The most important thing(s)?

[Moksha]

Even though I realize that not all posters on this forum are followers of Jesus or even believe in any diety, I will base the assumption for the the sake of this post on all of us believing that Jesus is the Christ.

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Off the top of my head, I would say the most important religious principal is to obey Jesus' two greatest commandments.

I have heard many of my fellow Mormons say that the most important thing to have Obedience to Church Authorities.

So I have a couple of questions:

1. How much do you emphasize Obedience to Church Authorities?

2. What are the most important item(s) to you?

.

[Elgama]

1. How much do you emphasize Obedience to Church Authorities?

2. What are the most important item(s) to you?

.

For me obedience to church authorities is part of loving my God and Jesus - it comes out of my faith in them. If my relationship with God took me another way i would follow that first.

Nothing for me is more important than the 2 way relationship with the Saviour

-Charley

[rameumptom]

It all ends in the perfect commandment of Christ-like love. However, since most of us are not there yet, there are other commandments and calls to obedience to lead us to that perfect state.

I would suggest that the initial steps as stated by Nephi and Jesus as the "Doctrine of Christ" are: Faith in Christ, Repentance, Baptism/Ordinances, Gift of the Holy Ghost (2 Ne 31, 3 Ne 11). These develop a progressive pattern that lead us to perfection, line upon line. We go from grace to grace, receiving grace for grace (D&C 93).

[Guest]

I left the Catholic faith because I was practicing it a'la carte. I mean, I believe in Jesus but did not believe in praying the rosary... etc.

I think that one should embrace the gospel in its entirety and not take it a'la carte.

[the Ogre]

1. How much do you emphasize Obedience to Church Authorities?

I think obedience to the church is very important. I think it is something we all struggle with. I no not think the First Presidency trumps the two greatest commandment, because the church follows them to the max.

Matthew 20.34-40

34 But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.

35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, atempting him, and saying,

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

I: The Leaders do the "thinking".

"When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan--it is God's Plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give directions, it should mark the end of controversy, God works in no other way. To think otherwise, without immediate repentance, may cost one his faith, may destroy his testimony, and leave him a stranger to the kingdom of God (Ward Teachers Message, Deseret News, Church Section p. 5, May 26, 1945)."

The problem with this quote is that it was not written by a member of the First Presidency. It was written by a very well meaning member of the church called to assemble a new manual. I like it however. I think it is nice to know the First Presidency has thought carefully about the positions for the church and the direction it must go (see section III below for a modification to this statement by George Albert Smith).

II: President Benson's fourteen points (paraphrased):

1) Only the President speaks for the Lord in everything.

2) The living prophet trumps the standard works.

3) The living prophet trumps a dead prophet.

4) The President never leads the Church astray.

5) The prophet may speak or act on any subject or matter regardless of training and credential.

6) The prophet can skip "Thus saith the Lord" to give scripture.

7) The prophet tells us what we need, not what we want.

8) The prophet can ignore the political/philosophical morals of the day.

9) The prophet can function as a prophet on any topic, religious or otherwise.

10) “The prophet may be involved in civic matters.”

11) The proud, rich and/or educated in particular, obey the prophet with the most difficulty.

12) The prophet can spurn worldly popularity.

13) The First Presidency is the highest quorum in the Church.

14) Follow the first presidency and be blessed; ignore them at your own risk.

I have always loved this set of guidelines. It is evident many other members of the forum are familiar with it. I think it is a handy guide to know what the prophet and his councelors are free to do. I think many people would love to put the prophet in a box (particularly apologeticists, skeptics, and other scholars).

III: We are free to "Think", too.

" . . . Even to imply that members of the Church are not to do their own thinking is grossly to misrepresent the true ideal of the Church, which is that every individual must obtain for himself a testimony of the truth of the Gospel, must, through the redemption of Jesus Christ, work out his own salvation, and is personally responsible to His Maker for his individual acts. The Lord Himself does not attempt coercion in His desire and effort to give peace and salvation to His children. He gives the principles of life and true progress, but leaves every person free to choose or to reject His teachings. This plan the Authorities of the Church try to follow.

"The Prophet Joseph Smith once said: "I want liberty of thinking and believing as I please." This liberty he and his successors in the leadership of the Church have granted to every other member thereof.

