3 Degrees of Glory


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I understand the LDS church does not teach that there is progression between kingdoms.

Tom

So if you blow your chance there are no do overs?!

My own parenting skills allow me to to both constantly forgive my children and to give them whatever time and help they need in making it through their young life. I imagine many of you do the exact same thing. Does that mean we are better parents than God? I don't think so, because he extends an even greater love. We truly have nothing to gain by seeking to limit God's mercy and forgiveness.

Would you seek to put your children out of reach from you without any possibility of them returning?

:)

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I don't understand the point you're trying to make?

My point was that some people who live on this earth WILL be cast into outer darkness, and outer darkness is eternal. Also, those who go to outer darkness will have to pay for their own sins.

Which of those things has not been revealed yet?

The point of not revealing it has a merit as Joseph did not give it to the Saints. This requires a PM.

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No offense intended, but CFR, please?

If I had mentioned something, there is a point of reference. President Joseph Fielding Smith talked about this in the Answers to the Gospel Questions...not only that, educational reasoning is point of illustration to be learned, when Elder Pratt discussed the First Presidency by name after the Savior return.

To remind those here if there is a question to validness of Parley's vision, this man is already resurrected. :D

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If I had mentioned something, there is a point of reference. President Joseph Fielding Smith talked about this in the Answers to the Gospel Questions...not only that, educational reasoning is point of illustration to be learned, when Elder Pratt discussed the First Presidency by name after the Savior return.

To remind those here if there is a question to validness of Parley's vision, this man is already resurrected. :D

If you're going to claim something is doctrinal, please provide references in the Scriptures, General Conference talks, or other accepted doctrinal sources, not some mysterious "private revelation", since you are not President Monson.

The Church has enough trouble with antis grabbing onto any personal speculation they find useful and misrepresenting it as Church doctrine, we really don't need members adding to that confusion while playing "I know something you don't know" and claiming to have received doctrine while not being the authorized spokesman for same.

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Exactly...and do not wish to be prophet or seek to be one. Nor do all prophets have complete knowledge. It is not there place to seek such but to focus on building the kingdom and preparing the Savior's return. Nor does this prevent those who are called and election are sealed, having clarity of canonize doctrines, principles, and mysteries that will not be revealed for a wise or grand purpose. One of them is already stated. It does not take much reasoning to see why this is not reveal and Joseph for not doing so.

The problem I find with a few members and troublesome here, is the lack of searching out the writings for themselves and asking the Godhead on knowledge given. That is a common problem. Doctrines of Salvation is another source to read but noting your own pompous attitude, I highly doubt now I will bother in giving a reference.

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How does not having an opportunity in this life fit in with your notion that God has tailored His plan to accommodate the needs of individuals entirely during this life?

You actually answered this yourself (with your other post). Based off of what we did in Pre-mortal life determines where we end in this life. In a way things are carried over, so in reality the tests are still part of the same over all test. Which really is how our Kingdoms of Glory are going to decided, its going to be more then just this life, its going to be the first two estates.

But, the second estate is a reward for keeping the first estate, and we still have to undergo a test here.

I can see how the “reward” could be used. I would say its more moving on to the second phase. The test isn’t over, its just you past the first phase of it.

So, rewards and tests are clearly not mutually exclusive.

They are when we realize that what ever we did in the pre-mortal life actually effects us here. To what time we would come onto the earth, or what Tribe we would be born into. If it was just radmon luck where we end up in this life then nothing we did before would matter and really the test would start all over. But I don’t see it this way. Its one test with two phase, sooner or later we have to get our grade!

By the same logic, if we are able to progress in the second estate, then there is no point in the first estate.

But its not really the same. Like I just said, if the test actually started all over when we got to this life then you might have a point. But pre-mortal and mortal life have a baring on each other. That brings both part of one test.

I do see your point here. Because our “progression” so to speak was carried over from Pre-mortal life to this earth life, why wouldn’t our progression carry over again.

My point is there is no place in the scriptures that talk about the Kingdoms of Glory being a testing phase. Its more the reward for the first two phases. I think for some reason the Idea that testing and trials still happen in the Kingdoms of Glory is unscriptural.

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I know this has been debated recently in a few threads (one by Pam, I think). I tried to find Pam's thread to comment there, but could not find it.

I understand the LDS church does not teach that there is progression between kingdoms.

For most of my life I have accepted this without question.

But the more I think about it -- some things just don't make sense anymore.

