Believe, Works, and Faith

[Justice]

I cannot believe that that one comment has gone this far. I am almost sorry I mentioned it:deadhorse:

Well, you tell someone their interpretation of the scripture is wrong, and offer your interpretation. They show you how they are right, to which you seem to agree, and all you can say is, "Oh, I understand it that way too, I didn't know that's what you meant."

Well, why did you tell me I was wrong if you agreed?

It really gets frustrating trying to talk things over with you. All you have said it "you're wrong, I disagree, that's wrong, you don't know what you're talking about, etc."

I've never given up talking to anyone before... but I'm closer than I ever have been.

Edited May 15, 2009 by Justice

[aj4u]

First, I'd like to see your sources for your statements about angels, men, and God..

You were one of the the first to bring it up. There burden is on you to give the sources.

Then, I'd like to see your sources that state man was not alive as spirits before he came here..

I'd like to see yours from the Bible.

Then, I'd like to hear your opinion as to what physical death is.

Are you serious?

[Justice]

When I use the term cult, I mean it just as bad as it being the occult eventhough there is a difference.

I know you do. Most people do.

My point?

I thought it was obvious.

I'm trying to help you by showing you what it really mean. To which you basically say, "I'm going to use the terms my way, even though I know it doesn't mean that, and just expect everyone will know what I'm talking about."

You see what I'm saying?

Can you see why it might be difficult for me to carry on a conversation with you?

[TruthSeekerToo]

I know, many do. There are a lot of examples of what I'm saying.

D&C 9:

8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.

To get an answer you have to study it out. The study it out part is like works. If you just ask, without the study part, the spirit cannot work in you.

I believe God requires effort from us. If we take no effort then He cannot work in us and through us.

Very true. I do think repentance, prayer, study are works that help us towards our conversion. I also know that you can get different answers depending on if you have "studied it out" or not. So, yes, very important.

Consider this.

We have to have faith in Christ in order to receive salvation. If faith without works is dead, where does that leave you?

I think it's just a different understanding of when a person receives exaltation. For the vast majority of people I don't consider it given to them until "after the trial of their faith," or until they have "endured to the end" of their life.

I believe the "refiner's fire" is crucial to true conversion and sanctification.

To exercise faith in Christ we must do His works, or keep His commandments. We can easily tell when one is or isn't by what He does.

People can manifest faith in Christ before they are converted to Him. Our faith grows little by little, over years and years. If the works can only be manifest after one is converted, then in my opinion, true conversion could not take place. We learn with lesser things and grow with doing greater things. And, we learn by doing.

Sure, at first we cannot heal others, but we can pay our tithing until our faith increases enough to heal others.

When one is converted to Jesus Christ, he no longer desires evil and does the will of CHrist continually. To those of us who are on this path, I still say we can work the works of God, just lesser works, and repent when we fall.

I've got some more thoughts, but can't articulate them...yet. I think you've brought up some very good points, but I can still see some difference in our conclusions.

[Justice]

You were one of the the first to bring it up. There burden is on you to give the sources.

I did not bring up the relationship between man, God, and angels. I did not say one word even remotely about it until I asked you to explain your views.

I'd like to see yours from the Bible.

You first, since I asked first. :)

Are you serious?

I'm very serious. I don't think you really know what physical death is based on your posts. So, to either show me I'm right or wrong, I'd like to see what you believe it to be.

[Justice]

I've got some more thoughts, but can't articulate them...yet. I think you've brought up some very good points, but I can still see some difference in our conclusions.

Fair enough. I think we are closer than you might think. Sometimes it's just getting across the divide of background, study preferences, dialect, word uses, and just plain ol' understanding to get there. I'm willing if you are.

[TruthSeekerToo]

Fair enough. I think we are closer than you might think. Sometimes it's just getting across the divide of background, study preferences, dialect, word uses, and just plain ol' understanding to get there. I'm willing if you are.

I totally agree. Words seem so inadequate(sp?) at times.

[aj4u]

I totally agree. Words seem so inadequate(sp?) at times.

Yes, I agree!

