Is Baptism Necessary?

[the Ogre]

Relax, there is no room here for debate on these terms. I stand by my belief and I respect yours.

Then why are you commenting on LDS beliefs regarding salvation?

(...and that is not to mean that I am giving you permission to have a belief or any other unintended foggy innuendo on my part.)

I don't need your permission, your response is verification.

[Justice]

aj4u? are you still there?

I'd like to know what scriptures in the Bible say that baptism isn't required. Or, I'd like to know what verses specifically you have interpreted as meaning that.

[Jim108]

I don't have a point system. Again you are taking that too literally. It was just a phrasology or use of words..nothing more. What I was saying is: I'm hoping the good works that I do while on this earth will help me gain the reward that I want.

You are just twisting my words.

I understand your view however let me add this. I believe that the works done by my hands are not my works, but rather Gods. He works through me. So why would I get rewards for His works. The glory is Gods. Not mine. Anyway the threads subject is about baptism, so I am going to go to bed now and I am sorry that we got off track. Thanks for the debate, Jim

[pam]

Yes I'm terribly sorry Justice. We have hijacked your thread. Back to Justice' intent on this thread.

[Justice]

No, it's OK Pam. In fact, I think I'm going to ask Jim a related question while we wait.

I believe that the works done by my hands are not my works, but rather Gods. He works through me.

Can you exaplin this? Are you saying God takes over our bodies and controls us to do His works?

What about agency?

He forces us to do His work? We have no choice?

Why doesn't He just force everyone to do His works?

Why do men sin if they have no choice but to do God's works?

If God can do these works through men's hands, with no responsibility to men, would He not make all men do His works? Why do some do them and some not?

Some say we have a sin nature and have no choice but to obey Satan, until God does these works in us. Why don't all do God's works if He works in man to not do Satan's works?

That's the same question worded different ways.

[the Ogre]

I understand your view however let me add this. I believe that the works done by my hands are not my works, but rather Gods. He works through me. So why would I get rewards for His works. The glory is Gods. Not mine. Anyway the threads subject is about baptism, so I am going to go to bed now and I am sorry that we got off track. Thanks for the debate, Jim

Well, Jim when you wake up tomorrow and take a look-see, you have just explained perfectly the LDS belief in works. Have a good night.

Justice:

Do you think what AJ says violates the Forth Article of Faith?

Aaron

[pam]

But I do think Justice has a very good point to make with his questions.

[Justice]

I guess, Ogre, I'm trying to articulate exactly what a work is.

Is baptism a work?

If one believes we have no choice, or no say, which leads to the understanding we have no reward, then it's puzzling to me why God can't make everyone do His works. Or, why some do and some don't. Is He only powerful enough to make some do His works, not all?

It would mean God chooses who will be saved... which means He chooses who will be damned. That is the conclusion one draws when agency is removed.

I believe our 4th article of faith implies choice. From what jim has written, I see no choice implied.

[pam]

I think works can be so many different things. When I think of works I think of how we are looked upon by example. Take emergency relief efforts. How many members give of their time tirelessly when emergencies require help? How many times do we go out of our way to help a new family we notice moving into our neighborhood by helping them unload a truck? How many meals do we take into families during times of hardship or sickness?

Christ said: "Let your like so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in Heaven"

Yes the good works we do glorifies our Father in Heaven, but we still have a choice to do them. We aren't forced to do them. We honor our Father in Heaven by what we do as well, which makes me still believe that as we honor we will also gain a reward in heaven.

[a-train]

It is required that a man be baptized to enter the kingdom of God, it is the mode whereby he does so. However, it does not pay for his salvation. Simply walking into the door of a restaurant does not pay for a meal much less the whole restaurant, but it is impossible to eat in the restaurant without entering. Just the same, salvation is of the kingdom of God, yet simply entering that kingdom does not pay for it.

If I bought a friend a train ticket, his acceptance of it would be made manifest in his boarding the train (among many other things). But his doing so would pay not a penny toward the ticket fees. Just the same, we cannot enter God's kingdom through any other way but the door (baptism), yet the kingdom, the door, and our ability to walk through it is all entirely a free gift of God.