"On one occasion in answer to the question by a prominent visitor how he governed his people, the Prophet answered: "I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves." (President George ALbert Smith, Letter to Dr. J. Raymond Cope, Dec. 7, 1945)"

I love this section. I am free to think about what ever the church has to offer. It is very important to me. Not thinking would be impossible. Please note, I do not think this statement is in opposition to the two sections above it. Many members have used it as such (particularly with section I). I appreciate learning principals and governing myself, but I also know the church is going to be right and I need to make sure I am there with them even if I have thought out every pronouncement knowing the implications for each.

2. What are the most important item(s) to you?

As for your OP, they are Matt 20.37&39 and Joseph Smith's "I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves". The two of these are great governing principals that govern my life.

I am a free-thinking, stubborn, and willful person who has little time for apologetics and skeptics. I am not going to allow them to think for me. If I'm not the one thinking, I will always leave the work to the First Presidency. It is then up to me to conform myself.

Sorry about the very long post.

Edited May 25, 2009 by the Ogre

[Moksha]

Has this inquiry been overlooked by the non-mormons on this board?

[Seanette]

1. How much do you emphasize Obedience to Church Authorities?

Since the Authorities are the Lord's representatives, I'm not sure I can honestly claim to be following God if I'm ignoring or rebelling against the leaders of His church.

[TruthSeekerToo]

II: President Benson's fourteen points (paraphrased):

1) Only the President speaks for the Lord in everything.

2) The living prophet trumps the standard works.

3) The living prophet trumps a dead prophet.

4) The President never leads the Church astray.

5) The prophet may speak or act on any subject or matter regardless of training and credential.

6) The prophet can skip "Thus saith the Lord" to give scripture.

7) The prophet tells us what we need, not what we want.

8) The prophet can ignore the political/philosophical morals of the day.

9) The prophet can function as a prophet on any topic, religious or otherwise.

10) “The prophet may be involved in civic matters.”

11) The proud, rich and/or educated in particular, obey the prophet with the most difficulty.

12) The prophet can spurn worldly popularity.

13) The First Presidency is the highest quorum in the Church.

14) Follow the first presidency and be blessed; ignore them at your own risk.

I have always loved this set of guidelines. It is evident many other members of the forum are familiar with it. I think it is a handy guide to know what the prophet and his councelors are free to do. I think many people would love to put the prophet in a box (particularly apologeticists, skeptics, and other scholars).

~snip~

2) The living prophet trumps the standard works.

D&C 35:23 And inasmuch as ye do not write, behold, it shall be given unto him to prophesy; and thou shalt preach my gospel and call on the holy prophets to prove his words, as they shall be given him. [holy prophets=scriptures]

“It makes no difference what is written or what anyone has said, if what has been said is in conflict with what the Lord has revealed, we can set it aside. My words, and the teachings of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear. We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man’s doctrine” ( Doctrines of Salvation, 3:203). Joseph Fielding Smith

4) The President never leads the Church astray.

D&C 107:32 And in case that any decision of these quorums [First Prez, Twelve, Seventy] is made in unrighteousness, it may be brought before a general assembly of the several quorums, which constitute the spiritual authorities of the church; otherwise there can be no appeal from their decision.

13) The First Presidency is the highest quorum in the Church.

D&C 107:23 The twelve traveling councilors are called to be the Twelve Apostles, or special witnesses of the name of Christ in all the world—thus differing from other officers in the church in the duties of their calling. 24 And they form a quorum, equal in authority and power to the three presidents previously mentioned.

[brackets and bold by me]

[hordak]

I always though the church authorities spoke for the church as a whole and not for it's members as individuals so I put more emphasis and personal revelation then obedience.

When i was in the service the base CO knew what was best for the base as a whole (how to allocate funds to the squadrons) but as someone who worked the planes everyday I was more in tune with how those funds should be spent (what tools, were most used, needed to be replaced etc.)

This is how I see church authority. The Prophet may know that the church members, need to keep the sabbath day holy , attend service, and address it at a GC, but he doesn't know that you, as an individual, have to work on sundays in order to keep a roof over your head. (as an example)

And i would say regardless of religiosity belief the second commandment is something we should all follow

[foreverafter]

The scriptures tell us that those who don't make it to the Celestial Kingdom are good & honorable people & members who were deceived because they didn't have the Holy Spirit as their guide. We know that all leaders can be wrong at times, so we must have the Holy Spirit to know if what they counsel & teach is true or not. Though we are safe to follow "The Prophet" even if he is wrong & we will still be blessed, if any other leader is in error & we follow them we will have to suffer the consequences.

