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vall74

Problem with testimony

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Hi, I have been a member for 15 years. My wife recently told me she doesn't believe the Joseph Smith story. She hasn't been exposed to anti stuff. When she told me that, I was shocked, and devastated. Then she told me she thinks I don't know for sure as well. I thought about what she said and realized that yes, maybe she is right. I probably don't know for sure, but really really deeply believe it. There is a big difference between knowing and believing. I wonder, when people testify during fast and testimony meetings and always say they know if they really know?

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There's a broad spectrum of the definition of "know" when spoken behind a church pulpit. :lol:

I, for one, "know" - though I've seen no angels, enjoyed no theophany, touched no plates, heard no choirs from heaven...

But the cumulative "believes" I can claim culminate together to form a logical conclusion that assures me I "know" of the truthfulness of this work.

If you're struggling in your testimony (alongside your wife), I would encourage you to look at all you believe and think to be right - and see what all that adds up to. There will ALWAYS be things that are unanswerable - sometimes uncomfortable - and even don't always make sense in your head... but when one raised eyebrow is pitted against a thousand other positive witnesses you've experienced, the logical conclusion is clear.

Good luck and have faith.

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There is a big difference between knowing and believing.

Man, you sure got that right. I went inactive for 6 years over a similar realization that you talk about. It dawned on me that not only did I not know, I didn't believe either.

So, whatcha gonna do about it? I can tell you that God understands what you've just come to understand - there is a big difference between knowledge and belief. There's a difference between an "I know" testimony and an "I believe" faith-based testimony. Knowledge is promised you. There are scriptures about how to get there. Doubt is good, but unresolved doubt festers and moulders.

I wonder, when people testify during fast and testimony meetings and always say they know if they really know?

What difference does that make to you if people are on a different level, or have a less mature understanding of the difference? The real question is - what are you going to do about yourself?

LM

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Hi, I have been a member for 15 years. My wife recently told me she doesn't believe the Joseph Smith story. She hasn't been exposed to anti stuff. When she told me that, I was shocked, and devastated. Then she told me she thinks I don't know for sure as well. I thought about what she said and realized that yes, maybe she is right. I probably don't know for sure, but really really deeply believe it. There is a big difference between knowing and believing. I wonder, when people testify during fast and testimony meetings and always say they know if they really know?

You're right. They (we) DON'T know - though many will claim that they do - they just don't understand the difference between being convinced and actually knowing.

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Yet there are many that would argue that there is no way you could "know" without having tangible evidence. At what point do you think you can say you "know" even without having that evidence placed before you?

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I don't "know" either. In testimonies I never claim such, only that I believe, or believe strongly, or have evidences that cause me to believe.

I understand however why others choose to use that word - 1) they might really know, or have a personal witness that has been stronger than my own, or 2) they want to express how much they are assured it is true, or 3) they are following a Mormon cultural trend to use the word know.

Regardless of the answer, it doesn't matter. If you realize you don't know, don't feel bad. Knowledge of these things does not come easily - it takes a LOT of faith first.

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the things we "know" on earthy may change after we leave.....knowing can be relative...and yet we can get knowledge from prayer, or from what i was taught in meditation as radical understanding.......lol, took me a while for that one..........but still, it all comes through the veil, and until that is re4moved, we have to go with the little we know and have faith about the rest.......if we can.

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We can know.

I know!

Seeing is not believing, but believing is seeing.

I know Joseph Smith was a prophet, because I KNOW the Book of Mormon is true.

vall74, it all rests with the Book of Mormon. I suggest you study it every spare minute you get, not just 10 or 15 minutes set aside each day. But, open it and dive in; immerse yourself in it. Open your heart and pray to know it's true.

You don't have to see an angel to know. Even seeing an angel doesn't convince many.

Take time and ponder about all the things the Lord is doing for you in your life. Many times we don't recognize them. This leads us to doubt. The very proof you seek is found in what He is doing for you.

Study; digest; feast on the Book of Mormon. It is the word of God. Once you remember that it is true, you will not even be able to imagine how you ever doubted.

We all go through up and down times. Don't let it discourage you, just fight back harder.

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My above quote is by Eric Butterworth:

"Seeing is not believing; believing is seeing!"

Here is another by Thoreau:

“If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours. He will put some things behind, will pass an invisible boundary: new, universal, and more liberal laws will begin to establish themselves around and within him; or old laws will be expanded and interpreted in his favor in a more liberal sense, and he will live with license of a higher order of beings.”

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I know its true...

I don't know about other people, but I like to think carefully before speaking, so before I would go to the pulpit and testify I "know" I had gone to a process of aquiring the knowledge to make the stamtement, so I say I know because I do.

Is similar when a parent tells his/her son "I love you", you know you love him, you dont believe you love you KNOW it deep in your heart.. can´t explain why you do but certainly you do..

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There is such a thing as knowing as if you had seen. And I don't see problems with the believing stages that happen on the road to such knowing.

What are you two going to do about your testimony issues? You have a few choices in front of you.

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There's nothing wrong with confessing we don't "know", but I think it's important not to let that lull us into some kind of "testimonial nihilism" ("I don't know, so I can't know--and neither can anyone else").

To some it is given to believe on the words of those who know--but to others it is, indeed, given to know. (D&C 46:13-14).

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Its true that we don't know gospel truths in a logical way, or on a way based on physical evidence. But we can KNOW of spiritual things that are hidden to the rest of the world. We can receive a spiritual manifestation of all things, accordingly to our faith and desire to know.

