3 Degrees of Glory

[Vort]

Of course. If you "fail that course" so to speak.. that's time that you can never get back. You'll never catch the rest of the group if they're doing what they're supposed to be doing..

Your metaphor is faulty. Life is not a school in the same sense as high school, where you must pass classes X, Y, and Z, and two out of Q, R, S, and T, and either A or both B and C, in order to graduate.

Judging from our doctrine, it is obvious that people come in three general types: Those who will commit themselves absolutely to God and his truth, those who will commit themselves to God and his truth insofar as they can understand him and it, and those who don't particularly care to commit themselves to God or his truth at all. (A fourth group consists of those who will actively work against God and his truth when they think it behooves them.)

This life is the time to prepare to meet God, to find in ourselves what type of person we are. Now is the time for us to build within ourselves those traits that lead us to committing ourselves absolutely and without reservation to God, willing to do whatsoever thing he might ask of us, without any idea of holding anything back from him. If we fail to become that man or woman to the degree we must, then we are not the type of person who will wish to dwell with others of such a mind. Ten million years will not change our basic nature, which we are deciding today.

The idea of 'damnation' is repulsive to me.

Good. It should be. I am sure its repulsiveness is why it has been revealed to us as the final state of those who reject God.

Why have 'outer darkness' at all.. if the punishments of the lower kingdoms are equal?

Read D&C 88:24

"And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory."

It's not about "punishment".

It would be a shallow existence.. with no hope outside of death -- and immortal intelligences don't die frequently it would seem.

I'd much rather destruction and oblivion than living with the hope of 'something better'. I don't think I'm alone in that sentiment.

You're speaking of things far beyond your experience. In point of fact, you have no idea whether you would prefer "destruction and oblivion" to the alternative.

Besides, how do you destroy an eternal thing? I suspect that "damnation" is as close to eternal destruction as there can be.

[Vort]

Raw state of intelligence is inert mater...

This is not LDS doctrine. It is nowhere taught in scripture or, as far as I know, in the non-canonical teachings of Joseph Smith.

[pentecorman]

I don't think that we understand all that there is. We thought we had all of the mysteries answered but we don't. If the answers are not in the canon of scripture then we should be careful.

How do we live with God ETERNALLY? With our families we are sealed to ETERNALLY? Will God no longer reside on KOLOB with His family when He is on this Celestialized earth? Will all of us, who become a god, stay on this Celestialized Earth eternally? What about when all of our spirit children on one of our worlds we create become ressurected and ready to live forever with their God (one of us) then will they come to our Celestial earth or will we have to go to theirs, hence leave our eternal abode with our families and our God?

If God is willing to save those through works by proxy and make a way for salvation by giving His Son as a sacrifice, then as long as we speculate, we might as well err on the side of Gods LOVE and GRACE and MERCY.

Grace is getting what we don't deserve.

Mercy is not getting what we deserve to get.

Too many questions in this realm of thought.

My answer is that there is an opportunity for all to progress if they belong to a degree of GLORY. Otherwise, why would God waste His time with it. The whole idea IS Eternal Progression.

[bmy-]

Your metaphor is faulty. Life is not a school in the same sense as high school, where you must pass classes X, Y, and Z, and two out of Q, R, S, and T, and either A or both B and C, in order to graduate.

Says who? It seems that way to me.. there are specific ordinances (and other stuff, i'm certain) that must be experienced in order to 'graduate' (exaltation).

This life is the time to prepare to meet God, to find in ourselves what type of person we are. Now is the time for us to build within ourselves those traits that lead us to committing ourselves absolutely and without reservation to God, willing to do whatsoever thing he might ask of us, without any idea of holding anything back from him. If we fail to become that man or woman to the degree we must, then we are not the type of person who will wish to dwell with others of such a mind. Ten million years will not change our basic nature, which we are deciding today.

Explain why one cannot change their nature ten million years from today. Why can the decision not be made later instead of today? I see no difference.. I will still be who I am.. and you will be yourself also. We will not lose the ability to make that decision, I do not think. Whether or not making that decision will do any good whatsoever seems to be the subject of this thread (and I believe it will).

"And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory."

It's not about "punishment".

So if one cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom (and also the glory) on June 29th, 2009 ... who is to say that he will not be able to on June 29th, 2109? Even one million years later would work. Consider how far you have come in this short life.. and then consider what you could do in one million lifetimes .. which is barely a drip in the cosmological bucket.