I believe the two most important things are:

1. Having the "Holy Spirit" for our guide so we aren't deceived by all the philosophies of men that most everyone is falling for.

2. Possessing the same "True Love" that Christ had for us, especially for our spouse, for it we don't have it for our spouse we can't have it for anyone else.

With these two things "it will be well with us at the last day".

Edited June 19, 2009 by foreverafter

[AnthonyB]

Has this inquiry been overlooked by the non-mormons on this board?

Importants things....

Have faith in Jesus redemptive work for me.

Don't blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

Love the Lord your God.

Love your neighbour.

Have neither faith plus works nor a faith without works but have a faith that works.

Church authorities is primarily Jesus (my eternal high priest) and his teachings as expressed in the NT by him and his original apostles. I'll show respect to elders and teachers and even people I would count as apostles but not at the expense of my own conscience. If I disagree, I will respectfully stand my ground and take the consequences of my disobedience.

Hopefully without being too offensive, isn't the concept that following the "prophet" absolves from one from personal moral responsbility to follow God's revealed law problematic. Isn't that how fringe "Mormon" groups justify all sorts of excesses?

[Maxel]

Hopefully without being too offensive, isn't the concept that following the "prophet" absolves from one from personal moral responsbility to follow God's revealed law problematic.

This isn't the case at all. The prophets of modern day are as the prophets of the Old Testament; the apostles of the modern day are as the apostles of the New Testament. If they are truly prophets of the Lord- which Mormons believe (and I know) they are- then their advice, when understood via the Holy Ghost, will never contradict previously revealed scripture (if what is revered as scripture is really inspired and from a previous prophet).

Not coincidentally, one of the most often repeated messages from the Mormon prophets are to study the scriptures (that includes the Bible). Therefore, a belief in modern prophets does not absolve one from the moral duty of studying previously revealed scripture- in fact, the belief in modern prophets reinforces the need to study scripture by offering another powerful, living witness that God loves us and sees fit to impart His wisdom to us via the prophets who wrote past scripture.

Isn't that how fringe "Mormon" groups justify all sorts of excesses?

Yep. Subverting the correct hierarchy of truth is the most effective way to justify sin.

[ErikJohnson]

...the correct hierarchy of truth...

Hey Maxel--

Help me out here. Is "correct hierarchy of truth" intended as a euphemism for LDS Church?

--Erik

PS. Has anyone else thought it ironic? LDS seek to deny their schismatic brethren (e.g., the FLDS) the title "Mormon" while at the same time taking deep offense whenever anyone suggests they aren't "Christian." Pot, meet kettle...

[Islander]

Hey Maxel--

Help me out here. Is "correct hierarchy of truth" intended as a euphemism for LDS Church?

--Erik

PS. Has anyone else thought it ironic? LDS seek to deny their schismatic brethren (e.g., the FLDS) the title "Mormon" while at the same time taking deep offense whenever anyone suggests they aren't "Christian." Pot, meet kettle...

What are you talking about?

[rameumptom]

Hey Maxel--

Help me out here. Is "correct hierarchy of truth" intended as a euphemism for LDS Church?

--Erik

PS. Has anyone else thought it ironic? LDS seek to deny their schismatic brethren (e.g., the FLDS) the title "Mormon" while at the same time taking deep offense whenever anyone suggests they aren't "Christian." Pot, meet kettle...

"Correct hierarchy of truth" means following the proper prophetic succession. The FLDS and most other break aways were created by people who never have had apostolic authority in the LDS Church. So their claim to authority is very weak, without first insisting that the main Church fell back into apostasy. But then, there is no direct evidence that the authority was passed to them.

The LDS Church officially seeks to protect the term "Mormon" from groups that are viewed as outlaws. The LDS Church has not tried to keep the Community of Christ (formerly RLDS) from using the term. Nor has it prevented other restorationist churches from using it. It hurts the Church's effort to proselyte, if people think we are giving refuge to outlaws and child molesters. Clearly it is in the Church's interest to protect the term.