-a-train

[ploomf]

I look at it like this. Jesus Christ is my savior. He died on the cross for me, He paid the price for my sins. His resurrection made it possible for me to be resurrected someday. He did every single thing that I could not do for myself and He is the only way I'll be able to return to my Heavenly Father. The works that I do are not my way of earning my way to Heaven, I could never earn my way to Heaven. They are my way of showing my love and gratitude to Christ, my obedience and love is the only thing I have to give Him.

Christ said, “If ye love me, keep my commandments”. I do love Him and I do try to keep his commandments. And I mess up, a lot, some days it almost seems like I mess up more than I get it right. That’s why repentance is such a wonderful gift, because I can keep trying. And if I was to die tomorrow while committing the usual stupid sins that I seem to commit every day, while that might be slightly embarrassing when I get to the other side* it wouldn’t affect my salvation in any way. I’m never going to come close to Christ’s perfection and I could never earn my way to Heaven but that doesn’t mean I’m going to stop keeping His commandments and trying to be better every day. As for baptism, yes I do believe baptism is necessary, the bible has taught again and again that it is, the book of mormon has taught that it is, modern prophets have taught that it is and most importantly for me at least, Christ Himself thought it was so necessary that He was baptized when out of all the people that have ever lived on this earth He needed it the least. Two books that I loved that I though explained the LDS belief on Grace and works quite well are Grace Works by Robert L Millet and Believing Christ the Parable of the Bicycle and other Good News by Stephen E Robinson.

* (I can just imagine me meeting all these wonderful people who were martyred for their beliefs or the original Mormon pioneers who died in Nauvoo or on the trip to Salt Lake and they ask me how I died and I’ll say, yeah I skipped church to watch the Top Chef marathon on Bravo and my roof collapsed in a freak accident. Something like that happening would be my usual luck)

[Dravin]

We just do not expect reward.

If God promises a reward who are we not to expect it? The only reason to not expect a reward when somebody says you'll receive one is because you don't trust them to deliver. You do expect a reward, even if only for having faith and that reward is not going to hell, if you didn't expect a reward, if you didn't believe Christ will deliver as he's said he will, why do you follow him? Why not any other random being you don't expect to deliver you from hell?

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

So why would I get rewards for His works.

Because he said so (though the Timothy quote is talking about the flip side of reward for good works, the reward for evil works).

Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward.

And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.

Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.

Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:

Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Edited May 28, 2009 by Dravin
Changed the listed scriptures to quotes and removed a couple duplicates.

[Moksha]

Okay if that's the case..then I can just continue to live my life caring only about myself and never having to do anything to assist my fellow man. Never having to show compassion never having to help a neighbor in need.

Seems like this compassion and caring is the very essence of Christianity.

Love one another as well as love ourselves and therefore what caring and compassion we have given to the least is the caring and compassion we have given to Jesus.

.

[Justice]

I guess aj4u is taking a break. I never was able to get to where I wanted to go with this discussion.

The main reason most people believe baptism isn't necessary is because they have no answer for what happens to someone who died without baptism, having never even heard the name Jesus in their lifetime.

I wanted to show how lacking the Bible is in this one area. They are right, it speaks cryptically about what happens to these people, or how they can be saved. But, our lack of understanding shouldn't change Jesus' word.

I was going to bring in Book of Mormon theology and show Him how God allowed for such people who had not been baptized. It's an easy way to show the need for the Book of Mormon and modern revelation.

[AnthonyB]

Baptism isn't a work!

Firstly it is passive, "be baptized" is a passive verb, it is something that is done to us not something we do. In two senses, someone else dunk us. Secondly all the things attached to baptism are things God does for us not things we do for ourselves. It is god who remits our sin etc.

All we supply is faith and a willingness to obey Jesus command. If supplying faith is a work then every single person who has believed in Christ has earnt their salvation.

Baptism is an integral part of the expression of faith in the NT, so it is necessary if your wanting to respond to the inivitation of discipleship in Jesus as the NT records it.

Edited May 28, 2009 by AnthonyB

[Justice]

So, you're saying we take no action of our own in our baptism?

Ordinances ARE works. We make covenants.

The only way you can say baptism isn't a work is if someone drags you down to the water and dunks you against your will. The baptism would then be void because you made no covenant. But, if you willingly submit, and go through everything necessary to be baptized, you DID something. It is a work.

Your dilemma is you can't separate that from Christ's works. The scriptures do.