You're speaking of things far beyond your experience. In point of fact, you have no idea whether you would prefer "destruction and oblivion" to the alternative.

Besides, how do you destroy an eternal thing? I suspect that "damnation" is as close to eternal destruction as there can be.

I have no idea because I have never experienced it.. but I have imagined the scenario. It's just like me saying that I would rather be dead than be in a vegetative state and asking my mother to please pull the plug if that were to happen. Isn't it?

I don't understand your thoughts about why have an outer darkness. This will be the place that Satan and all his angels will end up. As well as the sons of perdition. Why should they not be banned to an outer darkness instead of reaping some benefit from a lower kingdom?

This is the plan and the way Heavenly Father has set it up. Are you arguing the plan with Him?

It's the plan he has set up.. there's no changing that. It's not exactly set in stone doctrine though.. as we can see by the differing takes throughout the thread. My point is that if there is no progression after damnation.. what does it matter if you are in outer darkness or the telestial kingdom?

Celestial kingdom or bust, it looks like.. unless progression through kingdoms exists. Outer Darkness for those who have no chance at progression due to having commited the 'unpardonable sin'.

I cannot picture a scenario where a loving God would tell his child.. it does not matter how many times you try to climb this tree -- you'll never reach the top -- so you might as well stop trying. On the other hand.. I can picture a loving God telling his child (who had fallen from the tree).. to keep at it and you might make it to the top one day.

[Vort]

Says who? It seems that way to me.. there are specific ordinances (and other stuff, i'm certain) that must be experienced in order to 'graduate' (exaltation).

So the fact that there are necessary ordinances implies to you an open-ended time frame? I do not understand your reasoning.

Explain why one cannot change their nature ten million years from today. Why can the decision not be made later instead of today?

Because this life is the time to prepare to meet God.

I see no difference.. I will still be who I am.. and you will be yourself also. We will not lose the ability to make that decision, I do not think.

The scriptures and prophetic teachings seem not to agree with you.

So if one cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom (and also the glory) on June 29th, 2009 ... who is to say that he will not be able to on June 29th, 2109?

The Lord is to say, I assume. As we have been taught, this life is the time to prepare to meet God.

Even one million years later would work. Consider how far you have come in this short life.. and then consider what you could do in one million lifetimes .. which is barely a drip in the cosmological bucket.

The length of eternity is not at issue.

I have no idea because I have never experienced it.. but I have imagined the scenario. It's just like me saying that I would rather be dead than be in a vegetative state and asking my mother to please pull the plug if that were to happen. Isn't it?

No, it isn't. Your life had a beginning, and it will have an end. You will die, no matter what you may wish. But you are an eternal being. How do you "pull the plug" on an eternal being? What does that even mean?

I cannot picture a scenario where a loving God would tell his child.. it does not matter how many times you try to climb this tree -- you'll never reach the top -- so you might as well stop trying.

Your mental model is faulty, as I have already tried to explain. You seem to think that God is I Dream of Jeannie, who folds his arms and blinks his eyes and makes things pop into and out of existence, toying with his creations as if they were playthings. This is false.

God has made it perfectly clear that this life is the time to prepare to meet him. Why? Because that's reality. You may think that you have a better idea, that if only God would give us a few million years then surely we would be ready for exaltation at that time and everything would be A-OK and peachy keen. But you are not the author of the plan of salvation. The Father is. And the Father has made it clear:

This life is the time to prepare to meet God.

[bmy-]

So the fact that there are necessary ordinances implies to you an open-ended time frame? I do not understand your reasoning.

You stated that this life is not like school.. where you must meet certain requirements in order to move on. I used an example to show you that it can easily be looked at like school is.

Because this life is the time to prepare to meet God.

This life never began nor will it ever 'end'. There was a point where we recognized ourselves as conscious beings.. I suppose we could say that was the 'beginning'. If this life had no beginning or end.. why set a time frame? People learn (progress) at different rates.. this much at least is undeniable.

The scriptures and prophetic teachings seem not to agree with you.

Or perhaps.. we're simply waiting for a higher truth :) We might not be 'ready' for it yet. Much like polygamy?

The Lord is to say, I assume. As we have been taught, this life is the time to prepare to meet God.

