3 Degrees of Glory


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Bruce R. is not the church, and he is not an expert on Christ's church. Where are his references from the scripture? He has edited his own "Mormon Doctrine" and made some serious errors in his faulty doctrine(ie Blacks and the Priesthood). This is because he bases his words on what other people say in sources like Journal of Discourses.

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There are no scriptural references for God progressing in knowledge . If He is ALL KNOWING then what??? I am sorry to say that we need to stop placing our earthly limitations on an AWESOME GOD!

This is exactly what Brigham mentioned in response to the statements by BRM.

I am also curious where the scriptural references are for God progressing in knowledge are.

What is your definition of progression? I'll give you a basic example.. say God is only progressing (like BMR says..) by glory being added to his own through his children. Does God know what it is like to have more glory? Or does he learn what that experience is like.. by experiencing it?

You see.. He does learn.

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I would like to become a part of this discussion. I have studied this question for years and I feel at peace with what I have found. First I want to say that I find reading anything but the scriptures has brought more confusion and difficulty to my study than just focusing on what is in the Standard Works. Commentaries swing both directions. I am bolstered by comment of others in favor of what I believe, I guess because it gives me confidence that I am not alone in my thoughts -- but that is about it.

I believe in the doctrine of eternal progression within and between kingdoms. Why do I believe it?

1. The testimony of the scriptures, in particular modern day revelation.

2. My own personal experience as a father and husband. (It is relevant to note that before becoming a husband and father 10 years ago, I was a staunch supporter of the no progression between kingdoms doctrine -- granted, I also relied much heavier on commentary than on the scriptures.)

3. Personal spiritual witness.

I hope that the insights I have to share will help those in this post on both sides of the argument. I firmly believe that God supports our freedom to believe what we sincerely desire to believe (correct or incorrect). Not everyone is looking at eternity through the same frame of reference (infact, nobdoy is) and I am thankful that God is merciful in bringing us all along at our own pace.

The first scripture I would put forth is Moses 1:39: "For behold, this is my work and my glory -- to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." I suggest it is time that we begin to take this scripture at face value for exactly what it says. God's entire focus centers around 'bringing to pass the immortality AND eternal life of man'.

I believe we should see the cannon of scripture as fulfilling this mission statement rather than defeating it. I have read so many commentaries where long explanations are given regarding this scripture that eventually explain its 'face value' meaning completely away.

I don't believe that God is an unsuccessful parent, or a successful parent only by luck. He is working a plan that will eventually 'bring to pass the immortality and eternal life' of the vast, vast, vast majority of his children.

more to come....please keep the commentary going. I have added a number of insights to my own thinking because of this forum. Thanks everyone.

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I am enthralled by Section 138 of the D&C....consider the following:

Christ did not visit the following personally: "But unto the wicked he did not go, and among the ungodly and the unrepentant who had defiled themselves while in the flesh, his voice was not raised; Neither did the rebellious who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets behold his presence, not look upon his face. Where these were, darkness reigned, but among the righteous there was peace;" (D&C 138:20-22).

Rather he chose messengers who "went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel." (D&C 138:31).

Who did they preach to? "Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets." (D&C 138:32). That is pretty much everyone. Both those who died knowing they had sinned and those who died ignorant of their sins.

What where they taught? "These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, And all other principles of the gospel necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." (D&C 138:33-34).

It further states, "the message of redemption [was carried] unto all the dead, unto whom he could not go personally, because of their rebellion and transgression." (D&C 138:37).

Again, it is clear that the gospel is being preached without prejudice among the wicked, both those who rebelled against the prophets and those who never knew them.

Now, the most interesting part...

"The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God, And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation." (D&C 138:58-59)

Consider the principles that are connected in those two verses.

1. Those who repent in the spirit world (regardless of what they did in mortality, since previously it made clear that all were given this opportunity) will be redeemed through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God.

2. What are the ordinances of the house of God? TEMPLE ORDINANCES.

3. Those who accept the gospel and receive their ordinances may have been suffering in hell and will have paid a portion at least of the penalty associated with their mortal experience.

4. They will be washed clean -- through the blood of Christ -- a gift of baptism and the reception of the Holy Ghost. -- Remember who this is being applied to...even the rebellious who rejected the prophets in life.

5. Then they receive a reward according to their works --

This opens up numerous possibilities. ---what possibilities does it foreshadow?

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Talking about added revelation of D&C 138 - Elder Boyd K. Packer, in speaking to a group of Church educators, remarked: "We live in a day of great events relating to the scriptures. It has been only a short time since two revelations were added to the standard works." Then, after making brief reference to what are now sections 137 and 138 of the Doctrine and Covenants, he continued: "I was surprised, and I think all of the Brethren were surprised, at how casually that announcement of two additions to the standard works was received by the Church. But we will live to sense the significance of it; we will tell our grandchildren and our great-grandchildren, and we will record in our diaries, that we were on the earth and remember when that took place." ["Teach the Scriptures," in Charge to Religious Educators, 2nd ed. (Salt Lake City: Church Educational System, 1982), p. 21; this is the text of a talk delivered to CES personnel 14 October 1977, Salt Lake City.]