What "bothers" me is my understanding of the ROLE of each member of the Godhead. My understanding of their roles is this:

Elohim - Author of the Plan of Salvation

Jesus Christ - Administers Elohim's plan

Holy Ghost - "Medium" through which the Plan of Salvation is administered unto us by Jesus Christ. The Holy Ghost "speaks the words of Christ" -- quite literally.

More to the point -- this is how I see their MISSION. How each one interacts with us and for what reason:

Holy Ghost -- leads us unto -- Jesus Christ -- who leads us unto -- Elohim, who makes us Joint Heirs with Christ, gives us all that He has!

Now, I take the above truths (again, my interpretation) and apply them to the Three Degrees of Glory. As I understand it, the following is true:

Celestial Kingdom - Elohim ministers unto them

Terrestrial Kingdom - Jesus Christ ministers unto them

Telestial Kingdom - Holy Ghost ministers unto them

I just don't understand how progression between kingdoms is not true. How it will not be possible.

When I think about any kind of life outside of Celestial Glory -- being who I am -- I just don't see how I could be happy. How could I be the SAME PERSON I am today, and be happy?

Am I to believe that a TRILLION BILLION years is not enough time for me to find that obedience and that willingness that was required?

I welcome your thoughts. No rebuttal is needed. I know the Church's position. It just does not follow with what I know of the Godhead. The reason that each member of the Godhead ministers to each of the 3 degrees of Glory is never talked about or explained. Why? Why why why?????

Tom

I have thought the same thing for years as well, thank you for posting this question. It doesn't make sense to mostly all of us I think. All we can do really is have faith and try to accept things even though they don't make sense.... lol I can't believe I just said that!

Anyways if that works for some of you that is great as for me no, I have to know! If it does not make sense and feel right by the spirit then it's WRONG how hard can that be.

There is always this emphasis on progression in the church, from the Light of Christ (outside the church) to the Spirit of Christ (inside the church) to the fulness of the Holy Ghost (Church of the Firstborn, Calling and Election). From Faith to Hope to Charity. Overcoming our weaknesses, Always becoming a better people.

Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection. This has absolutely nothing to do with school, university, book smarts or anything of the subject! Because one minute of looking into heaven and wham you've learned more than you learned in your entire life doing math problems, both Joseph Smith and Hugh Nibley said these things from personal experiences.

And so the question I had was what does "Principle of intelligence" mean? It also implies that there are different levels of intelligence that we can attain CEL TER TEL. Light of Christ intelligence, Spirit of Christ, Holy Ghost.

Satan is also the one demanding Justice and once justice is done it's final because satan can't progress, neither can we. You are where you are because that is the level of intelligence that you attained.

D&C 93:29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence or the Light of Truth. Light of Truth is the Light of Christ and Spirit of Christ.

web.me.com/angelpalmoni

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My first question, Tom, would be what will become of those who did not keep their first estate? Is their state permanent?

My next question is why even have outer darkness for those who are resurrected? Some will come out of hell to the Telestial Kingdom, but some will not. Outer darkness is a place where souls will be sent after they have paid the utmost farthing in hell. Hell will end and those who are sons of perdition will be cast into outer darkness. If they pay the utmost farthing in hell, shouldn't they be allowed a kingdom of glory?

Tom, what did you think of Alma 41? It's only 15 verses, and it's Alma's explanation of "the restoration" that comes with the resurrection to his son Corianton. I'm curious to read your thoughts about that chapter. I'm curious to know what you think about this "state" spoken of.

Justice:

I have not been on in a while, so I missed your post.

THE BOOK OF ALMA

THE SON OF ALMA

CHAPTER 41

In the resurrection men come forth to a state of endless happiness or endless misery—Wickedness never was happiness—Carnal men are without God in the world—Every person receives again in the restoration the characteristics and attributes acquired in mortality. About 73 B.C.

1 And now, my son, I have somewhat to say concerning the restoration of which has been spoken; for behold, some have wrested the scriptures, and have gone far astray because of this thing. And I perceive that thy mind has been worried also concerning this thing. But behold, I will explain it unto thee.

2 I say unto thee, my son, that the plan of restoration is requisite with the justice of God; for it is requisite that all things should be restored to their proper order. Behold, it is requisite and just, according to the power and resurrection of Christ, that the soul of man should be restored to its body, and that every part of the body should be restored to itself.

3 And it is requisite with the justice of God that men should be judged according to their works; and if their works were good in this life, and the desires of their hearts were good, that they should also, at the last day, be restored unto that which is good.