This life has no beginning or end. In that sense.. our entire existence is to prepare ourselves to become adults, it has nothing to do with 'meeting God'. We're striving to achieve adulthood -- not to impress someone -- and some people bloom later than others. We adhere to certain standards because we have been told that it's the fastest path to exaltation.. to maturity. We adhere to those standards because there is a reward. If there was no reward.. no progression.. nothing in it for me -- why strive for something that yields no reward?

The length of eternity is not at issue.

I disagree.

No, it isn't. Your life had a beginning, and it will have an end. You will die, no matter what you may wish. But you are an eternal being. How do you "pull the plug" on an eternal being? What does that even mean?

It's not? There was a time where we were unconscious intelligences.. "pulling the plug" would put us into a similar state. What I call 'oblivion'. If there is no destruction.. and only the chance at life without progression.. I cannot imagine a more cruel system for those who fail. I believe God is loving and forgiving.. I don't think he ever runs out of 'second chances'. That's just me though. It just makes sense.

Your mental model is faulty, as I have already tried to explain. You seem to think that God is I Dream of Jeannie, who folds his arms and blinks his eyes and makes things pop into and out of existence, toying with his creations as if they were playthings. This is false.

Mental model seems sharp from this side. I think that God is much like we are.. and of course I think he's a bit like myself (don't we all? ) You're about as far off the mark as you could get.. I think God toys with his creations very little and that he doesn't remove his children from school because they failed the 6th grade.

God has made it perfectly clear that this life is the time to prepare to meet him. Why? Because that's reality. You may think that you have a better idea, that if only God would give us a few million years then surely we would be ready for exaltation at that time and everything would be A-OK and peachy keen. But you are not the author of the plan of salvation. The Father is. And the Father has made it clear

This life has no beginning or no end. That's reality. I simply think a better name for the plan of salvation.. is the plan of progression. I think it's alot like a race.. where you end determines where you start. Where you start determines what kind of advantage or disadvantage you're faced with.. and that largely impacts whether you win or lose.

Edited June 30, 2009 by bmy-

[Vort]

You stated that this life is not like school.. where you must meet certain requirements in order to move on. I used an example to show you that it can easily be looked at like school is.

Similarly, I can use an example to show that this life can easily be looked at like a ham sandwich. But that doesn't mean that it's profitable to use a ham sandwich as a model for the meaning or direction of life.

This life never began nor will it ever 'end'.

You are incorrect. This life began at mortal birth, or perhaps some time before that, and will end at mortal death.

If your desire is to know the truth that God has revealed, then misinterpreting "This life is the time to prepare to meet God" as meaning "You have all eternity to prepare to meet God" is not a useful way to find that revealed truth.

There was a point where we recognized ourselves as conscious beings.. I suppose we could say that was the 'beginning'.

At this point, you are inventing your own doctrine. You are free to do so, of course, but please don't mistake your philosophical meanderings for revealed LDS doctrine.

If this life had no beginning or end.. why set a time frame?

If pigs had wings, would we pick buckshot out of our bacon?

Answer: Pigs don't have wings.

People learn (progress) at different rates.. this much at least is undeniable.

It's also irrelevant. Progression, per se, is not the ultimate purpose of this life. Preparation to meet God is. Progression is useful only insofar as it prepares us to meet God.

Or perhaps.. we're simply waiting for a higher truth :) We might not be 'ready' for it yet. Much like polygamy?

So do you likewise brush off any other doctrine that doesn't agree with your personal philosophy by saying, "Well, we probably just don't know the higher truth yet"?

Again, this is not a reliable way to learn revealed truth.

This life has no beginning or end.

Again, you are mistaken. This life has a beginning (birth, or perhaps before) and an end (death).

In that sense.. our entire existence is to prepare ourselves to become adults, it has nothing to do with 'meeting God'.

So are you more inspired than the prophets who have taught that our existence here is indeed to prepare ourselves to meet God?

Why ought I, or anyone else (including you -- you're just as valuable a soul as we are), believe your philosophical ideas when we have revealed truth telling us the way to God?

We're striving to achieve adulthood -- not to impress someone -- and some people bloom later than others.

No. We are striving to return to our Father.

We adhere to certain standards because we have been told that it's the fastest path to exaltation.. to maturity.

Please indicate to me any scripture or prophetic utterance that teaches that the elements of the plan of salvation are the fastest, as opposed to the only, path to exaltation.