[aj4u]

Well, you tell someone their interpretation of the scripture is wrong, and offer your interpretation. They show you how they are right, to which you seem to agree, and all you can say is, "Oh, I understand it that way too, I didn't know that's what you meant."

Well, why did you tell me I was wrong if you agreed?

It really gets frustrating trying to talk things over with you. All you have said it "you're wrong, I disagree, that's wrong, you don't know what you're talking about, etc."

I've never given up talking to anyone before... but I'm closer than I ever have been.

Take easy we don't want to loose you here. Let me try and explain. I agree with charity being love in action, but I said, to be technical it is more than that. I didn't say it was wrong. I simply elaborated on it. What i disagreed with was your saying the love implies a feeling. I said not to me. Love is an action that is if your referring to the purest sense of the word like I was. Otherwise, love is not love! I hope this clarifies the issue once and for all.

[JohnnyRudick]

I know, many do. There are a lot of examples of what I'm saying.

D&C 9:

8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.

To get an answer you have to study it out. The study it out part is like works. If you just ask, without the study part, the spirit cannot work in you.

I believe God requires effort from us. If we take no effort then He cannot work in us and through us.

Consider this.

We have to have faith in Christ in order to receive salvation. If faith without works is dead, where does that leave you?

I think it's just a different understanding of when a person receives exaltation. For the vast majority of people I don't consider it given to them until "after the trial of their faith," or until they have "endured to the end" of their life.

To exercise faith in Christ we must do His works, or keep His commandments. We can easily tell when one is or isn't by what He does.

People can manifest faith in Christ before they are converted to Him. Our faith grows little by little, over years and years. If the works can only be manifest after one is converted, then in my opinion, true conversion could not take place. We learn with lesser things and grow with doing greater things. And, we learn by doing.

Sure, at first we cannot heal others, but we can pay our tithing until our faith increases enough to heal others.

When one is converted to Jesus Christ, he no longer desires evil and does the will of CHrist continually. To those of us who are on this path, I still say we can work the works of God, just lesser works, and repent when we fall.

I cam remember telling my Branch President one time, "I just don't feel much like praying lately."

He replied, just pray till ya do.

I did.

It worked:)

Mark 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all

things are possible to him that believeth.

Mark 9:24 And straightway the father of the child cried out,

and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

Bro. Rudick

[the Ogre]

Take easy we don't want to loose you here. Let me try and explain. I agree with charity being love in action, but I said, to be technical it is more than that. I didn't say it was wrong. I simply elaborated on it. What i disagreed with was your saying the love implies a feeling. I said not to me. Love is an action that is if your referring to the purest sense of the word like I was. Otherwise, love is not love! I hope this clarifies the issue once and for all.

So love as a verb rather then as a noun.

[JohnnyRudick]

When I use the term cult, I mean it just as bad as it being the occult eventhough there is a difference.

Oh, OK:ahhh:

Bro. Rudick

[the Ogre]

When I use the term cult, I mean it just as bad as it being the occult eventhough there is a difference.

You know what, this is one of the silliest things I have ever heard. Loads of nice, kind, American Chr-stians think Latter-day Saints are a bunch of brainwashed cultists. All 13 million of us.

I think drawing comparisons between the occult and Latter-day Saints is dangerous. Don't you?

[aj4u]

Until I tell you they are different beings entirely. They are not part of some incomprehensible physical bond or make-up. They are one in purpose and will, but not person. Jehova (Jesus Christ) is the Son of the Father... literally the Son of God.

... just like the Bible says.

You almost have it. Jesus and God are distinct in person. We agree; however, pay very close attention if you want the true understanding of Scritpture. They are more than just one in purpose and will. Jesus is the bursting forth of ALL God's glory. That is what proves He is distinct in person as the Son. Now, He is also the exact representation, stamp of all that God is in nature, essence and being. Before He was the Son; He was always the WORD of God. Jesus Christ in essense always was God. "The Word was God" Do you fully understand the ramification of this? Many on this forum have a lot of unlearning to do before this can be grasped. If you can understand this, you are well on your way to understanding that all the Scriptures are designed to do is point to Jesus the author and finisher of our faith. And G-d says AMEN!

