Believe, Works, and Faith

[Justice]

I know some see charity as giving. It CAN mean both we can compromise on this. It is written, "Now abides faith hope and charity the greatest of these is charity." Why? because it means Love!

Anyway, we can compromise that it means love as well...

LOL

How is saying charity is the same as love a compromise?

You say charity is love.

I say charity and love is not the same thing.

You say, let's compromise and say charity is love.

LOL

I do love your spirit though. You try very hard to get me to understand your views.

aj4u, I'm going to say something that you're not going to believe. I do understand your views.

I will explain what charity is in my next post.

[TruthSeekerToo]

I'm looking forward to seeing how charity is not love since the scriptures teach that charity is the pure love of Christ. I have been taught that my whole life (in the LDS church).

[Justice]

Charity is the kind of love Father in Heaven has for us. It is the kind of love Jesus emulated perfectly and showed us.

John 3:

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

You are familiar with this scripture?

Now, if that scripture looked like this:

John 3:

16 For God so loved the world.

That would be love. Love implies feelings, and is not magnified or shown, but simply felt.

When you add this:

John 3:

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son.

Now it becomes charity.

Charity is an active love and requires works.

Just as faith without works is dead (it becomes belief), so charity without works is dead (it becomes love).

Charity is the greatest of all, because it means we love so much we give with no thought of reward, nor do we care about the cost to us. It is the love that leads to sacrifice.

Edited May 15, 2009 by Justice

[Justice]

I'm looking forward to seeing how charity is not love since the scriptures teach that charity is the pure love of Christ. I have been taught that my whole life (in the LDS church).

Yes, it is the way Christ loved, "the pure love of Christ."

He didn't just walk around saying He loved people, or even just sincerely love others in His heart. He showed them. He gave everything because He loved. He gave of Himself everyday in every situation. He gave, gave, gave, and when He was exhausted, He gave some more.

[TruthSeekerToo]

Ahhhh, I see what you are doing.

Charity is love in action.

[JohnnyRudick]

Jesus is the God of the Old Testament, Jehova. The Father has made precious few recored vistis to earth, usually only by voice (like at Jesus' baptism).

Thanks

John 12:27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say?

Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto

this hour.

John 12:28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice

from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify

it again.

John 12:29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it,

said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.

John 12:30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because

of me, but for your sakes.

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the

prince of this world be cast out.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw

all men unto me.

Praise God;)

Bro. Rudick

Edited May 15, 2009 by JohnnyRudick
Afterthought;-)

[Justice]

Ahhhh, I see what you are doing.

Charity is love in action.

It took me years for that to click.

Yes, indeed, it is.

Isn't it interesting how deep the Gospel is rooted in works?

Belief + works = Faith

Love + works = Charity

I even believe:

Humility + works = Meekness

Works of humility? Yeah, that one is a little harder, but I have reasoned it out in my mind.

[Justice]

Elohim is also used in the Garden.

Ahh, yes, I meant to say "mortal earth" (or after the fall). Afterall, that's what the fall was... a fall from the presence of the Father. It was necessary in oder to be redeemed.

Edited May 15, 2009 by Justice

[JohnnyRudick]

Thank you, it is very complicated and I respect your view.

Actualy very straight forward.

Note, he said that the modern view of God is from a scholastic group of Bible Correctors. (my words:))

Complicated?

Another writer wrote

"Angels are created spiritual beings only. They are not created flesh and blood as we are nor do we turn into angels. If you think that, you are in error not knowing the Scriptures. Angels are forces of energy that with God's permission change into human like beings, but they cannot and will not be judged like humans or treated the same. They cannot become the sons of God. They are strictly messengers. Human are more than just messengers. . .":confused:

Now where in the Bible did he learn that?

That is right out of Catechism.

And then relearned in most of the churches that came out of that organization and brought that teaching with them:eek:

Yes, we love the Scriptures and we try to stick to them.

And that includes the Bible.

But the teachings of man as in the above doctrine and others. . .

Bro. Rudick

[JohnnyRudick]

If it is complicated, that is my fault. I apologize.

Like I said though, we deny the Nicine Creed. That is the most difficult part I think.

BTW: we deny the common concepts of Heaven and Hell as well, so I guess you are wandering through new territory altogether, huh?

How about this one: boiled down, after the resurrection, we are still just people. People with goals, aspirations, hopes, dreams, and jobs to do. People with bodies (I wonder if we'll still itch?).

Harps and clouds??? Bah! Who wants them. Give me a rake any day. I'm sure the leaves will still fall in the autumn.

And if you are lookin' for a job to do and the Father wants to send you to a world to deliver a message, (since ya got tired sittin' on a cloud:p) I guess you would be called a messenger from the Father.

An Angel;)

Bro. Rudick

[TruthSeekerToo]

It took me years for that to click.

Yes, indeed, it is.

Isn't it interesting how deep the Gospel is rooted in works?