This is false doctrine. You would be wise to stay well away from it.

There was a time where we were unconscious intelligences..

This is your own private doctrine.

I believe God is loving and forgiving.. I don't think he ever runs out of 'second chances'. That's just me though. It just makes sense.

Sure, it makes perfect sense -- as long as you think God is I Dream of Jeannie, folding his arms and blinking and making things appear out of nothing. But if you believe in eternal existence and a God of law as the prophets have revealed him, then your whole idea of "second chances" is shown to be irrelevant and beside the point.

I think God toys with his creations very little and that he doesn't remove his children from school because they failed the 6th grade.

Do you believe that God gives people what they truly want?

What if people show that they truly want something less than all he has to give?

This life has no beginning or no end. That's reality.

No. That is your personal idea, and it is wrong.

I simply think a better name for the plan of salvation.. is the plan of progression.

I think your renaming of the Father's plan into one you like better is a dangerous indication of where you are headed with this thread of conversation.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Vort
Trying to be a bit less condemnatory and a bit more polite

[bmy-]

Similarly, I can use an example to show that this life can easily be looked at like a ham sandwich. But that doesn't mean that it's profitable to use a ham sandwich as a model for the meaning or direction of life.

If by the ham sandwich example you mean that.. it's not a ham sandwich unless it meets certain requirements like bread and ham.. then yeah -- that works.

You are incorrect. This life began at mortal birth, or perhaps some time before that, and will end at mortal death.

We are co-eternal with God. Did he have a beginning?

If your desire is to know the truth that God has revealed, then misinterpreting "This life is the time to prepare to meet God" as meaning "You have all eternity to prepare to meet God" is not a useful way to find that revealed truth.

We have already met God. We sat at his feet in the pre-existence and learned from him. He sent us out into the world (to school) so that we could learn, grow, and progress..

At this point, you are inventing your own doctrine. You are free to do so, of course, but please don't mistake your philosophical meanderings for revealed LDS doctrine.

It's not doctrine at all.. it's reality. There is a point in time where we realized that we are conscious -- there must be one -- because I cannot recollect a time where I did not exist. Can you?

It's also irrelevant. Progression, per se, is not the ultimate purpose of this life. Preparation to meet God is. Progression is useful only insofar as it prepares us to meet God.

Again.. if progression is not the ultimate goal -- who did God prepare to meet? You see.. my idea answers this question, yours does not. Yours requires a previous event.. mine does not.

Am I saying that progression is possible without God? You betcha. (At the very least that it was possible. We could have entered into a new era where that has changed)

So do you likewise brush off any other doctrine that doesn't agree with your personal philosophy by saying, "Well, we probably just don't know the higher truth yet"?

Again, this is not a reliable way to learn revealed truth.

We do not know the higher truths yet. That also is undeniable. Our progression does not end in the Celestial Kingdom by any means.. there is much more that comes after that.

Again, you are mistaken. This life has a beginning (birth, or perhaps before) and an end (death).

No, you are the mistaken one.. if our doctrine is correct then we are co-eternal with God. This life had no beginning and it shall have no end. Mind boggling as that is..

So are you more inspired than the prophets who have taught that our existence here is indeed to prepare ourselves to meet God?

Why ought I, or anyone else (including you -- you're just as valuable a soul as we are), believe your philosophical ideas when we have revealed truth telling us the way to God?

We have already met God. We're preparing ourselves for exaltation.

No. We are striving to return to our Father.

And the goal is exaltation.

Please indicate to me any scripture or prophetic utterance that teaches that the elements of the plan of salvation are the fastest, as opposed to the only, path to exaltation.

This is false doctrine. You would be wise to stay well away from it.

For example: Part of the plan of salvation outlines that what we learn here goes with us beyond mortality. The more you learn here.. the better off you will be then. The more you learn here.. the less you learn there, the faster your 'exaltation'. Exaltation is not just the press of a button.

Besides -- I said 'standards' -- as in dress codes, etc.

No. That is your personal idea, and it is wrong.

That is your personal idea, and it is wrong.

I think your renaming of the Father's plan into one you like better is a dangerous indication of where you are headed with this thread of conversation.

Progression leads to exaltation.. which is both our goal and Heavenly Fathers goal for us.

