AIS - and how it breaks my brain! Help needed.


interalia
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Hello all,

In the interest in continuing discussion on here and getting peaceful, thoughtful, and loving advice from others who share my general eternal goals, I'd like to talk about a controversial subject. I hope I will not be judged too harshly for this, but I need some help with something that has been very challenging to me of late.

Why do I believe that am I a guy? How have I been able to come to terms with the fact that I am male? What has given me added strength in living a male life, a life I feel I was supposed to have lived? The answer is simple. XY. Because I am XY, I believe I was intended for all intents and purposes to be male. Regardless of what happened in utero or how my brain came to be the way it is or how my gender identity was affected, I am not female, and I base this on the fact that I am XY. Being an intended male, I make a further jump that I am also an intended spiritual male. In other words, Heavenly Father intended for me to come to this earth to live a male life because I have a male spirit regardless of Telestial world defects that might arise. As a member of the church, it is my role and duty to receive the Priesthood, and take a female to marriage in the temple to provide tabernacles for future Spirit children.

This works out well for me, very well in fact. I began to feel some hope - some feeling of purpose to my situation. My job here, my challenge, was to learn to live a male life, and find joy therein because it is what God intended for me to have. This is based completely and totally on the fact that I have XY chromosomes.

Ok, now for AIS. Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome is an intersexed disorder that affects exclusively male fetuses. What happens is the XY male's genetics are altered in such a way that their cells do not develop androgen receptors. What does this mean? It means even in the presence of testosterone, the body will not react to it. What does this effect? Well dang near everything. These male children do not feel the effects of the testosterone their own fetal testes are producing. As such, their testes remain inside their bodies, their penis never properly develops and in fact remains inverted (though it is not a uterus). Their brains do not change as they should in the presence of testosterone, etc. At some point later in life their internal testes will begin to pump extreme amounts of testosterone (as does with most males) however that testosterone will have no effect - they will gain no male secondary sex characteristics. These children do not make it to puberty though, at least not as males. See the undeveloped male sex organ looks like a vagina to the untrained eye. These children are often misidentified at birth as females and raised as such. Often these individuals have NO idea they are actually males until puberty when they do not get a period, or worse, when they are trying to get pregnant. Despite the absence of ovaries, the male body still produces estrogen, just in lesser amounts, but without functional testosterone the counteract the effect, these boys develop female secondary sex characteristics as if you took a normal male child, put him on androgen blockers and pumped him full of estrogen before puberty. Thus, if you look at an AIS male, they appear just like females. The worst part is, that even if these AIS males, once revealed, wanted to try to be a male, it would be nearly impossible, as the only hormones that will work to masculinize their bodies will not work because of the same deformity that made them they way they are currently.

So what is my point? Why does AIS break my brain? Well the problem is, I, and most of the world, sees AIS males as females. Why? It is too convenient not to. They look female, they sound female, they are raised female, they have a vaginal opening, with no visible male genitalia. No one is going to question by looking at them or by sexual intercourse if they are female. It can only be questioned by looking at their chromosomes which stand out because they are XY. However this person, despite ALL appearances to the contrary, is, and was intended to be from birth, a male. However, due to the current society situation we are in, due to limited medical technology to treat such a condition or provide for early diagnosis, they are considered females.

So for me to be consistent in my reasoning that I am a male both physically and spiritually and was always intended to be so (which as I mentioned was based on the fact that I have XY chromosomes) I must also equally apply that fact to individuals with AIS. The difference is, the church sees them as female generally - even spiritually (though there has been no direct addressing of AIS, I'm sure it is handled on an individual basis) but the problem remains that many of these women don't even know they are actually men with an intersexed disorder. So my brain is breaking. It means that essentially some of Heavenly Father's male children are not able to receive the Priesthood, be fathers, and worse they are marrying other males in the temple!

You might tell me, oh all that will be worked out in the Millenium, and perhaps it will be.

Someone once told me that it might be possible that God placed a female spirit inside a male body. They said this to help justify why they might have a female gender identity. I told that person it was a ludicrous statement, that such would just be a source of confusion, and while I do believe confusion exists in this world, I don't believe God to be the author of it. As such I told them it was much more probable that God would never ever ever place the spirit of a female into the body of a male (or vice versa). But the implications of AIS break this mold. There ARE male spirits being born into (for all intents and purposes) female bodies.