4 And if their works are evil they shall be restored unto them for evil. Therefore, all things shall be restored to their proper order, every thing to its natural frame—mortality raised to immortality, corruption to incorruption—raised to endless happiness to inherit the kingdom of God, or to endless misery to inherit the kingdom of the devil, the one on one hand, the other on the other—

5 The one raised to happiness according to his desires of happiness, or good according to his desires of good; and the other to evil according to his desires of evil; for as he has desired to do evil all the day long even so shall he have his reward of evil when the night cometh.

6 And so it is on the other hand. If he hath repented of his sins, and desired righteousness until the end of his days, even so he shall be rewarded unto righteousness.

7 These are they that are redeemed of the Lord; yea, these are they that are taken out, that are delivered from that endless night of darkness; and thus they stand or fall; for behold, they are their own judges, whether to do good or do evil.

8 Now, the decrees of God are unalterable; therefore, the way is prepared that whosoever will may walk therein and be saved.

9 And now behold, my son, do not risk one more offense against your God upon those points of doctrine, which ye have hitherto risked to commit sin.

10 Do not suppose, because it has been spoken concerning restoration, that ye shall be restored from sin to happiness. Behold, I say unto you, wickedness never was happiness.

11 And now, my son, all men that are in a state of nature, or I would say, in a carnal state, are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; they are without God in the world, and they have gone contrary to the nature of God; therefore, they are in a state contrary to the nature of happiness.

12 And now behold, is the meaning of the word restoration to take a thing of a natural state and place it in an unnatural state, or to place it in a state opposite to its nature?

13 O, my son, this is not the case; but the meaning of the word restoration is to bring back again evil for evil, or carnal for carnal, or devilish for devilish—good for that which is good; righteous for that which is righteous; just for that which is just; merciful for that which is merciful.

14 Therefore, my son, see that you are merciful unto your brethren; deal justly, judge righteously, and do good continually; and if ye do all these things then shall ye receive your reward; yea, ye shall have mercy restored unto you again; ye shall have justice restored unto you again; ye shall have a righteous judgment restored unto you again; and ye shall have good rewarded unto you again.

15 For that which ye do send out shall return unto you again, [[ NEPHITE KARMA? ]] and be restored; therefore, the word restoration more fully condemneth the sinner, and justifieth him not at all.

This is all fine and good.

But I am talking about TRILLIONS of BILLIONS of years. Periods of time that we cannot understand.

I just don't see it. I don't understand the point of a Telestial or Terrestrial glory.... UNLESS ... there is progression between Kingdoms.

I understand the Church's position. I just don't understand it personally anymore.

I am a wicked person. But Christ is good. And He is good TO me. He loves me. I don't see that ever changing. And I don't see His desire for me to be with Him ever expiring.

God talks a lot about OUR fate. But what of God? He will never stop yearning for us to come home, will He?

  • Isa. 49: 16

    16 Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me.

  • 1 Ne. 21: 16

    16 Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me.

I don't see this ending after we are judged and assigned our fates.

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I'm firmly against the idea that our progression stops. If anything -- it simply slows down -- much like failing a course in college. Where did the first God come from if he was not rewarded his calling by a 'higher being'? (I say that to show that it's not necessarily a 'rewrad')

I don't think people comprehend how long 1 billion years is.. It's something like 12.5 million 'average' life spans.. I sure as heck can't comprehend it.

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Then do whatever the heck you want and you'll just be a little behind us all in eternity.... which since it's eternity anyways why not take a little longer?

That is nonsense! FALSE DOCTRINE! JUDGEMENT IS FINAL, OR ELSE THERE IS NO REAL JUDGEMENT OR PUNISHMENT!

It doesn't make sense to have progression between kingdoms, Joseph Smith would smack you lol, well probably me to hahaha.

Edited by john doe
swearing is not necessary
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That is nonsense! FALSE DOCTRINE! JUDGEMENT IS FINAL, OR ELSE THERE IS NO REAL JUDGEMENT OR PUNISHMENT!

I have no set opinion on whether inter-kingdom progression will be possible; but regarding the above I would suggest that someone who has been, say, waterboarded, would be unlikely to agree that their agony was not "real" just because the agony has now terminated.

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Then do whatever the heck you want and you'll just be a little behind us all in eternity.... which since it's eternity anyways why not take a little longer?

