Hopi indians and america artifacts.

[rameumptom]

Incan - Life, the Universe, and Etcetera

I did some research on this and found the authors either non-existent or biased. Pedro Sarmiento "...hoped such a history would justify Spanish colonization by revealing the violent history of the Incas" - and claims that the Incan's are from the lost ciilization of Atlantis. I and anyone else reading this should take these europian accounts with a shaker of salt.

Pedro Sarmiento de Gamboa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I was wondering if anyone had access to pre-europian native american accounts, seeing as how there is hardly any history of Mayan origin.

There were less than ten pre-Spaniard books that survived the Conquistadors destructions. Yes, some scholars question the early Spanish writers concerning these stories as being biased. But all writers back then were biased.

The point is, there is a common story in many places of a white god that comes and does stuff among the peoples anciently. It is very doubtful that this concept was spread between Spanish priests, who all tried to save the Indians from the savage slavery many of them were in by the Conquistadors. And there is no reason to disbelieve a story that is not directly connected to the Bible, as some of the stories do (the ark and Flood, tower of Babel, etc). This story easily seems to tie directly to the Book of Mormon, which the writer would not have had access to.

Here we have evidence of a story that comes to us from two places, but with one possible ancient source.

BTW, if you are looking for indisputable evidence, then I suggest you get out of history and into mathematics. History was, is and always will be sloppy. It was usually written by the victors, and they always put a spin on it. We see this in the Bible, on Egyptian walls (especially from Ramses II, who wrote over others' inscriptions), etc.

Edited June 4, 2009 by rameumptom

[myway]

Great post Rameumpton,

This is a fascinating topic. I think your point about ancient historians being biased is very valid. You seem very up to date on a lot of this, have you watched any of the Backyard Professor videos on Youtube?

[Dawnforge]

This story easily seems to tie directly to the Book of Mormon, which the writer would not have had access to.

The writer of the book of mormon had access to this material. I'm interested in native american accounts, not incan; for obvious reasons.

Edited June 5, 2009 by Dawnforge

[Dawnforge]

You didn't check out the link? I checked the link and it works. Anyway, here's the portion of the link that directly ties in:

My mistake. I was confused because the words "days" isn't used and it's so similar to pagan winter soltice accounts.

Did you notice Viraocha isn't mentioned until the end of the article in the second paragraph? I wonder who the first guy was?

[rameumptom]

Great post Rameumpton,

This is a fascinating topic. I think your point about ancient historians being biased is very valid. You seem very up to date on a lot of this, have you watched any of the Backyard Professor videos on Youtube?

Kerry Shirts and I are good friends. He was the one that got me deeply involved in LDS philosophy, back in 2004, when he insisted at the FAIR conference that I had to buy and read Blake Ostler's book on Mormon Philosophy of God. I had nose bleeds for weeks, but ever since the hemorrhaging stopped I've been okay, except for the headaches, that is.

[rameumptom]

The writer of the book of mormon had access to this material. I'm interested in native american accounts, not incan; for obvious reasons.

If you are referring to Joseph Smith, no he did not. These Spanish stories were not easily available in the USA until long after. Even today, most people are unaware of such books.

BTW, Incans ARE Native Americans. Perhaps you need to rethink some of your statements and demands?

Given that most LDS scholars believe the Nephites were more likely in Central America, you will probably not find many stories in North America. There is evidence of trade among the peoples of the Andes and Central America, so there is a good chance they traded stories.

Of course, there is always the possibility that Jesus visited other areas of the Americas (are there other Israelites that also came here?), but we just don't know. There are, of course, evidences in North America of an Israelite presence, such as the Bat Creek Stone , or the Los Lunas Decalogue, which Prof Cyrus Gordon considered authentic.

Once again, history is sloppy. So you can find historians and archaeologists that will authenticate, reject and/or ignore such evidences.

[rameumptom]

My mistake. I was confused because the words "days" isn't used and it's so similar to pagan winter soltice accounts.

Did you notice Viraocha isn't mentioned until the end of the article in the second paragraph? I wonder who the first guy was?

I have the entire account in a book from Bolivia (where I served my mission), and the stories in that portion are all about Viracocha, according to Jesus Lara, a Bolivian history expert.

[myway]

Kerry Shirts and I are good friends. He was the one that got me deeply involved in LDS philosophy, back in 2004, when he insisted at the FAIR conference that I had to buy and read Blake Ostler's book on Mormon Philosophy of God. I had nose bleeds for weeks, but ever since the hemorrhaging stopped I've been okay, except for the headaches, that is.

The Backyard Profesor series has really opened up my mind in so many different aspects of the LDS faith. He is truly amazing! Watching his videos happened to be one of my first encounters with the Church. They helped me intially begin to check into the Church. Almost two years later, and now a member. I don't think even he realizes how much he helps investigators and people like me.:)

[Dawnforge]

If you are referring to Joseph Smith, no he did not. These Spanish stories were not easily available in the USA until long after. Even today, most people are unaware of such books.

Just because you think it wasn't easily accessible doesn't mean he didn't have access to them. He certainly did. That's besides the point. There are dozens of solstice myths just like this one. Discussing this topic on length only shows how derivative it is.

BTW, Incans ARE Native Americans. Perhaps you need to rethink some of your statements and demands?

Of course they are native americans, but Incans and Mayans do not refer to themselves as native americans and that's the difference. You're arguing semantics. Please refrain from this kind of thing so we can keep it civilized.

Once again, history is sloppy. So you can find historians and archaeologists that will authenticate, reject and/or ignore such evidences.