Of course ALL of this is based upon my original premise that we are spiritually what we are chromosomally. This is Occam's Razor for me - it is the simplest explanation for me. However, if this premise is not true, who is to say that God doesn't place female spirits into male bodies and that I myself, might have been intended by God to be female? Or perhaps AIS is fundamentally different than Transsexualism in that God makes exceptions for those who look completely one sex and not another - such is the case with AIS, and these people were actually always intended to be female, while I, complete with GID, was always intended to be male.

It just... breaks.... everything. I mean, I'm not losing my testimony over it, but a powerful pillar of strength has been toppled, and I need to find a way to prop it back up. I guess I am looking for a one size fits all answer because somewhere inside, I feel there SHOULD be one - I mean God IS a God of order - there has to be some sense made of this all. We can't all be wandering around wondering what spiritual sex we are, or worse determining it for ourselves, because too much Gospel-stuff hinges on it. If it is as truly arbitrary as some would lead me to believe, then why the heck does it matter so much to the church what sex you are? Of course, if I continue down this rabbit hole it will open up a whole lot of dissatisfactions I have with sex-role differences in the church, and that is certainly not where I want this discussion to go.

I truly look forward to your insights. I feel I have no one else I can ask these questions to. I dare not speak to non-member TS's about them, they will only try to poke holes in the whole argument and try to get me to leave my faith. As such, I'm desperately desiring to hear from you all.

Thank you!

* I might have some details misunderstood regarding AIS, but the more important facts, those related to their chromosomes, is correct.

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i can not say much as this is a subject that confuses me as much as you...... I do know God loves us all and eventually (which is such a big word) things will be made clear..... My prayers and support go out to you. Times like this make my problems and trials seem so very small.... I to wish there were answers for you.

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I think in the resurrection all genetic issues will be resolved, but we just don't know enough about the science to determine what that resolution should be. I think our spirits reflect the correct genetic code we are meant to have, but Earthly imperfection means we may have physical genetic differences from that perfection. Bruce R. McConkie believed genetic inheritance was a scientific interpretation of God choosing which spirit goes to which Earthly parents. But I think errors can occur in our imperfect world. I think it can be difficult to rectify gender ambiguity with doctrines like celestial marriage. Say you identify as male, but you are resurrected as a female. What if you were sealed to a female? What then? There are simply no easy answers, and maybe certain blessings simply must occur at the resurrection when the veil is thin and we know the answers. I tend to believe our gender identity is our spirit telling us who we really are, but that is just my opinion. And gender identity is not always the same as gender attraction. Sp that's just another wrinkle to put in the quandry. And I really don't have any concrete answer, and I don't think the church or science does either.

Edited by bytebear
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Thank you both for the quick replies. I hope to hear from others.

I believe as you do that much must wait for the resurrection and the Millennium, however this has profound implications for me in the here and now. It is a trial to live life as I do already, but without some nice, non-shifting, ground to stand on, it makes it a lot harder to be a champion for my faith and intent to live as a male.

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I am concerned for you interalia. I am impressed with you faith in this matter. I wish I could offer you some kind of support but I am unsure what would be the right thing to do or say – I know of nothing regarding such things in scripture or modern revelation. As a suggestion I can only offer the possibility that you talk to your bishop about an apostolic blessing.

The Traveler

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Say you identify as male, but you are resurrected as a female. What if you were sealed to a female? What then? There are simply no easy answers, and maybe certain blessings simply must occur at the resurrection when the veil is thin and we know the answers. I think the same applies to same gender attraction.

I don't know byte, I think Inter has a huge challenge, but if he identifies as male and he has the parts (though confused and unhappy parts that are not doing what they are supposed to), then he is male.

Interalia, I think you have an unbelievable challenge. I heard about AIS a few years ago in South Korea, when a person who thought he was female, found out differently through a mandatory pre-middle school physical. This poor kids had to face all his peers in a boys-only middle-school when up to that point he had always been a girl. He even looked like a girl. The story made the national headlines and stayed there for weeks. I was very ashamed for the kid.

I have no advice except to say: keep at it. You do what you need to. The L-rd will know how to sort whatever byte thought would be confusing. You do what you have to and more power to ya.

You have my support.

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I am concerned for you interalia. I am impressed with you faith in this matter. I wish I could offer you some kind of support but I am unsure what would be the right thing to do or say – I know of nothing regarding such things in scripture or modern revelation. As a suggestion I can only offer the possibility that you talk to your bishop about an apostolic blessing.

The Traveler

I've never heard of that, though it certainly seems interesting. What does it involve?

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I don't know byte, I think Inter has a huge challenge, but if he identifies as male and he has the parts (though confused and unhappy parts that are not doing what they are supposed to), then he is male.