Edited June 30, 2009 by bmy-

[pam]

It's not doctrine at all.. it's reality. There is a point in time where we realized that we are conscious -- there must be one -- because I cannot recollect a time where I did not exist. Can you?

Ahhhh but yet we know that we existed before we came to earth. Why can't I recollect my life before being born. It's call....drum roll...veil. Now if you can recollect existing before your mortal existence...then I applaud you. I don't think it's a matter of realizing we are conscious..I think it's part of Heavenly Father's plan that we would NOT remember our pre earth life.

Edited June 30, 2009 by pam

[pam]

God has made it perfectly clear that this life is the time to prepare to meet him.

Why? Because that's reality. You may think that you have a better idea, that if only God would give us a few million years then surely we would be ready for exaltation at that time and everything would be A-OK and peachy keen. But you are not the author of the plan of salvation. The Father is. And the Father has made it clear:

This life is the time to prepare to meet God.

Amen Vort.

[bmy-]

Ahhhh but yet we know that we existed before we came to earth. Why can't I recollect my life before being born. It's call....drum roll...veil. Now if you can recollect existing before your mortal existence...then I applaud you. I don't think it's a matter of realizing we are conscious..I think it's part of Heavenly Father's plan that we would NOT remember our pre earth life.

I understand that. So you believe that once we die.. we'll remember eternity? Think back to your infant years.. can you remember them? You shouldn't be able to (i'm sure there are exceptions).

Why is that? You were alive yet not capable of recognizing that you were alive. I suppose a definition of conscious is in order.. I should have defined it long ago. It's simply.. being aware that you are aware. It probably fits better under 'sentience' but for the sake of discussion we'll roll with consciousness.

I have already said that we had no beginning (which is completely in line with doctrine).. I said that we could consider the moment we are aware of our awareness as our "beginning".

[pam]

Yeh I kind of think we will remember eternity. We will no longer have the veil that shields our memory. Just my opinion though. Not gospel.

[Misshalfway]

I think the veil will be lifted. I think we will be able to see our former pre-earth life. Or maybe that vision will be given to each person in degrees according to the preparations of each individual heart. I don't know.

I guess I see the veil as a necessary component of earth life. Will there be a need for it after death? Or is it the spirit that removes the veil for each individual person? Hmmmmmm

[pam]

I don't think we will need the veil. The only reason we have it now is so we can learn and progress while on earth to return to our Heavenly Father. If we could remember our pre earth life...what would be the purpose of coming to earth to be tested? Of going through life's challenges and tests. Of learning?

[Dravin]

No, you are the mistaken one.. if our doctrine is correct then we are co-eternal with God. This life had no beginning and it shall have no end. Mind boggling as that is..

This life is a reference to our mortal existence which does indeed have a beginning and an end. Looks like you and Vort are using different definitions.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Dravin

[pam]

I think that is the point that Vort kept trying to make.

[Vort]

I think that is the point that Vort kept trying to make.

You're right, Pam, but I'm not trying to make it any more. Such things are apparent only to those with eyes to see and ears to hear. When any person starts rewriting scripture to suit his own tastes and prejudices -- something that most of us have done to a greater or lesser degree at some time, I expect -- that person loses the ability to understand the truths of God and to see what's there to be seen. I might win the wordgame of logical argumentation, but it would be a hollow, meaningless win, and I have no desire to engage in such a contest.

[bmy-]

You're right, Pam, but I'm not trying to make it any more. Such things are apparent only to those with eyes to see and ears to hear. When any person starts rewriting scripture to suit his own tastes and prejudices -- something that most of us have done to a greater or lesser degree at some time, I expect -- that person loses the ability to understand the truths of God and to see what's there to be seen. I might win the wordgame of logical argumentation, but it would be a hollow, meaningless win, and I have no desire to engage in such a contest.

You see.. there's so much more than doctrine. If you think our scriptures contain everything we will need to know in the future.. that's silly. It simply contains what we need now. I speak for myself and myself alone.. when I say that progression through kingdoms is possible. That's it. Nothing more. We're all free to agree or disagree..

Shades of gray my friends.. shades of gray. I try to stay away from absolutes as often as possible.

Yeh I kind of think we will remember eternity. We will no longer have the veil that shields our memory. Just my opinion though. Not gospel.

Eternity.. is a funny thing. You can't place a number of years on it. Remembering eternity.. is well.. alot like holding an infinite amount of anything in your hands. Can it be done? That's just my take though.. I think that's why they call it an eternity.