Christ did not get baptized for you. Christ was baptized for Himself. He commanded you to be baptized for yourself. You must DO it. It's a choice you make and a covenant you make. Without the actions that lead up to baptism, it wouldn't happen. It's your choice. You are not forced.

Look how much more clear the Book of Mormon makes it:

3 Nephi 11:

31 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will declare unto you my doctrine.

32 And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.

33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.

34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.

35 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost.

36 And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.

37 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things.

38 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.

These words are spoken in the Bible also, just not as clearly.

[Justice]

The other thing to keep in mind here is that just because one inherits the kingdom of God does not mean they have eternal life. They have been saved from outer darkness or the lake of fire, so they have been "saved." There are many mansions or glories in God's kingdom. Eternal life is the highest.

[Hemidakota]

Baptism isn't a work!

Firstly it is passive, "be baptized" is a passive verb, it is something that is done to us not something we do. In two senses, someone else dunk us. Secondly all the things attached to baptism are things God does for us not things we do for ourselves. It is god who remits our sin etc.

All we supply is faith and a willingness to obey Jesus command. If supplying faith is a work then every single person who has believed in Christ has earnt their salvation.

Baptism is an integral part of the expression of faith in the NT, so it is necessary if your wanting to respond to the inivitation of discipleship in Jesus as the NT records it.

If baptism is an divine ordinance, then it is considered 'work'.

[the Ogre]

"Pam, no points, no score. Salvation has no scoring accept for thumbs up or thumbs down. Simple.

Jim: I must have had you in mind when I was reading my scriptures this morning, because I found something that might be useful to you right from the mighty pen of Paul:

1 Cor 9.24-25

24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

We are all to avoid the corruptible crown. We need that perfect crown. That is why we run so hard, just as Paul does, to win that crown. Isn't this cool? You believe that by saying the race exists you'll win. Latter-day Saints are pulling up their shorts and lacing their shoes and running, running, running knowing the end is in sight, knowing we need the coach to run beside us whooping it up, encouraging us to keep moving, keep running, keep putting one step in front of another and eventually we'll make it knowing we need the coach's help.

You keep having faith in the race. We'll keep lacing-up and running. I hope we both make it.

[AnthonyB]

Paul defines works...

RO 4:4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:"

In Paul's terms it is not any "action" that is a work but actions that obligates payment. Do you demand payment every time you sign a contract? Or for every action you take?!?

We don't make a covenant, we agree to the covenant that is offerred. God offerrs a gift but sets conditions on its receiving. If I offered you a gift of a million dollars but insisted that you come to Australia to pick it up, the flight to Australia is not work. It is just meeting the conditions for getting a gift. I'm not obligated to pay you for the trip and the gift is not being given because you made the trip but because I decided to offer you a gift. Gift givers have the rights to set conditions for someone recieving a gift from them.

So why do you think repent, confess, believe are active verbs and "be baptised" is a passive verb?

Edited May 28, 2009 by AnthonyB

[Hemidakota]

It really doesn't matter what are English rules for word usage, check the many writings of any general authority or prophet, it remains as works.

[Justice]

Paul defines works...

RO 4:4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:"

Ouch. I can't believe you used Romans 4 to make your point against works. This is one of the best chapters to understand what works they were talking about.

I mentioned this in a different thread, but you may not have read it.

Remember this about the epistles in the New Testament. The Apostles wrote letters to the churches to correct doctrines and practices that were wrong, as well as to teach correct ones. But, they don't mention the question they are trying to answer, they just go right in to the answer. If you can figure out the question they are answering you can solve many mysteries in the New Testament.

Please go slowly Anthony, if for no other reason that you can understand me.

Read the chapter in context and it becomes clear (I'll use the KJV):

Romans 4:

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

Why does Paul use Abraham as an example? I'm going to say because Abraham was considered righteous by the Jews yet he was not under the Law of Moses, or circumcision (you will see why this is important).