As for the Christian term, it has plenty who wish to prevent the Mormons from being considered Christian of any sort. Then again, there are many traditional Christians who see us as good Christians, just not "traditional Christians."

[Just_A_Guy]

Help me out here. Is "correct hierarchy of truth" intended as a euphemism for LDS Church?

Why would "LDS Church" need a euphemism? It isn't a cuss word or an obscenity.

PS. Has anyone else thought it ironic? LDS seek to deny their schismatic brethren (e.g., the FLDS) the title "Mormon" while at the same time taking deep offense whenever anyone suggests they aren't "Christian." Pot, meet kettle...

Yes. Next question?

[Misshalfway]

I think one of the most important things in the church is application of the scriptures and words of prophets old and new. I think that it is only from the application of forgiveness that one feels the burden lift. It is only in the practicing of kindness that one can learn to strengthen that ability.

I think this is what is meant by faith without works is dead. We must be doers of the word, not just hearers only. :)

[Maxel]

Hey Maxel--

Help me out here. Is "correct hierarchy of truth" intended as a euphemism for LDS Church?

Nope. It's intended to convey the fact that some truths (we exist, God exists, God is more powerful than us, etc.) are more important than others (on June 22, 2009 Maxel sat down to browse LDS.net).

In the correct hierarchy of truth, for example, God's justice is more 'powerful' than (above) His mercy, for mercy cannot rob justice. Also in the hierarchy of truth, our faith in Christ is more important than (is above) our our works on earth.

I assumed most of the 'fringe' groups AnthonyB mentioned took one doctrine of the Church- polygamy, for example- and put that doctrine above following the prophet- sometimes these groups claim they are following 'special orders' from a prophet and seek to justify their actions outside of the accepted method given in the canon and practice of the LDS Church. The fringe groups I'm thinking of are the FLDS, RLDS, and other smaller groups that I can't remember the name of off the top of my head.

[lilered]

We have been told in the scriptures:

“Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. “This is the first and great commandment. “And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. “On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Thus

if we show our love by obediance to Gods commandments then it follows we must love and obey his diciples (leaders of the church) when they testify of God. his word, and give us direction. They speak for God, thus if we are to gain the highest degrees of glory, we must be obediant to God and his diciples.

Edited June 22, 2009 by lilered

[foreverafter]

if we are to gain the highest degrees of glory, we must be obediant to God and his diciples.

As long as what they teach or counsel is correct & we will know if they are correct or not by the Holy Spirit & by comparing what they say with the Prophets words & the scriptures. But we must always follow the Prophet, he is the only leader that can't lead us astray.

Edited June 22, 2009 by foreverafter

[ErikJohnson]

"Correct hierarchy of truth" means following the proper prophetic succession.

Interesting, somewhat analogous to the Roman Catholic notion of Sacred Tradition or Apostolic Succession it sounds. Never heard that particular phrase, which is why I asked.

But it seems Maxel meant something altogether different by those words. And if he coined the phrase, then I suppose it's up to him to define it any way he pleases. (Although I think your attempt at a definition made more sense in light of the original context.)

I would question his idea that truths can be stack-ranked or made hierarchical. Jesus is the Truth, the full revelation of God. But after that, it seems like it might turn into an exercise of which truth was truthier (or truthiest). A good topic for another thread, no doubt.

Thanks rameumptom,

--Erik

[AnthonyB]

Maxel,

I do actually believe in modern prophecy and modern day prophets. I have a prophetic word spoken to me nearly 20 years ago, which I hold dearly and count as a specific word of God to me.

I do realised that LDS do not take every utterance by a prophet as words from the Lord, you do have a vetting process through which it has to pass before being accepted by the church. A prophet cannot just be having a bad hair day, make an on off the cuff remark and change peoples actions or beliefs.

However the impression I had from the posters in this thread was that a prophetic word absolves them of moral responsibility before God. That even if they had a testimony or conviction that a prophecy wasn’t from God, God expects them to follow the prophet’s words against their own witness and God will absolve them of any wrong if they do.