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While searching out further clarity to the listed versus, something I learned from Robert Millet concerning the women teaching women in the spirit world...

Through the influence of the Holy Ghost President Joseph F. Smith perceived the identity of many of the noble and great from the beginning of time, including Adam, Seth, Noah, Abraham, Isaiah, the Nephite prophets before Christ, and many more he encountered in his vision. President Smith also recognized Mother Eve and many of her faithful daughters from the beginning to his current time. President Smith had taught a number of years earlier that women minister to women in the spirit world, even as they do in holy places on earth. See Joseph F. Smith, Young Women's Journal 23 (1911): pp. 128-32; Gospel Doctrine (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1971), p. 461.

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Hey, Tom, How are you?

Whew, what a long post, many postings! :-)

Sorry everyone, I didn't read all the posts. Tom, I'm directing what little bit I know to answer your question.

My mom once told me that all of us will eventually be caused to stop "sinning" in the eternities. I'm also reminded of the verse, "every knee shall bow and tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ." I also think of the verse in the Doctrine and Covenants that for every soul there is a kingdom of glory.

As I was reading through these posts, my impression is that, maybe the difference between the three kingdoms isn't whether or not we will continue to grow and progress; but, perhaps more so, how much responsibility/callings we will be allowed throughout eternity. I think it is pretty well established that only in the celestial kingdom will one be joined in marriage to procreate "worlds without number." Certainly those exalted in the celestial kingdom will have far more responsibility and independence in the eternities than those of the lower kingdoms who will be far more dependent on Father's jurisdiction/kingdom.

Just my thoughts.

Dove

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I am curious as to why some has such a difficult time considering progression between kingdoms? I remember when I first gave place for this concept in my heart...my honest first impressions was, "well, that's not fair...they don't deserve that...that can't be right." Wow! I think my response revealed as much about me as an individual as it did about my lack of understanding of gospel principles. I immediately latched on to what BRM said in deadly heresies and I fought it tooth and nail. Then, like I said, my life changed...I got married, had kids and began to discover for myself what the title "Father" really means. At that point, I took a serious step back and approached the topic from a scriptural perspective (versus a commentary perspective)....I was surprised what I found.

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[D&C 138] If Joseph F. Smith was given the vision between the three different kingdom, do you not think he would of said something about this?

I am not sure I understand what you are saying? Very little commentary was ever given on this section. I am just reading it for what it says...it is fulfillment of the 9th article of faith. We started with the Bible, we added the Book of Mormon and then we added the sections of the D&C one at a time until 138. Each builds on the other and gives further light and knowledge.

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What will bring down the end of the millennium people beside pride?

The reason I brought this up, those living in the millennium will have the opportunity to be with those who were either cast out or those who will be ministering to this world. This will be done openly where there is no veil between spirit and those of the flesh [mortal]. In the end, I have indicated as those who gone before me, pride will cause problem among the children at the last days of this wonderful era but what will cause the division between the living? Think about the argument here, which has been ensuing now over the progression and those who will be casted into the dark abyss. Some here think that when being casted out, they should be given the opportunity to progress to the lowest order or perhaps in the end - the Celestial Kingdom -.

What will living say then for those who claimed they can change their ways and should be given the opportunity again to repent? Think about those who side with the minions of Lucifer openly, with the excuse - why not -. Why can these brethren be given the opportunity?....be given another chance....then comes the truth of who should of been chosen in the first plan given by the FATHER...many will fall for this and this will cause a great division between the living. Then comes the FATHER's henchmen, to remove those who opposed the FATHER and the Son. ;)

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I am not sure I understand what you are saying? Very little commentary was ever given on this section. I am just reading it for what it says...it is fulfillment of the 9th article of faith. We started with the Bible, we added the Book of Mormon and then we added the sections of the D&C one at a time until 138. Each builds on the other and gives further light and knowledge.

A great book and authors who spent the time in researching background on every D&C section was L.G. Otten and C.M. Caldwell. They written a book called 'Sacred Truths of the Doctrine and Covenants'. Each section has a background to why this was received as revelation, location, what caused it, and by whom.

To help you, let me add some background to what happen -

Historical Setting

This is a section that contains its own historical setting as recorded in the first eleven verses. It is interesting to note that this vision was given the day before the convening of the semi-annual conference of the church and approximately six weeks before the death of President Joseph F. Smith.

Sacred Truths

Introduction

President Joseph F. Smith informed us that this vision came while he was pondering. (see D&C 138:1-11) Pondering, or meditating upon the things of God, opens doors to understanding. The mind and spirit are prepared to receive the promptings and guidance that emanates from the Holy Spirit. The importance of pondering and the reward thereof has been taught by President Marion G. Romney as follows:

As I have read the scriptures I have been challenged by the word ponder, so frequently used in the Book of Mormon. The dictionary says that ponder means "to weigh mentally, think deeply about, deliberate, meditate." Moroni thus used the term as he closed his record:

"Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things . . . that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men . . . and ponder it in your hearts." (Moro. 10:3. Italics added.)

