3 Degrees of Glory


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I know this has been debated recently in a few threads (one by Pam, I think). I tried to find Pam's thread to comment there, but could not find it.

I understand the LDS church does not teach that there is progression between kingdoms.

For most of my life I have accepted this without question.

But the more I think about it -- some things just don't make sense anymore.

What "bothers" me is my understanding of the ROLE of each member of the Godhead. My understanding of their roles is this:

Elohim - Author of the Plan of Salvation

Jesus Christ - Administers Elohim's plan

Holy Ghost - "Medium" through which the Plan of Salvation is administered unto us by Jesus Christ. The Holy Ghost "speaks the words of Christ" -- quite literally.

More to the point -- this is how I see their MISSION. How each one interacts with us and for what reason:

Holy Ghost -- leads us unto -- Jesus Christ -- who leads us unto -- Elohim, who makes us Joint Heirs with Christ, gives us all that He has!

Now, I take the above truths (again, my interpretation) and apply them to the Three Degrees of Glory. As I understand it, the following is true:

Celestial Kingdom - Elohim ministers unto them

Terrestrial Kingdom - Jesus Christ ministers unto them

Telestial Kingdom - Holy Ghost ministers unto them

I just don't understand how progression between kingdoms is not true. How it will not be possible.

When I think about any kind of life outside of Celestial Glory -- being who I am -- I just don't see how I could be happy. How could I be the SAME PERSON I am today, and be happy?

Am I to believe that a TRILLION BILLION years is not enough time for me to find that obedience and that willingness that was required?

I welcome your thoughts. No rebuttal is needed. I know the Church's position. It just does not follow with what I know of the Godhead. The reason that each member of the Godhead ministers to each of the 3 degrees of Glory is never talked about or explained. Why? Why why why?????

Tom

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I don't think the church has an official position on it?

There was a discussion on it on MADB a week ago and in the back and forth between both sides that "trump card" was not played so i don't think it exist.

Before someone quotes the 7 deadly heresies byu talk note that is no more official then the Larry king interview (no caffeinated beverages) and also states that organic evolution does not exist.

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Am I to believe that a TRILLION BILLION years is not enough time for me to find that obedience and that willingness that was required?

This is the key argument for progression. The problem is, it in a way it cut shorts God’s Judgment.

The idea is, given enough time I would have been able to keep the commandments. That in a way the Plan of Salvation that was created to test and exalted people doesn’t fit for me, because I need more time!

The point is we know from the scriptures that this is the time to prove ourselves. That’s what makes it part of the test! God also knows this, and also knows our intentions. He knows if we only needed two more days would we have changed our desires? Two more weeks, two more years?

God knows this, and planed the test accordingly. If we are not willing to change and accept Christ and Heavenly Father in the parameters of the test, then we aren’t going to change if we are giving More time.

The reason those in the Telestial Kingdom are in that kingdom is because they rejected Christ and his Atonement. They didn’t want to follow the Gospel. For whatever reason they either rejected Christ or did stuff so bad that they couldn’t have Christ’s atonement cover them.

I don’t see how asking them the question a million times helps them? (do you accpet Christ as your Savior?) Actually in a way it goes against there agency. Part of having agency is dealing with the consensuses of your choices.

Holy Ghost -- leads us unto -- Jesus Christ -- who leads us unto -- Elohim, who makes us Joint Heirs with Christ, gives us all that He has!

This is an actually interesting idea. But this is what happens in world were all three (members) are able to be accessed. Meaning can those in the Telestial gain Terrestial Knowledge? Or can those in the Telestial Kingdom gain more light then what there kingdom has? To me I don’t see how that can happen. Which means I don’t see how they can progress. Now others do point out that God and Christ can visit lower kingdoms. But I don't see that being them bring more light.

Before someone quotes the 7 deadly heresies byu talk note that is no more official then the Larry king interview (no caffeinated beverages) and also states that organic evolution does not exist.

Its not really the talk per say but more the Scripture that is quoted in it. Section 76 is quoted about those in the Telestial Kingdom which says where God and Christ dwell they can’t come worlds without end. (something like that). That makes it pretty clear that you can’t progress from the Telestial Kingdom. That’s the only official view I know of. Edited by tubaloth
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I know this has been debated recently in a few threads (one by Pam, I think). I tried to find Pam's thread to comment there, but could not find it.

I understand the LDS church does not teach that there is progression between kingdoms.

For most of my life I have accepted this without question.

But the more I think about it -- some things just don't make sense anymore.

What "bothers" me is my understanding of the ROLE of each member of the Godhead. My understanding of their roles is this:

Elohim - Author of the Plan of Salvation

Jesus Christ - Administers Elohim's plan

Holy Ghost - "Medium" through which the Plan of Salvation is administered unto us by Jesus Christ. The Holy Ghost "speaks the words of Christ" -- quite literally.

