time in the R.C.C. along with most of my family.

I come from a long line of Catholics.

I have been a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints from the time I was 12.

Even though I was a Deacon at 13

And the office of a Teacher at 14,

I got "Saved" when I was a little over 18.

And not called to the Office of Priest til I was almost 20.

Don't mean much to you I am sure but there is a story in there.

I Love the Lord Jesus Christ.

I Love what He has done for me.

I am Saved and I will do what ever I can.

Not to pay Him back. I can't.

Not to earn any degree of Heaven.

I can't

But I will receive whatever He will give me.

And it will be a gift for I haven't done very much under my own power as any power I have had for the last 40 years has been from Him not counting the gift of my life from the beginning which most people receive anyway which I threw away in my youth.

I know my time is on lone much more then most.

But I get by.

In Jesus Christ for sure.

Amen

Bro. Rudick

It sounds like you have been around. I like the things you share. By the way, did you listen to the songs I wrote and played on youtube?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It sounds like you have been around. I like the things you share. By the way, did you listen to the songs I wrote and played on youtube?

Sorry I miss them.

I have dialup and it takes "years" kist to bring up a page.

Not my confusers fault.

Just a bad line.

Someday I will be able to get a broadband card for my PC and then I will be able to enjoy youtube;)

Bro. Rudick

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Just" is a matter of opinion though. Some people think God is just if He pre-determines who will suffer for an eternity by giving them no choice, whether before or after He creates them really makes no difference. They think since God is God He has a "do whatever He wants" badge and gets away with anything, even breaking law.

One thing they fail to realize is that God aligns His will to eternal law by choice.

I can identify with that you have spoken. God is not just just Justice. He is all just, and He is mericful that means not giving us what is just, and God is Love. He so beautifully balances all of His attributes. Praise God!

All puns intended.

Edited by aj4u
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You ask me a question and answer it for me

You know, you're right. I shouldn't answer questions for people. I should ask and let them answer. I really didn't have any ill-intent. I just assumed no one would answer this question yes. But, I shouldn't speak for you. I should let you answer.

Do you know everything?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

".....most people were created for hell."

Vort, you know that is not what I said. You tell me where I ever said people were created for hell. I would like to know your source.

Forgive me, Jim. As I wrote before, I could be mistaken. It appears I was.

You did not say those words, but my understanding of what you wrote was that what I wrote was the logical extension of your beliefs:

1. God created all men.

2. God created men as he did because he wished to do so.

3. Because of #1 and #2, God could have created men differently, but chose not to.

4. Most men will dwell eternally in a hell of indescribable agony.

5. Because of #3 and #4, God clearly chose to create men in such a manner that the majority of them will dwell in indescribable eternal agony, when he might have chosen to create man otherwise.

If I have misunderstood or mischaracterized any of your beliefs, please let me know.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

aj4u... my question wasn't coded.... I honestly wanted to know your purpose. Why are you on a forum you so much disagree with. I honestly just wondered. I did not intend to offend just wanted an honest simple answer to an honest simple question........

Edited by prospectmom
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hell was not created for people

May I ask who it was created for if not people? All dogs go to heaven, so was hell created for cats????

All of the heavens and hells were created for the peoples who will eventually dwell there. Salvation is to be saved from the 2nd death, an immortal experience outside the presence of the Godhead and its glory.

Those who believe in TULIP do not directly state certain things, but Calvin basically did in his teachings. Only those individuals preselected for salvation will be saved, with all others preselected for hell.

St Augustine was not a Calvinist, but saw a similar problem in his understanding of the scriptures. He saw the need for baptism, and therefore insisted babies needed baptism, or if they died without it, they would burn in hell forever. Many Christians who follow St Augustine's teachings have tried to find exceptions to this belief. The Catholics focused on Limbo for centuries, so as to not allow babies to burn eternally in hell. However, that is non-doctrinal, so the current Pope has rescinded the belief in Limbo, and so the Catholics are now stuck with figuring it out again before anymore babies burn.

This is the problem of having the philosophies of men mingled with scripture. Prophets speak the mind and will of God, and have explained that little children do not need baptism, but are saved in Christ (Moroni 8). And we are taught by prophets that men have agency to choose, and that God has chosen to save almost all of mankind, except for those who fully reject Him and become like the devil. God does not prejudge nor preselect anyone. Each is given a fair chance at returning in grace.

AJ4U has the misconception that any or all beliefs are valid and invalid at the same time. Such relativity means that nothing is real. If everyone is a winner, then there is no such thing as winning. There must be opposition in all things (2 Nephi 2) otherwise there is no God, and there is no way any of us can choose for ourselves. Hell was created for people because it is the people who will make it hell. We create our own heaven or hell by what we choose to become. If we choose to become Christ-like, then we will feel happy and blessed dwelling with God. If we choose to hate righteous things and love the darkness, then we will prefer hell over heaven.

The concept of irresistible grace is not found in the scriptures. The concept of choice is. Jesus spent his entire ministry calling people to repentance and faith. Why do so if people are already predestined to heaven or hell? The TULIP dogma has so many holes in it, that Jesus could drive a semi-truck through it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

. . . Hell was created for people because it is the people who will make it hell. We create our own heaven or hell by what we choose to become. If we choose to become Christ-like, then we will feel happy and blessed dwelling with God. If we choose to hate righteous things and love the darkness, then we will prefer hell over heaven.

The concept of irresistible grace is not found in the scriptures. The concept of choice is. Jesus spent his entire ministry calling people to repentance and faith. Why do so if people are already predestined to heaven or hell? The TULIP dogma has so many holes in it, that Jesus could drive a semi-truck through it.

Not picking on you Rameumptom just did not know who to bounce off of:p

No, :Hell" was not created for people.

People were never meant go to "Hell".

Sorry:D

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left

hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared

for the devil and his angels:. . .

But stuff happens:eek:

Isaiah 5:11 Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning,

that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night,

till wine inflame them!

Isaiah 5:12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe,

and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of

the LORD, neither consider the operation of his hands.

Isaiah 5:13 Therefore my people are gone into captivity,

because they have no knowledge: and their honourable men are

famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst.

Isaiah 5:14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened

her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude,

and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

Bro. Rudick

Edited by JohnnyRudick
Spelling;)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share