References: Heb. 1

Edited May 15, 2009 by aj4u

[Vort]

You almost have it. Jesus and God are distinct in person. We agree; however, pay very close attention if you want the true understanding of Scritpture. They are more than just one in purpose and will. Jesus is the bursting forth of ALL God's glory.

The forum you are in is called "LDS Gospel Discussion", not "aj4u's Personal Gospel Theories Discussion". In this forum, it is expected that the true, revealed gospel of Jesus Christ (aka LDS doctrine) takes front and center stage.

You are, of course, welcome to pontificate to your heart's content, telling us how wrong our theology is and how Jesus is God's glory "bursting forth" or "erupting out" or "splitting open" or whatever terms you choose to employ. Believe and preach whatever you wish. But this forum is probably not the correct forum for such displays.

I suggest the Christian Beliefs Board, or perhaps General Discussion.

[aj4u]

Faith and works is not about our exaltation; it is about Christ and us being faithful servants and slaves to righteousness.

[the Ogre]

Sorry it took so long to get back to you, but that David Berg accusation took a little long to completely research (I never take wikipedia at face value). Comparing LDS prophets to David Berg is hilarious.

Before He was the Son; He was always the WORD of God. Jesus Christ in essense always was God.

Yep, that is your Hebrews thing. Gotcha. I simply reply it is nice to have modern prophets to make sure Paul is not confusing.

"The Word was God" Do you fully understand the ramification of this? This means Satan is not His spiritual brother; this means He is not your elder sibling (brother).

Whatever, "The Word of God" does not define what you think it does. What an odd connection. John 1.1 does not have anything to do with Satan. Do not use something you apparently do not understand to criticize LDS doctrine.

Many on this forum have a lot of unlearning to do before this can be grasp.

Oh and are you the great savior to teach us. Please shower me in thy mighty light from that mighty-mighty rameumpton stand. I wish I could be just like you. yes Yes YES!!!

If you can understand this, you are well on your way to understanding that all the Scripture are designed to do is point to Jesus the author and finisher of our faith.

References: Heb. 1

Yes, J-sus is the finisher of our faith, but who do you think you are jumping on all the unlearned on this forum? The next Joseph Smith maybe? I think you are the David Berg of this site.

If you chose to remain ignorant of LDS doctrine, why bother to come and post. It isn't like other saviors haven't come along with their whispered messages of "you just don't get it" craziness to teach us how we are screwed up.

Edited May 15, 2009 by the Ogre

[JohnnyRudick]

"First, I'd like to see your sources for your statements about angels, men, and God."

You were one of the the first to bring it up. There burden is on you to give the sources.

"Then, I'd like to see your sources that state man was not alive as spirits before he came here."

I'd like to see yours from the Bible.

"Then, I'd like to hear your opinion as to what physical death is."

Are you serious?

Jumping in here again:p

I pointed out before that the list of things somebody fired out earlier was not bible teaching.

It was those, those that so many of us grew up with and have just assumed were Bible teaching were actually thought up by scholarly men (church fathers)almost 2000 years ago in place of Bible doctrine.

You think that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is replacing Bible teaching with the teachings of men?

It had already been done:eek:

Now the Church of Jesus Christ has to set it right again even though you carry around the Book.

The Book that came from the Church of Jesus Christ to begin with.

I pointed out along with others that a man who moved on to live with Heavenly Father would get a little board sitting around on a cloud for a thou or so and Father would send him to deliver a message.

Don't you think you would like to do something more then sit on a cloud and just tell the Father how great He is for an endless array of Millenniums?

If not, I am sure you would get on His nerves after a while.

No, seriously.

The world has been given a load of goods by the church that had taken over the world for a long time.

Many came out of her but brought most of it out with them.

God Restored His Church.

He said He would need to and had it written in the Bible carried by them in hiding from the World Church and those who escaped. Many looked forward to this restoration.