Belief + works = Faith

Love + works = Charity

I even believe:

Humility + works = Meekness

Works of humility? Yeah, that one is a little harder, but I have reasoned it out in my mind.

Yeah, I think that is going to be my new favorite saying.

I do think my mind works different then yours, though. I believe that faith creates works naturally. I don't think adding works to belief creates faith. I also believe that pure Christlike love with move a person to works. I see works as a natural expression of faith and charity.

When I see your formula I feel like you believe that the works will produce faith and charity.

IMO, you can do works without faith or charity BUT you cannot have faith or charity without works being manifest.

[JohnnyRudick]

Yeah, I think that is going to be my new favorite saying.

I do think my mind works different then yours, though. I believe that faith creates works naturally. I don't think adding works to belief creates faith. I also believe that pure Christlike love with move a person to works. I see works as a natural expression of faith and charity.

When I see your formula I feel like you believe that the works will produce faith and charity.

IMO, you can do works without faith or charity BUT you cannot have faith or charity without works being manifest.

Hence, Christ working in us . . .

Well

Makes it a lot easier;)

Bro. Rudick

[TruthSeekerToo]

Hence, Christ working in us . . .

Well

Makes it a lot easier;)

Bro. Rudick

That's the miracle, isn't it! It's all Him.

[aj4u]

Yes, it is the way Christ loved, "the pure love of Christ."

He didn't just walk around saying He loved people, or even just sincerely love others in His heart. He showed them. He gave everything because He loved. He gave of Himself everyday in every situation. He gave, gave, gave, and when He was exhausted, He gave some more.

Therefore, Charity is Love. Give it up Justice.

If your going to disagree with me at least have a point:rolleyes:I think I understand the point your trying to make if your saying love in action! When I said love, I meant it in action otherwise it is not love! Love is not feeling! (As I mentioned, that is faith that worketh by love)

Edited May 15, 2009 by aj4u

[aj4u]

Hence, Christ working in us . . .

Well

Makes it a lot easier;)

Bro. Rudick

Truth Seeker too and you are having constructive dialogue. Good job.

[aj4u]

Ahhhh, I see what you are doing.

Charity is love in action.

I THINK i agree with that! If that is what Justice means, I mostly agree! But it is more than that still, if we are wanting to be technical. It is faith that works by love in God who is Love in action that makes the significant difference spiritually, because there are not only different types and love; there are different faiths as well. Even the ungodly can love a friend in action, but that doesn't make a right standing with

G-d!

Edited May 15, 2009 by aj4u

[aj4u]

Charity is the kind of love Father in Heaven has for us. It is the kind of love Jesus emulated perfectly and showed us.

John 3:

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

You are familiar with this scripture?

Now, if that scripture looked like this:

John 3:

16 For God so loved the world.

That would be love. Love implies feelings, and is not magnified or shown, but simply felt.

QUOTE]Love (Agape) does not imply a feeling to me. Nothing could be further from the truth. Love is an action that may or may not accompany fellings. People put too much weight on or in feelings. As I mentioned, they make wonderful servants but very poor leaders. One is either lead by feelings or faith. WADR, which is it for you and who on earth is teaching you this stuff?

Edited May 15, 2009 by aj4u

[JohnnyRudick]

Therefore, Charity is Love. Give it up Justice.

If your going to disagree with me at least have a point:rolleyes:I think I understand the point your trying to make if your saying love in action! When I said love, I meant it in action otherwise it is not love! Love is not feeling!

Yeah, from what you have been writing some of us most likely assumed you meant that but you have heard these people running around saying "Charity is Love, Charity is Love, Charity is Love and not have the slightest idea what they are talking about.

Right?

Justice ws just using this to teach.

And a good lessen it was, don't ya think?

Aw, common:)

It was good, Right:D

Bro. Rudick

[JohnnyRudick]

I THINK i agree with that! If that is what Justice means, I mostly agree! But it is more than that still, if we are wanting to be technical. It is faith that works by love in God who is Love in action that makes the significant difference spiritually, because there are not only different types and love; there are different faiths as well. Even the ungodly can love a friend in action, but that doesn't make a right standing with

G-d!

Awwwwwwwwww,

There ya go:disenchanted:

He did point out a very important fact that most miss you gotta admit:o

Bro. Rudick

[JohnnyRudick]

Charity is the kind of love Father in Heaven has for us. It is the kind of love Jesus emulated perfectly and showed us.

John 3:

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

You are familiar with this scripture?

Now, if that scripture looked like this:

John 3:

16 For God so loved the world.

That would be love. Love implies feelings, and is not magnified or shown, but simply felt.

When you add this:

John 3:

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son.

Now it becomes charity.

Charity is an active love and requires works.

Just as faith without works is dead (it becomes belief), so charity without works is dead (it becomes love).

Charity is the greatest of all, because it means we love so much we give with no thought of reward, nor do we care about the cost to us. It is the love that leads to sacrifice.