Edited July 1, 2009 by bmy-

[livy111us]

While there are some previous leaders of the Church who believed this, there are MANY more who taught against it. But the scriptures are the only canonized information we have on the subject and should be taken as the authority on the issue. The scriptures leave NO room for progression between kingdoms. Here are some quotes from past leaders and scriptures to show just that:

There are some people who have supposed that if we are quickened telestial bodies that eventually, throughout the ages of eternity, we will continue to progress until we will find our place in the celestial kingdom, but the Scriptures and revelations of God have said that those who are quickened telestial bodies cannot come where God and Christ dwell, worlds without end. -George Albert Smith, Conference Reports, p. 172, October, 1945

"Those whose lives have entitled them to terrestrial glory," he maintained, "can never gain celestial glory. One who gains possession of the lowest degree of the telestial glory may ultimately arise to the highest degree of that glory, but no provision has been made for promotion from one glory to another" ("Three Degrees of Glory," discourse delivered in the Ogden Tabernacle, 22 September 1922). Elder Ballard's feelings were later shared and echoed by Elders Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce R. McConkie. "It has been asked if it is possible for one who inherits the telestial glory to advance in time to the celestial glory?" Elder Smith posited. "The answer to this question," he continued, "is, No!" (Doctrines of Salvation II:31, emphasis in original). Elder McConkie forcefully remarked, "There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal world. Or if not that, lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were. This is worse than false. It is an evil and pernicious doctrine" ("Seven Deadly Heresies", 1 June 1980, unedited).

(Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, Pg.243-244) "Exaltation in the celestial kingdom will be granted to those only who enter and faithfully observe the covenant of celestial marriage. Christ says in unmistakable terms: In the celestial glory there are three heavens, or degrees;And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]; And if he does not, he cannot obtain it. He may enter into the other but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase (D&C 131:1-4. Italics added.) He cannot have an increase! He cannot have exaltation! That means worlds without end. After a person has been assigned to his place in the kingdom, either in the telestial, the terrestrial or the celestial, or to his exaltation, he will never advance from his assigned glory to another glory. That is eternal! That is why we must make our decisions early in life and why it is imperative that such decisions be right."

"They shall go away into everlasting punishment which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment." They are "the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power" after the resurrection; they are the only ones who shall not be "redeemed" from spiritual death "in the due time of the Lord, [and] after the sufferings of his wrath." (D&C 76:37-44.) As Alma expressed it: "They shall be as though there had been no redemption made; for they cannot be redeemed according to God's justice; and they cannot die seeing there is no more corruption." (Alma 12:18.) There are three kingdoms of glory in which resurrected men will be saved: the celestial, the terrestrial, and the telestial. "In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees." The highest of these is reserved for those who gain eternal life. All others are damned in the sense that their progress is limited. There are restrictions placed upon them; they have reached the "end of [their] kingdom"; they "cannot have an increase." (D&C 131:1, 4.)

Alma 34:33

I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

D&C 76: 12 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.

D&C 131: 4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.

2 Ne. 9:27 But wo unto him that has the law given, yea, that has all the commandments of God, like unto us, and that transgresseth them, and that wasteth the days of his probation, for awful is his state!

...remember [they're] awful guilt in perfectness, and be constrained to exclaim: Holy, holy are thy judgments, O Lord God Almighty—but I know my guilt; I transgressed thy law, and my transgressions are mine; and the devil hath obtained me, that I am a prey to his awful misery.... (2 Nephi 9:46).

3 Ne. 28:34 And wo be unto him that will not hearken unto the words of Jesus, and also to them whom he hath chosen and sent among them; for whoso receivith not the words of Jesus and the words of those whom he hath sent receiveth not him; and therefore he will not receive them at the last day;

Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God

But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;...And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end. (D/C 76:109-112)

Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory. For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever. (D/C 132:16-17)

But behold, your days of probation are past; ye have procrastinated the day of your salvation until it is everlastingly too late, and your destruction is made sure; yea, for ye have sought all the days of your lives for that which ye could not obtain; and ye have sought for happiness in doing iniquity, which thing is contrary to the nature of that righteousness which is in our great and Eternal Head. (Hel. 13: 38)

William Clayton Report WOJS pg. 359-361

The contention in heaven was Jesus said there were certain man would not be saved the devil said he could save them. he rebelled against God and was thrust down.