Jesus said to the Nephites:

"I perceive that ye are weak that ye cannot understand all my words. . . .

"Therefore, go ye unto your homes, and ponder upon the things which I have said, and ask of the Father, in my name that ye may understand. . . ." (3 Ne. 17:2-3. Italics added.)

Pondering is, in my feeling, a form of prayer. It has at least been an approach to the Spirit of the Lord on many occasions. Nephi tells us of one such occasion;

"For it came to pass," he wrote, "after I had desired to know the things that my father had seen and believing that the Lord was able to make them known unto me, as I sat pondering in mine heart I was caught away in the Spirit of the Lord, yea, into an exceeding high mountain. . . ." (1 Ne. 11:1. Italics added.)

Then follows Nephi's account of the great vision he was given by the Spirit of the Lord because he believed the words of his prophet father and had such a great desire to know more that he pondered and prayed about them.

President Joseph F. Smith tells us that "on the third of October, in the year nineteen hundred and eighteen, I sat in my room pondering over the Scriptures. . . ." He had particular reference at this time to Peter's statement that Christ "went and preached unto the spirits in prison" (1 Pet. 3:19) while his body lay in the grave.

"As I pondered over these things which are written," President Smith continued, "the eyes of my understanding were opened and the Spirit of the Lord rested upon me, and I saw the hosts of the dead, both small and great. . . ." He then gives us an account of his great vision concerning missionary work among the spirits of the dead. (Gospel Doctrine [Deseret Book Co. 1939], p. 472. Italics added.) (CR April 1973, pp. 117-118)

In this vision (Section 138), President Joseph F. Smith saw three groups of people in the spirit world. We will discuss the following:

1. The righteous in the spirit world from Adam to Christ.

2. The wicked in the spirit world from Adam to Christ.

3. The people in the spirit world from this dispensation.

4. The Righteous in the Spirit World from Adam to Christ

From this vision, there are several things to be learned about the condition and experience of the righteous spirits when the Savior visited the spirit world.
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A great book and authors who spent the time in researching background on every D&C section was L.G. Otten and C.M. Caldwell. They written a book called 'Sacred Truths of the Doctrine and Covenants'. Each section has a background to why this was received as revelation, location, what caused it, and by whom.

I believe commentaries have a place. However; they rarely will expand on doctrine beyond something already said by someone else. We have so many commentaries in the church that one commentator rehashes another who in turn rehashes them, etc.

More often than not, the commentaries are nothing more than a restating of the obvious and then they ignore the more difficult passages and ideas.

What is even more frustrating is when a widely disseminated commentary completely ignores what the scripture actually says and instead interprets it in the light of 'current understanding'!

One interesting example of this is D&C 107. For how many years did we try to 'organize' the church according to 'business principles' of management and structure. Now, I don't know if that was the goal; but, when President Hinckley announced that we would be returning to the structure already laid out in revelation! What an awesome day. The brother actually commissioned a committee, headed by Elder Packard, to study the efficiency of the hierarchy and his recommendation was that we do what the revelation says! Thus, the 70 have been organized in their proper place as the Lord revealed to Joseph and all the extra non-canonical callings and organizations were dropped.

At any rate, as it applies to this topic, I believe that D&C 138 is key to understanding this topic -- our latest sectional addition to the D&C. Yet, it is rarely quoted or discussed in forums such as this on this topic.

So what do you think?

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Hmm...the only portion I do like with this book is the addition of background of each section but I can see what you are referring too. It goes no further than what others had said already. As I don't see why more portions of the D&C were not added in our day. Noting a previous finding of old revelations from Joseph Smith era and a few prophets held in there private possession. I do believe it numbers over 20 plus, were not added for one reason or another.

I think it goes back to those who refuse to step outside of the box when we live in an exciting time of further revelation, expansion truth and global knowledge, and now possess the electronic ability to compare huge amounts of data on a mere word search.

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I think it goes back to those who refuse to step outside of the box when we live in an exciting time of further revelation, expansion truth and global knowledge, and now possess the electronic ability to compare huge amounts of data on a mere word search.

Very good! Can you imagine what BRM would do with the technology we have now? Imagine, he wrote Mormon Doctrine from binders of notes he took over the years studying the standard works! Instead of looking ahead, we spend so much time looking back. Instead of listening to the living spirit, we look to men long dead. This is the true and LIVING church. Living because it is quickened by God's Holy Spirit. When we lean on commentaries, we run the risk of ignoring the true Teacher. Revelation can and should be more than Yes/No. It should open vistas of understanding. Thanks for the comment.

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  • 1 month later...

For those of you who have been to the Temple, eternal progression (including between kingdoms) should be very obvious.

Why do beings from a higher kingdom administer to beings in a lower kingdom? Or, allegorically, why do missionaries preach the gospel to non-members?

I would like to see your answers to these questions...

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