Interalia, I think you have an unbelievable challenge. I heard about AIS a few years ago in South Korea, when a person who thought he was female, found out differently through a mandatory pre-middle school physical. This poor kids had to face all his peers in a boys-only middle-school when up to that point he had always been a girl. He even looked like a girl. The story made the national headlines and stayed there for weeks. I was very ashamed for the kid.

I have no advice except to say: keep at it. You do what you need to. The L-rd will know how to sort whatever byte thought would be confusing. You do what you have to and more power to ya.

You have my support.

I agree with you. I don't know if I was just unclear, or if I was comparing too much to genetic disorders where people are born with XXY or other variations besides XY. This sounds different, so maybe it's less genetic than hormonal. The point is, I think what you identify as is what you should live your life as, and the challenge becomes trying to get everyone else to do the same. And I don't know that every Bishop is up to such a challenge. And I think some blessings, like a temple sealing, or a priesthood ordination may be denied. Just don't let those hiccups in our flawed world get you down. The resurrection will clear those up, and I believe when we get there, we will look back and realize how trivial our concerns were.

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Interalia first off my heart breaks for you tonight. I wish I had the perfect answer to what's confusing you. But , alas like so many in the Church as well as the world, I am ignorant of all the perplexities of ais and GID. So I am afraid that my answer will seem ignorant at best... Now I am speaking from personal expierence that things happen to us in this earthly life that boggle the mind. And, like prospectmom said my only comfort (Which sometimes doesn't offer much comfort:() is that someday my Heavenly Parents will explain to me why this was the way it was and why I was given this or that trial. Trust me my friend and fellow Saint I know when you are in the "darkness" this seems like a worn out cliche. (And let me clarify what I mean by the "darkness" is what I call the sense of being alone and feeling like no one knows where I am coming from and the depression and darts of the enemy come all about...) I honestly believe this trial you have been given in no way makes you any less than any of us. I remember reading in a post where you said that Heavenly Father has given you a message to those like you. I feel in my own Spirit that this is true. PLEASE HANG IN THERE AND DON'T GIVE UP!! I will make you a promise I will read some this week online and try and learn some more about ais and GID so , I can be of more help to you. You are not alone Interalia.:bighug:

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I've never heard of that, though it certainly seems interesting. What does it involve?

It involves a great deal of faith and willingness to ask. I do not know if you will be honored - but I am most sure that you will not receive that which you do not seek. Talk to your bishop and if he is not sure ask to see the stake president and if he is not sure ask that you be allowed to take the matter to the presiding brethren. The process is the same for anything for which there is no resolution.

The Traveler

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Thank you for your encouraging words, spiritseeker. I do have a strong testimony and believe strongly that God has a part for me to play in helping those like me in finding the Gospel that has brought such joy to my life. However, I must undertake this mission prepared. If I have lingering doubts or confusions, they must be resolved as best as they can be so that I do not leave the adversary any foothold wherein he can bring me down - because most assuredly, he will attack me most where I am weakest.

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I so wish that I had the answers you seek!! My heart both breaks and rejoyces for you. Breaks because you long for answers .....rejoyce because you have such a testimony.

As stated I don't have the answers, but what I can share with you is this......................

Sometimes as difficult as it is we may never know in this life. And the not knowing is very much apart of the trial that we are asked to endure. Don't let the "not knowing" brake you because that is exaclty what Satan wants to happen.

You are in my thoughts and prayers friend!

(((((hug))))))

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I hope that I can help.

I don't want to give you the feeling that I am cold and uncaring but I thought that this was the most interesting genetic syndrome while studying medicine.

I learned the syndrome as Feminine Testicularization. And the most famous assumed patient of this syndrome is Jamie Lee Curtis.

Do you still have your testicles? Most of the people that have the syndrome have them removed because of the possibility of testicular cancer. There is no negative feedback loop and the testicles continue to pump out testosterone which is then converted to Estrogen.

You are not female. You have the outward appearance of a female (phenotype), but you are genotypically male. You do not have a uterus. You have an empty vault and do not have ovaries. Thus you cannot produce an ovum. You cannot carry a fetus.

I would love to hear your story in detail. Your life is a perfect example of a case that would totally discredit Gender Identity Disorder. Because you ARE NOT female although you are probably prettier than most other girls you know.

I hope for the best for you. God gives everyone a trial and you got a doozie.

Did you get a patriarichal blessing? And if you did, did the patriarch give you a feminine blessing? If he did, I would ask for a new blessing ASAP!