More to the point -- this is how I see their MISSION. How each one interacts with us and for what reason:

Holy Ghost -- leads us unto -- Jesus Christ -- who leads us unto -- Elohim, who makes us Joint Heirs with Christ, gives us all that He has!

Now, I take the above truths (again, my interpretation) and apply them to the Three Degrees of Glory. As I understand it, the following is true:

Celestial Kingdom - Elohim ministers unto them

Terrestrial Kingdom - Jesus Christ ministers unto them

Telestial Kingdom - Holy Ghost ministers unto them

I just don't understand how progression between kingdoms is not true. How it will not be possible.

When I think about any kind of life outside of Celestial Glory -- being who I am -- I just don't see how I could be happy. How could I be the SAME PERSON I am today, and be happy?

Am I to believe that a TRILLION BILLION years is not enough time for me to find that obedience and that willingness that was required?

I welcome your thoughts. No rebuttal is needed. I know the Church's position. It just does not follow with what I know of the Godhead. The reason that each member of the Godhead ministers to each of the 3 degrees of Glory is never talked about or explained. Why? Why why why?????

Tom

Tom – I recommend a deep study of the fall – The fall of man is a basis for understanding almost all other doctrines, including the life after we die. Through the fall we understand the role of the G-dhead; in particular the role or inheritance of the Christ.

I submit that the inheritance of Christ is the glory of the Celestial Kingdom. In essence this is a personal sacrifice to benefit others. When we consider what a personal sacrifice is – it is that which is in reality personally ours alone to give. Those that look to their salvation and their blessings and benefits will be most uncomfortable in giving of themselves for others – which I see as the only real difference between the hearts and minds of the citizens of the Celestial and Terrestrial kingdoms. It is not the kingdoms that comprise the difference but the citizens. Therefore it is not a question of “progressing” between kingdoms but completely changing the essence (rebirth) of what a person is; beginning with their heart.

The Traveler

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I side with Tubaloth on the subject of progressing between kingdoms of glory.

I certainly would not stake my claim of entering the celestial kingdom by being slothful and eventually getting there in the next life. If we procrastinate the day of turning to the Lord we could find ourselves eternally shut out and damned. We are warned over and over in the Book of Mormon to not procrastinate repentance and to turn our lives over to the Lord.

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Before someone quotes the 7 deadly heresies byu talk note that is no more official then the Larry king interview (no caffeinated beverages) and also states that organic evolution does not exist.

Actually Brother McConkie poses some questions regarding organic evolution and then suggests that we all must choose for ourselves what to believe and then shares his belief and his rational for it.

These are questions to which all of us should find answers. Every person must choose for himself what he will believe. I recommend that all of you study and ponder and pray and seek light and knowledge in these and in all fields.

I believe that the atonement of Christ is the great and eternal foundation upon which revealed religion rests. I believe that no man can be saved unless he believes that our Lord's atoning sacrifice brings immortality to all and eternal life to those who believe and obey, and no man can believe in the atonement unless he accepts both the divine sonship of Christ and the fall of Adam.

My reasoning causes me to conclude that if death has always prevailed in the world, then there was no fall of Adam that brought death to all forms of life; that if Adam did not fall, there is no need for an atonement; that if there was no atonement, there is no salvation, no resurrection, and no eternal life; and that if there was no atonement, there is nothing in all of the glorious promises that the Lord has given us. I believe that the Fall affects man, all forms of life, and the earth itself.

Edited by bytor2112
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Actually Brother McConkie poses some questions regarding organic evolution and then suggests that we all must choose for ourselves what to believe and then shares his belief and his rational for it.

These are questions to which all of us should find answers. Every person must choose for himself what he will believe. I recommend that all of you study and ponder and pray and seek light and knowledge in these and in all fields.

I believe that the atonement of Christ is the great and eternal foundation upon which revealed religion rests. I believe that no man can be saved unless he believes that our Lord's atoning sacrifice brings immortality to all and eternal life to those who believe and obey, and no man can believe in the atonement unless he accepts both the divine sonship of Christ and the fall of Adam.

My reasoning causes me to conclude that if death has always prevailed in the world, then there was no fall of Adam that brought death to all forms of life; that if Adam did not fall, there is no need for an atonement; that if there was no atonement, there is no salvation, no resurrection, and no eternal life; and that if there was no atonement, there is nothing in all of the glorious promises that the Lord has given us. I believe that the Fall affects man, all forms of life, and the earth itself.

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Excellent feedback. Seriously.

Please understand, I don't mean to debate what God has said, just make sure that I actually understand what God has said!

So this whole thing with Christ ministering to the Terrestrial and the Holy Ghost ministering to the Telestial - why?

If I were a resident of either kingdom, I would find this to be kinda hard. A constant reminder that I fell short of the mark.