"And by the power of the Holy Ghost, you may know the truth of all things" - Moroni 10:5

If we allow ourselves to believe that no one can 'truly know' of spiritual things, than we are denying the power of God in our lives. We are denying promptings of the Holy Ghost before we even receive them. Can the Lord manifest sacred things to those who dont believe it would be possible to receive them? Would the Lord reveal things that have been hidden since the foundation of the world, to those who would not accept them? Keep these scriptures in mind

"For we walk by faith, not by sight" 2 Corinthians 5:7

"...he manifesteth himself unto all those who believe in him, by the power of the Holy Ghost; yea, unto every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, working mighty miracles, signs, and wonders, among the children of men according to their faith. " 2 Nephi 26:13

It is definetly possible for each one of us to know of profound spiritual proofs. My best guess is that the Lord will not reveal them to those who are not prepared to receive them. It takes alot of effort and willingness off of our part. To some it takes longer than others. We need to start with a desire to believe, and then nourish that desire with faith through scripture study and prayer. If we wouldn't be able to receive access to those things, than all our effort in the search of truth would be vain, because as the Lord Himself has said:

"...And this is life beternal, that they migh know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

Edited by Ezequiel

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I am still convinced its true, but its my wife. How do I go from here? She came across the info that Joseph Smith married already married women, and she read the apologetics answer to that in which they admit that its true and quite possibly there were sexual relations with one of the women. The gospel could be still true regardless of that, but she can't understand how a prophet could marry a married women, and how would that fit with the live of Jesus Christ. Please help me, I don't know what to tell her!

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Hi, I have been a member for 15 years. My wife recently told me she doesn't believe the Joseph Smith story. She hasn't been exposed to anti stuff. When she told me that, I was shocked, and devastated. Then she told me she thinks I don't know for sure as well. I thought about what she said and realized that yes, maybe she is right. I probably don't know for sure, but really really deeply believe it. There is a big difference between knowing and believing. I wonder, when people testify during fast and testimony meetings and always say they know if they really know?

Most members do not use the proper terms when they give a testimony on fast Sunday. Often, I do spend the moment in listening to other testimony and wait for the confirmation of the Spirit when it is moving testimony of sincerity. The term 'KNOWING' means just that. It is a first hand witness of any event given by the Godhead or a ministering Spirit.

Having not a testimony of Joseph Smith and being a member of church is not conducive for one's personal testimony. When looking at the priorities of a personal testimony, I do consider Joseph Smith the second foundation of such. What I do considered being the first foundation is Jesus the Christ. Both of which should be a requirement for house to be built on a rock. Third is the church. Fourth is added scriptures that testify of Christ and the works.

Believing in something is the same as saying, having hope and faith in something in not seeing but awaiting that day of a first hand event to occur. My brother, it will occur if we have that desire and through our personal trials of fire and through those experiences when we are given these events.

Did not the Lord tell us to search out the scriptures that testify of Him?

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The term 'KNOWING' means just that. It is a first hand witness of any event given by the Godhead or a ministering Spirit.

Sorry, Hemi. Deepest respect to your knowledge and faith, but I have to politely (but firmly) disagree here. I happen to KNOW I cannot breathe in space, though I have no first hand witness. I happen to KNOW that swimming in hot lava will be bad for my complexion - though I have no first hand witness.

The ancillary truths I've learned regarding my need for oxygen, etc allow me to KNOW these things without first hand proof. The same goes for my KNOWING that God lives, my KNOWING that Jesus Christ is my Redeemer, for KNOWING that His gospel was restored through Joseph Smith...

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[Jhn 14:9] "Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?"

We can know without seeing. Have we not had a witness from the HG? Has not our breasts burned within? Then why can we not know? The spirit gives us a witness and we know spiritually. Just as I know how to turn on the lights in my house. 300 years ago that would of been a miracle if witnessed but is it not. It knowledge. Knowledge to produce electricity and the understanding of the principles behind it. The spirit works within the same principles, we just haven't been given that knowledge but none the less a witness is a witness we do not need to understand how it works. IT JUST WORKS. That is how I know, spiritually.

-Marty

Ps. How does Christ know all things? By the spirit. (or light really)

[Jhn 21:17] "thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep"

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Sorry, Hemi. Deepest respect to your knowledge and faith, but I have to politely (but firmly) disagree here. I happen to KNOW I cannot breathe in space, though I have no first hand witness. I happen to KNOW that swimming in hot lava will be bad for my complexion - though I have no first hand witness.

The ancillary truths I've learned regarding my need for oxygen, etc allow me to KNOW these things without first hand proof. The same goes for my KNOWING that God lives, my KNOWING that Jesus Christ is my Redeemer, for KNOWING that His gospel was restored through Joseph Smith...

Good case...^_^

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:lol: No problem but you do understand there are double meanings in the English language?

[Dictionary] KNOWING: suggestive of secret or private knowledge

I don't disagree at all that you posted an accurate definition of "know". It was simply that the way I read your post inferred that your definition was the only proper interpretation. That's all. :D

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:lol: No problem but you do understand there are double meanings in the English language?

[Dictionary] KNOWING: suggestive of secret or private knowledge

No doubt this definition which derives from gnosticism exists, but I think many of us were using the word based on its common meaning. I suppose if we toy with the idea and make all truths relative, then the earth could be flat and the creationists right. Those with a yen for science, who insist that knowing comes from more than insisting that one knows, would disagree with this concept.

Knowing is not a more macho form of believing.

:)

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