Spencer W. Kimball taught "[There is no] progression between kingdoms. After a person has been assigned to his place in the kingdom, either in the telestial, the terrestrial, or the celestial, or to his exaltation, he will never advance from his assigned glory to another glory. That is eternal! That is why we must make our decisions early in life and why it is imperative that such decisions be right." (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p.50)

In the final judgment, all the earth children of the Lord will be assigned places in one or the

other of the three grand divisions or degrees of salvation, known to us from modern revelation as

the three glories. Each assignment will depend upon the use the candidate has made of the

opportunities placed before him on earth and elsewhere. "For they shall be judged according to

their works" (D. & C. 76: 111). By his own acts each person has shown his fitness to participate

in the activities of this or that glory. It would be useless to place him higher than his capabilities

would permit, and unfair to place him lower. If placed too high, he would not be competent or

happy there, nor could he be content if placed too low. The degree of salvation of necessity

corresponds, under the merciful justice of the Lord, with the demonstrated worthiness, capacity,

and capability of each individual. The final judgment is individual.

Within each glory, however, there may be advancement. The law of progress may be utilized by

every intelligence in the universe. Those who inherit the telestial, terrestrial, or celestial glories

may progress, and progress eternally. But, let it ever be remembered that the power to progress is

greatest in the celestial glory, and is decreasingly smaller in the lower glories. There can be no

talk, therefore, of those in the lower places overtaking those in the higher, any more than an

automobile traveling at the rate of twenty-five miles an hour can overtake one moving at the rate

of fifty miles an hour.

They who inherit the celestial glory will dwell in the presence of the Father and the Son. They

are kings and priests. From that glory issues the power of God, known to us as the Priesthood of

the Lord. In that glory certain conditions of joy belong which are absent in the other glories.

They who have inherited the lesser glories will receive a salvation so glorious as to be beyond

the understanding of man -- that has been revealed to us -- but, "where God and Christ dwell they

can not come worlds without end" (D. & C. 76: 112). (John A. Widstoe, Evidences and

Reconciliations, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1960, p. 204.)

We do not believe in deathbed repentance, or the second chance theory, why would we believe this?

Does that also mean that the 1/3 of the spirits who were cast out will also receive the chance to get bodies and make it to the Celestial kingdom?

Deliverance from hell is not admittance to heaven” (James E. Talmage, The Vitality of Mormonism, 255–56).

[bmy-]

Within each glory, however, there may be advancement. The law of progress may be utilized by

every intelligence in the universe. Those who inherit the telestial, terrestrial, or celestial glories

may progress, and progress eternally. But, let it ever be remembered that the power to progress is

greatest in the celestial glory, and is decreasingly smaller in the lower glories. There can be no

talk, therefore, of those in the lower places overtaking those in the higher, any more than an

automobile traveling at the rate of twenty-five miles an hour can overtake one moving at the rate

of fifty miles an hour.

I have no problem with this. I mentioned it earlier in the thread. They'll never be able to overtake the people who got the headstart (provided that they do not lose their glory). They'll always be behind. People (including those with authority) seem firm in their belief that there is no progression between kingdoms -- but they also seem confident that there is eternal progression regardless of kingdom.

Does that mean the kingdom grows as they grow? Or is there a point.. where eternal progression stops? I do not believe that time will ever come. God is still learning, progressing, and growing.. and he seems to be pretty high up the ladder of exaltation.

[Hemidakota]

Can I correct something here? Give me a second to explain that GOD is given complete knowledge of HIS sphere and there is no growth within this. HIS growth is the glory and experience of worlds glorified and children who can abide with HIM into the eternities. Though, I do believe the Celestial Kingdom is not the end all state since we still need to reach the individual who created HIM. Who knows what is behind HIS creator and so forth. Long as there is man, there is someone behind them. The key in answer this question is the titled used for any given Savior.

[livy111us]

Not sure what I did, see the next post

Edited July 1, 2009 by livy111us

[livy111us]

I have no problem with this. I mentioned it earlier in the thread. They'll never be able to overtake the people who got the headstart (provided that they do not lose their glory). They'll always be behind. People (including those with authority) seem firm in their belief that there is no progression between kingdoms -- but they also seem confident that there is eternal progression regardless of kingdom.