That is nonsense! FALSE DOCTRINE! JUDGEMENT IS FINAL, OR ELSE THERE IS NO REAL JUDGEMENT OR PUNISHMENT!

It doesn't make sense to have progression between kingdoms, Joseph Smith would smack you lol, well probably me to hahaha.

It makes all the sense in the world to have progression between kingdoms. We are not men who will be turned into Gods.. we literally are Gods. We grow up, that's it -- how mature we get -- will depend us.

I'll break it down for ya.. in highschool.. we took a math placement test. There were 3 possible outcomes based off of your score.. and it determined what level math you started in.

1) Pre-Algebra (Pre-Algebra, leads to Algebra 1a)

2) Algebra 1a (Algebra 1a+1b = Algebra 1)

3) Alegebra 1

The people who did not test well and were placed into Option 1.. were 3 years behind the people who did test well and got placed into Algebra 1. Not only are they 3 years behind them in highschool.. they're also behind them in college, where they would have to start out at Algebra II, which is not even worth "credit".

So by not testing well -- they were way behind. Does that make sense? These are 18 year olds.. being behind 3 years is like being behind 1/6th of their life. (When we're dealing with eternity.. that is a long time)

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I'll have to be honest, I want to believe it for the sake that it would answer more questions in my mind. The more that I study the scriptures the more that I have to disagree with the idea... But I guess I can always hope. I asked my mission president on my mission he said absolutley no, and he said that he's had conversations with GAs. I think there was a quote from JS or Brigham saying never to think that there is eternal progression with the lower kingdoms. They have great joy and happiness in those kingdoms but they can't create spirit children, and that is eternal increase.

It even makes sence that you can be married in those lower kingdoms and have happiness with your wife, and do TEL and TER physical married things but the intelligences won't allow you to have spirit children.

*Not Doctrine* just bablings of a bored loney gospel addict

Angel Palmoni

Edited by TheAngelPalmoni
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Intelligences

What is interesting to me is that those in the TEL TER will still be living the commandments perfectly, There isn't going to be any sin there... isn't that our definition of the life we have to live now in order to get to the CEL but if we live it here we are just three classes BEHIND IN WHAT? There is something more that we don't really understand when it comes to sin. I don't think it's the sin that keeps us out of the CEL KINGDOM but our valiance and dilligence. Repenting quickly, Charity.

Joseph Smith said that which men esteem holiness he has not any reguard for, to be righteous is to be merciful and just, forgiving others and he said some other awesome stuff. That is why Joseph Smith would walk down the stree pretending to be drunk because it made the saints think about everything. That is why he tried to do everythign to break down the superstition of what everything we think of means...

Honestly!

Sure in the CEL Kingdom there is the Law of Consecration, well guess what that is in the TER Kingdom to, the only thing that will not exist in the TEL and TER kingdoms is POLYGAMY... and if the whole spirit children thing works out then that might make good sense.. and I say that in a very joking voice because I don't even know if I accept that but it's what I'm learning about... Some pills are hard to swallow that is why we are still only fed milk and the occational spoon of Pottage.

Just remember if you were kicking it with Joseph Smith back in the good old days and he told you everything he knew about the kingdom of God we would try to kill him.... I don't know if i can take that out of context that way but I can't help but feel we really mis-understand a lot of doctrine and that we only really have the tip of the ice berg. Although everything we have is the only stuff you need to stay above water, and to be saved I really can't wait for all the stuff that we don't know.

I'm just going to go study FAITH, REPENTANCE, BAPTISM, ATONEMENT, AND GET A PHD IN LIGHT AND TRUTH.

Edited by TheAngelPalmoni
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Satan is also the one demanding Justice and once justice is done it's final because satan can't progress, neither can we.

Does Satan ultimately demand justice or is justice a principle unto itself? Satan can't or won't progress? Who is to say that there can't be a change of heart that comes from within some of the fallen third? Who is to say that our Father has reached the end of progression? Our Father can't or won't digress?

Read Alma 41 carefully. It teaches about the doctrine of restoration. This restoration it says is permanent.

I think I missed the part where it says that the results of the restoration (resurrection) are permanent. When the term "endless" is used, is this in reference to time or merely an adjective used to communicate something of the magnitude or nature of the emotion (happiness and misery)? Please connect the dots in that scripture.