My heart goes out to you. I would be more than willing to help you in anyway I can.

Sincerely,

Mike Mikulecky M.D.

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I was about to head to bed, but I need to correct some confusion. I myself have GID. I used to live life as a female, but have since, based on a revelation from God returned to living as a male.

I basically came up with a theory for myself that helped me convince myself that I am and was always intended to be male - this is so I could remind myself of it when my GID feelings come a knockin'. That theory held that I was male based on my chromosomes. This theory however is being severely tested due to the existence of AIS and its implications on the spirit-sex of these individuals and their roles.

I'm sorry to disappoint, Mikbone, if you were expecting me to have AIS, but I do appreciate your perspective and knowledge on the subject.

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I agree with Mikbone, God gives us trials that with His help we can overcome. He obviously has more faith in you than in me :P

I agree with you too, you are totally a guy. Too many weird things go wrong in this mortal world, and considering how DNA works it's really amazing we aren't all puddle-people. Our spirit is pretty much our one constant.

If this was the 1970s you could have swam for the East Germans Olympic women's swim team and won a medal. That would have been very cool :D

Be strong, my brother in Christ! You are loved by your Father in heaven, even if His ways sometimes are completely unfathomable.

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I'll live.

I still hope the best for you.

AIS is probably the best example of a physical disorder that causes gender confusion.

But there are other disorders Ambiguous Genitalia

Curiously I made another post today concerning sex assignment by God. I am unsure about when gender is determined but am leaning to the idea that when we made the transition from "intelligence" to spirits that we were gendered at that time.

Joseph Smith, Sermon delivered at Nauvoo, Ill. on Sunday, March 28, 1841

Source: McIntire Minute Book

Spirit of Man Eternal - Meaning of Abr. 3:22

he says the spirit or the intelligence of men are self Existent principles he before the foundation this Earth--& quotes the Lords question to Job "where wast thou when I laid the foundation of the Earth" Evidence that Job was in Existing somewhere at that time he says God is Good & all his acts is for the benifit of infereir intelligences-- God saw that those inteligences had Not power to Defend themselves against those that had a tabernicle therefore the Lord Calls them togather in Counsel & agrees to form them tabernicles so that he might Gender the Spirit & the tabernicle togather so as to create sympathy for their fellowman--

Bottom line is I don't know. I dislike the idea that God can make a mistake like putting a female spirit into a male body. But Feminine Testicularization makes a great argument of God putting a male spirit into a female body...

Edited by mikbone
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I was about to head to bed, but I need to correct some confusion. I myself have GID. I used to live life as a female, but have since, based on a revelation from God returned to living as a male.

I basically came up with a theory for myself that helped me convince myself that I am and was always intended to be male - this is so I could remind myself of it when my GID feelings come a knockin'. That theory held that I was male based on my chromosomes. This theory however is being severely tested due to the existence of AIS and its implications on the spirit-sex of these individuals and their roles.

I'm sorry to disappoint, Mikbone, if you were expecting me to have AIS, but I do appreciate your perspective and knowledge on the subject.

I was wondering if you were going to clarify that. From your first post it seemed you were implying that you had AIS, but you never said it straight out. I even wondered if you had kind of done that on purpose :) (made it seem like you have AIS)

Anyway, here's what I think about it - AIS is not common. Not at all. It's like 1 in 60,000. You seem very concerned about it in your original post, but I feel that we don't need to be quite so concerned about it.

You said something like, God wouldn't want us all being confused about our sexual identities like this- well, you're right- He doesn't- and we don't need to think that something that happens only once in 60,000 cases is cause enough for us all to wonder about our sexual identities. Not at all.

Does this make sense? I hope so. We don't need to let very unusual cases like that affect what we think about our own sexual identities in general. I hope this helps.

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...

I dislike the idea that God can make a mistake like putting a female spirit into a male body. But Feminine Testicularization makes a great argument of God putting a male spirit into a female body...

I know that God does not make mistakes. Never can He. I hope everyone will put their mind at ease in this matter. Everything that is done, is done with a purpose. ^_^

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I know that God does not make mistakes. Never can He. I hope everyone will put their mind at ease in this matter. Everything that is done, is done with a purpose. ^_^

Wonder if this could be thought of as neither purposeful nor a mistake on the part of God. Perhaps genetic abnormalities, being part of the nonspiritual world, are events that happen independent of God's hand. Sort of like the weather.