Does that mean the kingdom grows as they grow? Or is there a point.. where eternal progression stops? I do not believe that time will ever come. God is still learning, progressing, and growing.. and he seems to be pretty high up the ladder of exaltation.

While we don't know exactly how they will progress (it does not mean that they will move from the permanent resurrected telestial body given them, and somehow change it to a terrestial body), I do believe that they can grow in certain ways, but that does not mean they can progress in glory. Since they will be serving others, they will increase in love, righteous desires, service, etc...

I strongly disagree with your statement that God is still learning. If God is perfect and Omniscient, how could He learn more? Just to fit into what some consider to be eternal progression? To progress is a broad term and does not necessarily mean in knowledge. I've got an excellent quote that I can't find right now, but have several others from modern Prophets and Apostles explaining how God progresses:

Neal A. Maxwell, All These Things Shall Give Thee Experience, p.14

Unfortunately, the omniscience of God in the minds of some well-meaning Latter-day Saints has been qualified by the concept of "eternal progression." Some have wrongly assumed God's progress is related to His acquisition of additional knowledge. In fact, God's "eternal progression" (if one is nevertheless determined to apply these two words to God) is related to the successful execution, again and again, of His plan of salvation to redeem billions of His children throughout His many creations.

Neal A. Maxwell, All These Things Shall Give Thee Experience, p.14

President Joseph Fielding Smith observed that God's progression "is in building worlds and bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man, . . . not his intelligence or knowledge, or virtue, or wisdom, or love, for these things are, as the scriptures teach, in a state of perfection." (Church History and Modern Revelation, 1947, 1:169.) (Elder Joseph Fielding Smith observed that God’s progression “is....not his intelligence or knowledge, or virtue, or wisdom,…”

Neal A. Maxwell, All These Things Shall Give Thee Experience, p.12 - p.13

It is unfortunate that our concerns do not center more upon the correctness of what we do in a given moment—and less upon whether or not God's having foreseen what we would do then somehow compromises our agency. It is equally regrettable that our souls should be troubled at all because we cannot figure out "how" God does it, when it has been made so abundantly clear and on so many occasions that He does do it. In any event, this great reality of omniscience will happily operate even if it is for us an unexplained reality!

Neal A. Maxwell, All These Things Shall Give Thee Experience, p.18

One might multiply examples of this foreknowledge which grows out of God's omniscience, end upon end. Suffice it to say; we are safe in knowing that one of the perfected attributes of our Father in heaven is knowledge. No wonder the Prophet Joseph taught that if men do not comprehend the character of God, they do not comprehend themselves.

Neal A. Maxwell, All These Things Shall Give Thee Experience, p.20

Some find the doctrines of the omniscience and foreknowledge of God troubling because these seem, in some way, to constrict their individual agency. This concern springs out of a failure to distinguish between how it is that God knows with perfection what is to come but that we do not know, thus letting a very clear and simple doctrine get obscured by our own finite view of things. Personality patterns, habits, strengths, and weaknesses observed by God over a long period in the premortal world would give God a perfect understanding of what we would do under a given set of circumstances—especially when He knows the circumstances to come. Just because we cannot compute all the variables, just because we cannot extrapolate does not mean that He cannot do so. Omniscience is, of course, one of the essences of Godhood; it sets Him apart in such an awesome way from all of us even though, on a smaller scale, we manage to do a little foreseeing ourselves at times with our own children even with our rather finite and imperfect minds.

Joseph Fielding Smith, Church History and Modern Revelation, Vol 1, p.156

The Lord has stated that his progression is in building worlds and bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man, and this goes on for ever thus increasing his power, dominion and glory, but not his intelligence or knowledge, or virtue, or wisdom, or love, for these things are, as the scriptures teach, in a state of perfection. {Joseph Fielding Smith wrote, “that the Lords progression is not in his intelligence or knowledge”, in the Church History and Modern Revelation

Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, Eternal Progression.

“It should be realized that God is not progressing in knowledge, truth, virtue, wisdom, or any of the attributes of godliness. He has already gained these things in their fullness. But he is progressing in the sense that his creations increase, his dominions expand, his spirit offspring multiply, and more kingdoms are added to his domains.”

[livy111us]

Dang it, I keep making it worse

[Hemidakota]

You added references to something that I corrected and hopefully, we all can learn from these types of threads. I do!!