Well, I don't care what anyone thinks.

I really love this illustration.

Thanks again;)

Bro. Rudick

[aj4u]

Yeah, from what you have been writing some of us most likely assumed you meant that but you have heard these people running around saying "Charity is Love, Charity is Love, Charity is Love and not have the slightest idea what they are talking about.

Right?

Justice ws just using this to teach.

And a good lessen it was, don't ya think?

Aw, common:)

It was good, Right:D

Bro. Rudick

Yes, If you say so, but I was the first to bring up Charity is love and Justice was the first to say no it isn't. According to my understanding, there is no mistake about it. Are you wanting make something of it? Just joking:lol:You are loved:dude: Edited May 15, 2009 by aj4u

[Justice]

Yeah, I think that is going to be my new favorite saying.

I do think my mind works different then yours, though. I believe that faith creates works naturally. I don't think adding works to belief creates faith. I also believe that pure Christlike love with move a person to works. I see works as a natural expression of faith and charity.

When I see your formula I feel like you believe that the works will produce faith and charity.

IMO, you can do works without faith or charity BUT you cannot have faith or charity without works being manifest.

I know, many do. There are a lot of examples of what I'm saying.

D&C 9:

8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.

To get an answer you have to study it out. The study it out part is like works. If you just ask, without the study part, the spirit cannot work in you.

I believe God requires effort from us. If we take no effort then He cannot work in us and through us.

Consider this.

We have to have faith in Christ in order to receive salvation. If faith without works is dead, where does that leave you?

I think it's just a different understanding of when a person receives exaltation. For the vast majority of people I don't consider it given to them until "after the trial of their faith," or until they have "endured to the end" of their life.

To exercise faith in Christ we must do His works, or keep His commandments. We can easily tell when one is or isn't by what He does.

People can manifest faith in Christ before they are converted to Him. Our faith grows little by little, over years and years. If the works can only be manifest after one is converted, then in my opinion, true conversion could not take place. We learn with lesser things and grow with doing greater things. And, we learn by doing.

Sure, at first we cannot heal others, but we can pay our tithing until our faith increases enough to heal others.

When one is converted to Jesus Christ, he no longer desires evil and does the will of CHrist continually. To those of us who are on this path, I still say we can work the works of God, just lesser works, and repent when we fall.

[aj4u]

Yeah, from what you have been writing some of us most likely assumed you meant that but you have heard these people running around saying "Charity is Love, Charity is Love, Charity is Love and not have the slightest idea what they are talking about.

Right?

Justice ws just using this to teach.

And a good lessen it was, don't ya think?

Aw, common:)

It was good, Right:D

Bro. Rudick

I cannot believe that that one comment has gone this far. I am almost sorry I mentioned it:deadhorse:

[Justice]

Therefore, Charity is Love. Give it up Justice.

If your going to disagree with me at least have a point:rolleyes:I think I understand the point your trying to make if your saying love in action! When I said love, I meant it in action otherwise it is not love! Love is not feeling!

Sometimes I just wanna give up.

MWH (Merriam-Webster on-line)

Main Entry: love

Function: noun

1 a (1): strong affection for another arising out of kinship or personal ties <maternal love for a child> (2): attraction based on sexual desire : affection and tenderness felt by lovers (3): affection based on admiration, benevolence, or common interests <love for his old schoolmates> b: an assurance of love <give her my love>

2: warm attachment, enthusiasm, or devotion <love of the sea>

3 a: the object of attachment, devotion, or admiration <baseball was his first love> b (1): a beloved person : darling —often used as a term of endearment (2)British —used as an informal term of address

4 a: unselfish loyal and benevolent concern for the good of another: as (1): the fatherly concern of God for humankind (2): brotherly concern for others b: a person's adoration of God

5: a god or personification of love

6: an amorous episode : love affair

7: the sexual embrace : copulation

No where in the definition of love is there any indication that action is required to feel love.

Love is a feeling, and as it so clearly points out, love is a noun, not a verb.

Charity, when describing the love Christ taught, is a verb.

Your mind is so closed to everything I say, even when you agree. I've never seen anything like it.

Main Entry: char·i·ty

1: benevolent goodwill toward or love of humanity

2 a: generosity and helpfulness especially toward the needy or suffering ; also : aid given to those in need b: an institution engaged in relief of the poor c: public provision for the relief of the needy

3 a: a gift for public benevolent purposes b: an institution (as a hospital) founded by such a gift

4: lenient judgment of others

The love of Christ (charity) is best described in 2a. However, this goodwill and generosity must be motivated by pure love in order to be charity.

Edited May 15, 2009 by Justice

[aj4u]

A cult is a group of people who share a common belief. I think you're trying to say "occult."

Christ and His followers were considered "occult" by both the world and by God's people (Jews).

John 10:

19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.

20 And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?

21 Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind?

Mark 3:

22 And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.

When I use the term cult, I mean it just as bad as it being the occult eventhough there is a difference.