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I have a friend who is going through something similar but different. They were born as a boy and raised as a boy, however in adulthood they went to the doctor for some problem they were having and upon being x-rayed were found to have a uterus and ovaries. Up to this point they had been engaged twice and had broken the engagement off twice because things didn't feel right. When they discovered that they do have female parts they began to take estrogen and began to have a period. They are currently working on getting a sex change done. Problem, they are an active member of the church, they are looking at getting married soon and hope to get married in the temple. How does this all work for them? Currently the church is having them tested to see what their chromosomes turn out to be. If they are XYX or XXY then what? From what I understand the church will allow the sex change and allow them to stay a member in good standing. It is a very difficult thing for them and they have come up against quite a lot of judgment from the leaders in their ward.

But considering your original post, what gender of spirit was put into their body? Male or female? They were born with both sets and both sets work so which one are they? It is definitely a very confusing thing and something I don't really know if anyone has answers to. Though we would really like to know the answers to how this works out in the eternities I don't think we will know until the afterlife.

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. . .

Bottom line is I don't know. I dislike the idea that God can make a mistake like putting a female spirit into a male body. But Feminine Testicularization makes a great argument of God putting a male spirit into a female body...

Well, considering when you think the spirit enters the flesh this can be a problem.

Situations such as this and some others makes me tend to think that the spirit enters the flesh at conception.

AND

Stuff:D happens:o

God is not at fault.

Imperfections of the flesh can make things go many ways and even though I am convinced that the flesh will do it's best to conform to the form of our spirit. . .

Someday soon we may be able to more fully understand why sometimes our gender fails to conform but. . .

God Bless you and you are in my prayers interalia:)

Bro. Rudick

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I'm grateful to you all for the love you have shown and your prayers. For the vast majority of people, these things I have spoken about never even enter into their minds. I was fortunate enough to have the Spirit of the Lord dictate to me "what" I should do - and that life I am leading today.

But I still struggle with "who" I am, as well as the "why" for my condition and others like me. I want it to make sense so I can make sense of it to others. It is so hard to be an advocate for the Gospel to my brethren and sisters who struggle as I have, when I can offer no promises of understanding, no guarantees that they won't be crushed taking my path. I can only go by the Spirit and speak as I am dictated to speak.

I have so many many detractors though. I am overjoyed when I find a person willing to listen to my story, to seek an answer other than that which the world floods them with. I constantly try to promote a message of selflessness despite a condition which seems it will overwhelm you if you don't think only of yourself. But my detractors have strong arguments, and they are based in accepted evidence, numbers, and common wisdom, while I only offer faith and the 'hope' of a better life. It is no wonder so many who hurt have such a hard time hearing a message that seems on its surface will only bring them more pain.

Many feel as if they have been hurt by members of the church which makes me a difficult person to listen to. I can understand this. The lack of revelation leaves many confused as to how to deal with their peer, friend, relative, son, daughter, father, or mother who struggles with their gender which usually results in at worse, ignorant statements, or at best, spiritual triteness.

I desperately desire to bridge this gap - this ever widening gap. The world would convince these brothers and sisters of mine that the Lord's plan is unattainable, that it is steeped in tradition - a tradition that never considered them. I wish to bring hope, to tell them that they can know their Savior, they can feel love, direct love, from a Heavenly Father. Even if things don't make sense, they can rely on the arm of the Lord, and feel safety even while it appears their ship will sink in the raging storm. These are all the things I have experienced.

I keep looking for answers to questions, something to stand strong against the tide of worldly knowledge, something profound that breaks the adversary's stormy winds, but none of my arguments hold much weight, and in the end, I am left with only one thing in my arsenal - my personal experience and testimony, which is, at best it seems, anecdotal compared to the shared experiences of so so many which do not relate to it.

Why should my experience be so different from others? Why should the Lord favor me with such specific direction, while others wander on their own? Am I particularly blessed, or just particularly deluded? I don't know, and perhaps that is the trial of my faith.

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. . . Am I particularly blessed, or just particularly deluded? I don't know, and perhaps that is the trial of my faith.

Interalia:

I don't know if your condition is now a blessing, but maybe one day it will be (I don't know, I'm an idiot, but I hope one day it can be). RE: Delusions: I think you are the last one of us posting today who carries delusions about your condition and the future before you. I think you know extremely well what is before you and the challenges and pain to come.

You have my full support, but absolutely no envy.

Dude, I know you'll succeed where I probably would have failed (I'm already a fat, jaded, red-haired-step-child social-schizoid whose only prospects are women who like losers). You are well informed and you know others sharing the same condition. I hope you succeed and lead those you know to greater happiness.

Go for it man!

Aaron the Ogre

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