Lets consider that they are helping the residents of those kingdoms progress. Eventually it would seem there would be no more progression possible. Then what?

Even an existence as incredible as the Telestial Kingdom (which surpasses the understanding of man in every way) would eventually go stale, wouldn't it?

I can't comprehend eternity. I can't comprehend being "locked in" like that.

Yes, I see why God warns us with such strong language! :)

Suggesting that we can progress within those Kingdoms -- why? To what end? For what purpose?

These things keep swirling around in my head.

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Even an existence as incredible as the Telestial Kingdom (which surpasses the understanding of man in every way) would eventually go stale, wouldn't it?

Interestingly enough pretty much the same sentiment about the Celestial Kingdom has been venture on this board. (Here if you are curious)

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If I were a resident of either kingdom, I would find this to be kinda hard. A constant reminder that I fell short of the mark.

I think that's why I've heard so many talks etc about how we would feel a personal hell knowing what we have missed.

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My first question, Tom, would be what will become of those who did not keep their first estate? Is their state permanent?

My next question is why even have outer darkness for those who are resurrected? Some will come out of hell to the Telestial Kingdom, but some will not. Outer darkness is a place where souls will be sent after they have paid the utmost farthing in hell. Hell will end and those who are sons of perdition will be cast into outer darkness. If they pay the utmost farthing in hell, shouldn't they be allowed a kingdom of glory?

Tom, what did you think of Alma 41? It's only 15 verses, and it's Alma's explanation of "the restoration" that comes with the resurrection to his son Corianton. I'm curious to read your thoughts about that chapter. I'm curious to know what you think about this "state" spoken of.

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Lets consider that they are helping the residents of those kingdoms progress. Eventually it would seem there would be no more progression possible. Then what?

As I was mowing the lawn today (after I had posted) I realized I think we are getting confused of different estates. Meaning I think we for some reason feel because we are in a learning and growing process in both the First estate (premortal life) and second estate (Earth/Spirit world) that we must be able to keep learning and growing in I guess the final estate. But I would not really call the Kingdoms of Glory an estate. Its not a place we are tested and or tried like we are in the other two estates. The last phase isn't really estate at all, its a reward for what we have done for the other two estates. Once we realize this, then the idea of progression doesn't fit.

Even more if we were able to progress in the final estate then their is no point in the first two estates is there?

Now we are growing in the Celestial Kingdom, but I don't see this as a testing type growing, its more applying knowledge that we learn (or gain access to while in the Celestial Kingdom) . Trying to fix the small things about us.

If I were a resident of either kingdom, I would find this to be kinda hard. A constant reminder that I fell short of the mark

I completely feel that each person that ends up in the kingdom that they get, well realize its the kingdom they have been living there whole life. Section 88 talks about living the Law of Celestial Kingdom (or Telestial or Terrestial).

That what ever law we have kept is the glory we obtain.

I think completely that there might be some that might feel bad for a while as you are taken to the Terrestrial kingdom gates, but I think once inside those people well feel at home, because its the law they are comfortable with, or are use to.

The last comment is, those in the Telestial or Terrestial aren't being kept in the dark of what is required of them. Meaning at some point in time they were given the knowledge really of the Celestial Law. They knew what they needed to do. Those in the Terrestial made the choice not to follow it. So the idea that they need adding light or more knowledge to progress isn't the problem, they had the knowledge, they knew that Christ Atonement can save them. They made the choice that they didn't want it. So the only thing time does, is that after some million years they realize that should have accepted Christ? Its not teaching them anything new! They already knew it, and rejected it!

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Hi, Tubaloth.

The point is we know from the scriptures that this is the time to prove ourselves. That’s what makes it part of the test! God also knows this, and also knows our intentions. He knows if we only needed two more days would we have changed our desires? Two more weeks, two more years?

Or, in the case of those people who lived during the Apostasy, two more millennia...?

{Added by Edit:

I don't agree with you on this one. We know that there is a contingency plan in place for those who don't have the opportunity in this life. How does not having an opportunity in this life fit in with your notion that God has tailored His plan to accomodate the needs of individuals entirely during this life?}

Edited by Bluejay
Clarifying addition.
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My next question is why even have outer darkness for those who are resurrected? Some will come out of hell to the Telestial Kingdom, but some will not. Outer darkness is a place where souls will be sent after they have paid the utmost farthing in hell. Hell will end and those who are sons of perdition will be cast into outer darkness. If they pay the utmost farthing in hell, shouldn't they be allowed a kingdom of glory?

f.

Joseph Smith did not finished the complete cycle of when a person ends up in outer darkness and should not be taught at this time.