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Since Abraham was not under the Law of Moses, or "the Law of Works," he could have gloried in his works (of faith) since he was justified, because he was not under a law of works, but of faith. So, that means it was impossible that he was justified by the works of the Law of Moses, but justified by the Law of Faith.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Abraham believed God because he kept God's commandments... but not the commandments under the Law of Moses.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

If you're under the Law of Moses the reward (not eternal life--but the determination of righteousness) is not reckoned by grace, but by debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

To him who is not under the Law of Moses (like Abraham or the Gentile trying to join the church) but believes (as Abraham did--shown by keeping the commandments of Him who justifies) in Christ, it is counted to him for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

David described Abraham being justified by the Law of Faith as well (implying Gentiles can be also).

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

As long as one believes in Christ, and keep His commandments of Faith, his sins are forgiven, which was the intent of the Law of Moses to teach of the coming Messiah.

9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

So, can this justification, or forgiveness of sin, come to those under the Law of Moses only? If Abraham was righteous, and had his sin forgiven, then obviously it wasn't the Law of Moses that did it.

10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

It was reckoned to Abraham while he was not circumcised (implying Gentiles do not need to be circumcised).

11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

He made a covenant with God, or the sign of circumcision (associated covenants), proving those not in circumcision only need to come to Christ to be justified, and do not have to pass through the Law of Moses, or become circumcised.

12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

"Walk in the steps of that faith" is an important phrase, and it means Abraham kept the commandments attached to the Law of Faith (this implies he did something, or worked). It is one the Jews understood because they walked in the steps of the Law of Moses, which covenant was signified by circumcision, and by each and every work they had to perform every day.

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

The promise or covenant Abraham made was not through the Law of Moses, but through the Law of Faith, or Messiah's Law.

14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

If the promise or covenant would have ben made through the Law of Moses, then they could not receive a remission of sins through the Law of Faith (Christ's Law (the only way it could be done).

15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

"Works" as mentioned in these verses is referring to the Law of Moses, except for the instance it is referring to the Law of Christ, or keeping Christ's commandments. Since Abraham came before the Law of Moses he was not under that law (of works). Paul is using this perfect example of one who they believe was justified (Abraham) but was not under the Law (of Moses).

So, what was the question? Did you see it?

Jews who converted to Christ, which was the vast majority of the Church at first, since Christ only preached to the Jews, thought everyone who joined the Church needed to be circumcised (make those covenants) before they were baptized just as they had.

Paul is simply explaining to them why they don't need to be, using Abraham as an example.

In Paul's terms it is not any "action" that is a work but actions that obligates payment. Do you demand payment every time you sign a contract? Or for every action you take?!?

Once you recognize the difference between ther works of the Law of Moses and the works of the Law of Christ (the commandments Christ gave, which by the way, were higher commandments than the ones Moses gave) then you can see where this statement is incorrect.

Now, with this understanding you should go back and re-read Romans 4 several times until you see it.

We don't make a covenant, we agree to the covenant that is offerred. God offerrs a gift but sets conditions on its receiving. If I offered you a gift of a million dollars but insisted that you come to Australia to pick it up, the flight to Australia is not work. It is just meeting the conditions for getting a gift. I'm not obligated to pay you for the trip and the gift is not being given because you made the trip but because I decided to offer you a gift. Gift givers have the rights to set conditions for someone recieving a gift from them.

So why do you think repent, confess, believe are active verbs and "be baptised" is a passive verb?

The Jews were wanting Gentile converts to make MORE covenants, even covenants the Jews themselves were unable to keep. So, again, I say it IS about covenants. I don't see any difference between "making a covenant" with God and "agreeing to the covenant that is offered." It is the same. God sets the conditions (gives the law), and says what the promised blessings are for obedience and the punishment is for disobedience, then we agree to be obedient, acepting the terms of both the reward and punishment attached, making it a covenant. The sign of the covenant of the Law of Moses was circumcision. The sign of the Law of Christ is baptism.

The flight to Australia IS a work because it is what I must do to receive the gift. If I do not make the trip to Australia (which I am not forced to do) I will not receive the gift. It is what I do; it is my offering; my sacrifice. We sacrifice something lesser for something greater. I am out the cost of a plane ticket and time and effort of getting to Australia, but in reward I can do so many more good things with the gift I received. There would be no reception if I didn't trust I would receive it (believe it), get up off my lazy butt and go to the designated place (work).

You have argued my points very nicely. :)

Edited May 28, 2009 by Justice

[Maureen]

I have a Facebook friend (who is also a friend friend) whose eldest son will be going on his mission sometime this year. From what I can tell, he seems excited to go. On FB he shared in his “Notes” a favorite poem:

St. Kevin and the Blackbird – Seamus Heaney.