Prophets do make mistakes (Num 20:7-12) and I’m sure Moses would have thanked the courageous man if he had stepped up and said, "God told you to speak, don’t use your staff." I’m not LDS but I have the distinct impression from other threads that the LDS church today follows closer to the opinions of Orson Pratt then Brigham Young on some particular issues. And to be a little "Burkean", surely you owe a true prophet of God loyalty and respect but not your conscience on an issue. I’m sure I’ve read about several LDS apostle when confronted with polygamy struggled before God about it. They didn’t seem to just say the prophet has spoken, off I go and obey the prophet without gaining a personal testimony that it was true.

[rameumptom]

Erik,

Revelations can be racked and stacked. The Church's official newsroom provided an official policy on what doctrine is, versus teachings.

http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/commentary/approaching-mormon-doctrine

Among the things it states are:

• Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted.
• Some doctrines are more important than others and might be considered core doctrines. For example, the precise location of the Garden of Eden is far less important than doctrine about Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice. The mistake that public commentators often make is taking an obscure teaching that is peripheral to the Church’s purpose and placing it at the very center. This is especially common among reporters or researchers who rely on how other Christians interpret Latter-day Saint doctrine.

The doctrine that Jesus is the Christ is much more important than the Word of Wisdom. And some teachings of earlier Church leaders have been superseded/trumped by modern revelation (polygamy, priesthood ban, Adam-God theory, etc).

[rameumptom]

Erik,

Revelations can be racked and stacked. The Church's official newsroom provided an official policy on what doctrine is, versus teachings.

http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/commentary/approaching-mormon-doctrine

Among the things it states are:

• Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted.
• Some doctrines are more important than others and might be considered core doctrines. For example, the precise location of the Garden of Eden is far less important than doctrine about Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice. The mistake that public commentators often make is taking an obscure teaching that is peripheral to the Church’s purpose and placing it at the very center. This is especially common among reporters or researchers who rely on how other Christians interpret Latter-day Saint doctrine.

The doctrine that Jesus is the Christ is much more important than the Word of Wisdom. And some teachings of earlier Church leaders have been superseded/trumped by modern revelation (polygamy, priesthood ban, Adam-God theory, etc).

[rameumptom]

Maxel,

However the impression I had from the posters in this thread was that a prophetic word absolves them of moral responsibility before God. That even if they had a testimony or conviction that a prophecy wasn’t from God, God expects them to follow the prophet’s words against their own witness and God will absolve them of any wrong if they do.

While some members do as you suggest, the Lord's prophets have continually told us to gain our own testimonies of what they teach, through the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

There are teachings (not core doctrine) in the Church, or statements of previous and current leaders, which I do not have a testimony of. Why? Because the Spirit has so far led me in a different direction on some things.

When I joined at 16 years of age in 1975 (yes, I turn 50 in September), GA writings had me convinced that Christ's atonement was basically a free resurrection, and we had to earn everything else. Don't believe it? Read Miracle of Forgiveness or Mormon Doctrine.

Since then, I've read the Book of Mormon over 75 times, and the other scriptures very frequently. I am now convinced that in the pre-1980s Church, they were having a knee-jerk reaction towards the way grace was being taught in other churches, and over-emphasized works, to the point of almost pushing grace away.

There seemed to be more focus on the Restoration through Joseph Smith than on Jesus Christ and his atonement.

Since then, we've seen the Church change its direction back to the center of the discussion, where it should be. The Church's Logo was changed, to emphasize Jesus as the center of the Church. The Book of Mormon's title was expanded to "The Book of Mormon, Another Testament of Jesus Christ."

Grace and faith were taught again. Works are now explained as a needed extension of faith, so that we Become as Christ is through obedience. Where the Telestial and Terrestrial kingdoms were viewed as "Hell-Lite", we now see them as described in the scriptures: as levels of true heaven.

So, we don't need to believe all that the prophets teach us. We need to gain our own testimonies of the core doctrines, and then seek out other truths to enhance those core teachings. But we must keep an open mind to the fact that what we know now (outside of core doctrines) can change. And will change. That's why we have continuing revelation. And it develops over time for us, just as it did for Joseph Smith. For Joseph Smith, the concept of salvation changed over time, as he first learned of the 3 degrees of glory (1832), of the Spirit World where his brother Alvin was saved without yet being baptized (Jan 1836), and then the saving works in the temple being revealed later (1840).

If it was so for Joseph, why should it be different for us?

Study, seek, learn, ponder, and enjoy the ride.