I have only reasonable expectations for the validity of the historical accounts, not absolute efficacy. Of course historical accounts will be skewed, that's fine. I want something that isn't biased beyond recognition and has an original/contemporary source. This is not unreasonable.

Regardless of whether scholars think nephites were in central america or not is not the point. My girlfriend and the missionary specifically mentioned the hopi indians. That is what I'm looking for and this is why I'm here. If there is no reference for it then so be it. I will close my inquiry about the hopi and focus on the next question: are there any america artifacts left over by the nephites and the laminates? If so, where can I see them? I've done some research and haven't found much. If there's anything I've learned since I've been here it's that the people on this site have access to some obscure and interesting material not readily available on the web.

Also, thank you for the links :)

Edited June 6, 2009 by Dawnforge

[myway]

As far as archeological evidence for Nephite and Lamanite civilizations in America goes, I typically go to the Farms site. I know lots of scholarly types discount the Farms site, however there is some great information on there. Another great resource is Jeff Lindsay's site.

Even archeology has it's sketchy points. I suppose it just comes down to is if the evidence that is provided by LDS and non-LDS members is enough to solidify an opinion. As I stated before, even archeology can be a slippery slope. It changes all the time. According to Archeologist past roughly 11,500 yrs. ago the ancestors to the American Indian had traveled across a land mass from Siberia into North America thereby establishing these people as being the first "Americans".

However in recent years new theories have came about that challenge that theory. I was watching a program on the history channel a while back. An archeologist/Paleontologist?, was at a dig. While going past the sedentary layers of what what believed to 11, 500 yrs. old, he had dug deeper. He was still finding artifacts that were dating 15,000 yrs. ago, and were not of Indian craft, how could this be? He found spear points that pre-dated that time. Archeologist dismissed his find all together because it did not agree with they're established accounts. They did not want to admit that they may have been wrong. They're ego supressed the evidence of a people who may have pre-dated the native American as we know today.

Look at some of the archeology of Biblical times. What we think we knew yesterday, has changed. Just remeber, not too long ago everyone believed the world was as flat as a pancake....not too long ago we put a man on the moon. Today we have the internet. Ponder what possibilities we will have tomorrow.

[rameumptom]

Just because you think it wasn't easily accessible doesn't mean he didn't have access to them. He certainly did. That's besides the point. There are dozens of solstice myths just like this one. Discussing this topic on length only shows how derivative it is.

This is a problematic statement. Why? Because it is used on every single instance where Joseph got something right. He correctly guessed the location of a place called "Nahom", so he must have had some ancient maps of the place. He correctly guessed 40 names in the BoM, so he must have had ancient documents with those names (and able to translate them). He included stuff that's only found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, and so he must have had a copy of the DSS.

It wasn't a solstice myth, because the Incans always fear a great darkness at the end of the world. Solstice is just the darkest night of the year, not a long period of time of darkness where they pray for the sun to return. Unlike Alaska, where there are 6 months of darkness, the Tropic of Capricorn basically has 12 hours of sunshine each day of the year.

Let's get real. Unless you can provide evidence of what was in the local library of Palmyra, New York, and that it had Spanish clergy stories, in English, then I'd say you need to get another story line.

Of course they are native americans, but Incans and Mayans do not refer to themselves as native americans and that's the difference. You're arguing semantics. Please refrain from this kind of thing so we can keep it civilized.

Actually, modern ones DO. They are going through a fight for power in many countries. Bolivia recently elected its first Indian president, Evo Morales. There's constantly been a fight between the European Bolivians and the Native Americans there. The same applies in Mexico and elsewhere.

I have only reasonable expectations for the validity of the historical accounts, not absolute efficacy. Of course historical accounts will be skewed, that's fine. I want something that isn't biased beyond recognition and has an original/contemporary source. This is not unreasonable.

It is unreasonable if you are looking to find unbiased stories among the Native Americans in the USA or elsewhere. History is full of biases, and especially among oral traditions, which is what you are going to get among peoples with no written language. I think you have a very high standard, which history will not satisfy you. If archaeologists set such a standard on ancient things, we would not learn anything about our ancestors.

Regardless of whether scholars think nephites were in central america or not is not the point. My girlfriend and the missionary specifically mentioned the hopi indians. That is what I'm looking for and this is why I'm here. If there is no reference for it then so be it. I will close my inquiry about the hopi and focus on the next question: are there any america artifacts left over by the nephites and the laminates? If so, where can I see them? I've done some research and haven't found much. If there's anything I've learned since I've been here it's that the people on this site have access to some obscure and interesting material not readily available on the web.

The problem is, what would a Nephite or Lamanite artifact look like? We have the religious history of the Nephites, not the Lamanites. We have internal evidence that the Nephites and Lamanites absorbed or were absorbed by other groups. In Central America, evidence shows that group after group also were absorbed by others, and sometimes their lore was lost, and sometimes it was absorbed by the new group. As I stated, most LDS scholars do not believe that the Nephites ever made it as a people to the USA region. Why should we think to find artifacts here?

As for Central America, cities were built upon cities. They've found 5 layers in many instances, including temples being covered over to build larger temples in later times! Most of the research has been done on the Maya, who came after Nephite times. So, little work has been done in the correct time period. Still, even if they did, what would denote evidence from the Nephites? A sign saying, "5 miles to Zarahemla"?

One thing which Brant Gardner, a respected expert in Mesoamerican studies, says is that we have to see if the Nephite story fits into Mesoamerican context (and not the other way around). And he has given several FAIR conference talks on just this issue. I suggest you look at some of the articles at fairlds.org to see just how much ancient stuff is in the BoM, from both a Mesoamerican stand point, as well as an ancient Jewish stand point.