Oh, And He did:)

Bro. Rudick

[the Ogre]

Faith and works is not about our exaltation; it is about Christ and us being faithful servants and slaves to righteousness.

Duh!?!

Ummm, mod dudes . . . how long has this troll been allowed to walk about?

Edited May 15, 2009 by the Ogre

[JohnnyRudick]

Originally Posted by aj4u View Post

"Many on this forum have a lot of unlearning to do before this can be grasp."

As I pointed out about the "unlearning" of the "doctrines of men" brought into all the earth of them who escaped the Universal Church.

Just because Rome says you are right, don't make it Bible doctrine.

Bro. Rudick

[Dravin]

Yep, that is your Hebrews thing. Gotcha. I simply reply it is nice to have modern prophets to make sure Paul is not confusing.

Heck, Peter said Paul can be confusing (2 Peter 3:16).

[aj4u]

Vort quotes me saying: "You almost have it. Jesus and God are distinct in person. We agree; however, pay very close attention if you want the true understanding of Scripture regarding this matter. They are more than just one in purpose and will. Jesus is the bursting forth of ALL God's glory." And in so many words he tells me that Biblical truth is not welcome on this forum, and that I should pontificate all I want, but this is not the place. Let me say this to Vort. WADR, I know this is an LDS forum, and I haven't broken any form rules. I said nothing disrespetful about Joseph Smith or any believer here. If you are threaten by Scriptural authority prehaps the problem is with you. I respect Justice, Bro Rudick and the others, because they welcome the challenge by trying to justify their doctrine. My purpose here is as I mentioned to be challenged and to challenge for the purpose of spiritual growth. I am growing in faith here so why aren't you?

Edited May 15, 2009 by aj4u

[the Ogre]

. . . I am growing in faith here so why aren't you?

Because you are pontificating. You are not involved in a dialogue or conversation when you obviously refuse to listen and refuse to educate yourself about whom you are speaking.

Stop thinking we are ignorant children.

Edited May 15, 2009 by the Ogre

[JohnnyRudick]

The forum you are in is called "LDS Gospel Discussion", not "aj4u's Personal Gospel Theories Discussion". In this forum, it is expected that the true, revealed gospel of Jesus Christ (aka LDS doctrine) takes front and center stage.

You are, of course, welcome to pontificate to your heart's content, telling us how wrong our theology is and how Jesus is God's glory "bursting forth" or "erupting out" or "splitting open" or whatever terms you choose to employ. Believe and preach whatever you wish. But this forum is probably not the correct forum for such displays.

I suggest the Christian Beliefs Board, or perhaps General Discussion.

It's OK Vort.

God's got him and he knows it.

He is squirming under the Holy Ghost's verification to him that what he is learning at this site is true and he just don't want to face it.

Jim is also feeling it.

So, I believe he protests just a little bit too much:p

Bro. Rudick

[aj4u]

Sorry it took so long to get back to you, but that David Berg accusation took a little long to completely research (I never take wikipedia at face value). Comparing LDS prophets to David Berg is hilarious. Yep, that is your Hebrews thing. Gotcha. I simply reply it is nice to have modern prophets to make sure Paul is not confusing.

If you chose to remain ignorant of LDS doctrine, why bother to come and post. It isn't like other saviors haven't come along with their whispered messages of "you just don't get it" craziness to teach us how we are screwed up.

The verses I specifically wrote down speaks of David Berg. I made no comparsion with Joseph Smith nor do I care to be Joseph eventhough that is my middle name or David on this forum. I was told that I needed to come up to the next level, and that is why I can't understand LDS doctrine. This seems like a good case of dishing it out but not being able to take it to me. I will modify that post if it brothers you. It is written"Great peace have they which love thy law and nothing shall offend them." Sorry if I came across offensively, that was not my intention. Now, I do have intention of understanding LDS doctrine. Who made you my judge, and for the sake of understanding, can you explain to me how Jesus can be the spiritual brother of His own creation (Satan) since you brought up my quotes? Another question, do you think I am screwed up? Edited May 15, 2009 by aj4u