And then there was St. Kevin and the blackbird.

The saint is kneeling, arms stretched out, inside

His cell, but the cell is narrow, so

One turned-up palm is out the window, stiff

As a crossbeam, when a blackbird lands

And lays in it and settles down to nest.

Kevin feels the warm eggs, the small breast, the tucked

Neat head and claws and, finding himself linked

Into the network of eternal life,

Is moved to pity: Now he must hold his hand

Like a branch out in the sun and rain for weeks

Until the young are hatched and fledged and flown.

*

And since the whole thing's imagined anyhow,

Imagine being Kevin. Which is he?

self-forgetful or in agony all the time

From the neck on out down through his hurting forearms?

Are his fingers sleeping? Does he still feel his knees?

Or has the shut-eyed blank of underearth

Crept up through him? Is there distance in his head?

Alone and mirrored clear in love's deep river,

'To labour and not to seek reward,' he prays,

A prayer his body makes entirely

For he has forgotten self, forgotten bird,

And on the riverbank forgotten the river's name.

One of his FB friends asked him to share his insights regarding the poem and this is what he wrote:

It *is* amazing. I have many insights on this... but what I like most is the stoicism (not to be confused with apathy) which St. Kevin embodies through both the physical (first half) and metaphysical (last half). It is truly the only righteous desire--to do God's Will, simply because we are commanded to do it. Not for personal gain. Not for blessings. Not for others. But because it is right.

I also love the (most likely unintentional on Heaney's part--he was Catholic) allusion to the soul being a unification of body and spirit... that the act of prayer is both an act of faith (kneeling, arms outsretched... that's how they used to do it in St. Kevin's day) and an excercise of metaphysical desire of faith. Makes me remember just how faith is dead without works... and works are useless without faith.

Bottom line is... it was my end goal is all about... becoming stoic and pure... hopefully to inherit my second estate... but not for that reason; but because God Wills it. (by the future Elder Hume)

I love his thoughts.

Sometimes we should do things just because it is the right thing to do. Not for blessings or rewards but because we know it is right and because we love God. We are justified in God’s eyes through our faith and we demonstrate our love for God through our works. Faith and works (baptism) go hand in hand. God knows who we are by our heart, mankind knows who we are by our actions. It's up to us to determine what are actions mean and why we do them.

M.

Edited May 29, 2009 by Maureen

[Justice]

Very nice, Maureen.

We are justified in God’s eyes through our faith and we demonstrate our love for God through our works. Faith and works (baptism) go hand in hand. God knows who we are by our heart, mankind knows who we are by our actions. It's up to us to determine what our actions mean and why we do them.

I don't understand most Christian's hesitancy to express works as showing our love and offering our sacrifice of will to God. Those works don't have to earn us salvation. But, they certainly are commandments, and being such they are required for any person who believes in Christ.

It's true, if He did not reveal Himself to us, and He did not send His Spirit to help us moment to moment, if it were not for this plan of redemption, we would never be able to even KNOW what to do, much less overcome the darkness in this world enough to actually do it. But, He gives us power to become (and do) more than we can on our own (grace). What would be the grand purpose for us if He took charge of us and overpowered us to do His will? How could He reward or punish justly? Every fiber of His creations KNOWS He can do that. He KNOWS He can do that. No, there is a higher purpose, which purpose is for us. He created this world for US. He sent His Son to die for US. Not only did Jesus die for us, but He lived for us. He showed us a perfect example of how we are to keep His commandments... for US, not for Himself.

How can one who claims that Jesus Christ is God's Son ignore the fact that He does these things for US?

I feel too many Christians don't take time to relax, sit and ponder about the eternities and why God does what He does. It's for US. He gave us the ability to choose, so why would He not let us exercise that ability (agency)?

Edited May 29, 2009 by Justice

[pam]

But, He gives us power to become (and do) more than we can on our own (grace). What would be the grand purpose for us if He took charge of us and overpowered us to do His will?

If this were the case where we were not given choice and were overpowered to do His will...wouldn't that have been more in line with Lucifer's plan? Did not Lucifer want to take away all agency from us?

Edited May 29, 2009 by pam