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“The brethren direct me to say that the Church has never announced a definite doctrine upon this point. Some of the brethren have held the view that it was possible in the course of progression to advance from one glory to another, invoking the principle of eternal progression; others of the brethren have taken the opposite view. But as stated, the Church has never announced a definite doctrine on this point.”

-Secretary to the First Presidency in a 1952 letter; and again in 1965

“None would inherit this earth when it became celestial and translated into the presence of God but those who would be crowned as Gods — all others would have to inherit another kingdom — they would eventually have the privilege of proving themselves worthy and advancing to a celestial kingdom but it would be a slow process [progress?].”

-Brigham Young, in Wilford Woodruff Journal, 5 Aug 1855

“Once a person enters these glories there will be eternal progress in the line of each of these particular glories, but the privilege of passing from one to another (though this may be possible for especially gifted and faithful characters) is not provided for.”

-Joseph F. Smith, Improvement Era 14:87 [November 1910]

“I am not a strict constructionalist, believing that we seal our eternal progress by what we do here. It is my belief that God will save all of His children that he can: and while, if we live unrighteously here, we shall not go to the other side in the same status, so to speak, as those who lived righteously; nevertheless, the unrighteous will have their chance, and in the eons of the eternities that are to follow, they, too, may climb to the destinies to which they who are righteous and serve God, have climbed to those eternities that are to come.”

-J. Reuben Clark, Church News, 23 April 1960, p. 3

“It is reasonable to believe, in the absence of direct revelation by which alone absolute knowledge of the matter could be acquired, that, in accordance with God’s plan of eternal progression, advancement from grade to grade within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom, will be provided for. But if the recipients of a lower glory be enabled to advance, surely the intelligences of higher rank will not be stopped in their progress; and thus we may conclude, that degrees and grades will ever characterize the kingdoms of our God. Eternity is progressive; perfection is relative; the essential feature of God’s living purpose is its associated power of eternal increase.”

-James E. Talmage, The Articles of Faith [1899 edition] pp. 420-421

The question of advancement within the great divisions of glory

celestial, terrestrial, and telestial; as also the question of

advancement from one sphere of glory to another remains to be

considered. In the revelation from which we have summarized what has

been written here, in respect to the different degrees of glory, it is

said that those of the terrestrial glory will be ministered unto by

those of the celestial; and those of the telestial will be ministered

unto by those of the terrestrial—that is, those of the higher glory

minister to those of a lesser glory. I can conceive of no reason for

all this administration of the higher to the lower, unless it be for

the purpose of advancing our Father’s children along the lines of

eternal progression. Whether or not in the great future, full of so

many possibilities now hidden from us, they of the lesser glories

after education and advancement within those spheres may at last

emerge from them and make their way to the higher degrees of glory

until at last they attain to the highest, is not revealed in the

revelations of God, and any statement made on the subject must partake

more or less of the nature of conjecture. But if it be granted that

such a thing is possible, they who at the first entered into the

celestial glory—having before them the privilege also of eternal

progress—have been moving onward, so that the relative distance

between them and those who have fought their way up from the lesser

glories may be as great when the latter have come into the degrees of

celestial glory in which the righteous at first stood, as it was at

the commencement. Thus: Those whose faith and works are such only as

to enable them to inherit a telestial glory, may arrive at last where

those whose works in this life were such as to enable them to entrance

into the celestial kingdom—they may arrive where these were, but never

where they are.”

B. H. Roberts, New Witnesses for God 1:391-392.

“There is never a time,” the Prophet Joseph Smith taught, “when the spirit is too old to approach God. All are within the reach of pardoning mercy, who have not committed the unpardonable sin.” 23

Boyd K. Packer, “The Brilliant Morning of Forgiveness,” Ensign, Nov. 1995, 18

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Book called the "Voice of Warning" where Apostle Parley P. Pratt talks about the vision of the City of Zion and who he saw sitting upon the chairs in the temple. Interesting to note, it was discussed that the city encompassed over 1000 square miles in size.

Currently Noah or Gabriel is resurrected.

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Hi, Tubaloth.

The last phase isn't really estate at all, its a reward for what we have done for the other two estates.

But, the second estate is a reward for keeping the first estate, and we still have to undergo a test here.

So, rewards and tests are clearly not mutually exclusive.

-----

Even more if we were able to progress in the final estate then their is no point in the first two estates is there?

By the same logic, if we are able to progress in the second estate, then there is no point in the first estate.

But, we did have a first estate, and there was a point to the first estate, and we can progress in the second estate, so I don't think your logic holds up.

Edited by Bluejay
Problem with codes
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Joseph Smith did not finished the complete cycle of when a person ends up in outer darkness and should not be taught at this time.

I don't understand the point you're trying to make?

My point was that some people who live on this earth WILL be cast into outer darkness, and outer darkness is eternal. Also, those who go to outer darkness will have to pay for their own sins.

Which of those things has not been revealed yet?

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