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Does Satan ultimately demand justice or is justice a principle unto itself? Satan can't or won't progress? Who is to say that there can't be a change of heart that comes from within some of the fallen third? Who is to say that our Father has reached the end of progression? Our Father can't or won't digress?QUOTE]

I SAY! JOSEPH SMITH SAYS! MONSON WOULD SAY SO! DO I HAVE TO BE THE CRAZY PERSON WHO SAYS SO? SERIOUSLY...

Oh I'm sorry you are a son of perdition you have to be damned in outer darness for eternity but you can get out on good behavior if you have a change of heart in 4 or 5 trillion years. Really do we really think this? SATAN I'm sorry you denied the Holy Ghost within you how would you like to be BORN as a mortal. You know what if that happens I HOPE YOU GET HIM as one of your children

Ok maybe just maybe I could possibly wisper standing on a stool with one foot that you could progress from TEL to TER, I don't believe it for a second but if it stops someone from crying in sunday school I would maybe wisper it. But to say that we can essentially progress from OUTER DARKNESS to the CEL kingdom, geez I can't wait for that sacrament talk! Honestly you would have to basically then assume that GOD THE FATHER used to once be SATAN!

Are we in the same religion? I think we should Split off and start the Progress between Kingdoms and even from outer darkness fundalmentalist group of MORMONS!

I just hope there aren't any scriptures that we have to cut out of my QUAD.

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Does Satan ultimately demand justice or is justice a principle unto itself? Satan can't or won't progress? Who is to say that there can't be a change of heart that comes from within some of the fallen third? Who is to say that our Father has reached the end of progression? Our Father can't or won't digress?QUOTE]

I SAY! JOSEPH SMITH SAYS! MONSON WOULD SAY SO! DO I HAVE TO BE THE CRAZY PERSON WHO SAYS SO? SERIOUSLY...

Oh I'm sorry you are a son of perdition you have to be damned in outer darness for eternity but you can get out on good behavior if you have a change of heart in 4 or 5 trillion years. Really do we really think this? SATAN I'm sorry you denied the Holy Ghost within you how would you like to be BORN as a mortal. You know what if that happens I HOPE YOU GET HIM as one of your children

Ok maybe just maybe I could possibly wisper standing on a stool with one foot that you could progress from TEL to TER, I don't believe it for a second but if it stops someone from crying in sunday school I would maybe wisper it. But to say that we can essentially progress from OUTER DARKNESS to the CEL kingdom, geez I can't wait for that sacrament talk! Honestly you would have to basically then assume that GOD THE FATHER used to once be SATAN!

Are we in the same religion? I think we should Split off and start the Progress between Kingdoms and even from outer darkness fundalmentalist group of MORMONS!

I just hope there aren't any scriptures that we have to cut out of my QUAD.

What does eternal progression mean to you?

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No one is talking about taking a son of perdition and plopping him into exaltation, Palmoni.

They're talking about progression between the kingdoms, which implies that you're already within one of the kingdoms of glory. Outer darkness is not a kingdom of glory.

Frankly, I don't have a major beef with the idea of progression between the Telestial Kingdom and the Terrestrial Kingdom, or even between the Terrestrial Kingdom and one of the lower degrees of the Celestial Kingdom. Where I would draw the line is at a theory of inter-kingdom progression that either 1) elevates the sons of perdition to a kingdom of glory; or 2) granting exaltation (i.e. eternal increase) to a person who originally attained a glory where eternal increase was specifically barred.

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It makes all the sense in the world to have progression between kingdoms. We are not men who will be turned into Gods.. we literally are Gods. We grow up, that's it -- how mature we get -- will depend us.

I'll break it down for ya.. in highschool.. we took a math placement test. There were 3 possible outcomes based off of your score.. and it determined what level math you started in.

1) Pre-Algebra (Pre-Algebra, leads to Algebra 1a)

2) Algebra 1a (Algebra 1a+1b = Algebra 1)

3) Alegebra 1

The people who did not test well and were placed into Option 1.. were 3 years behind the people who did test well and got placed into Algebra 1. Not only are they 3 years behind them in highschool.. they're also behind them in college, where they would have to start out at Algebra II, which is not even worth "credit".

So by not testing well -- they were way behind. Does that make sense? These are 18 year olds.. being behind 3 years is like being behind 1/6th of their life. (When we're dealing with eternity.. that is a long time)

If there could be progression, they will never reached the state where those who entered into the Celestial Kingdom. Nor is the Celestial Kingdom the end all to our state. There is allot that Joseph held back for good reasons.

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If there could be progression, they will never reached the state where those who entered into the Celestial Kingdom. Nor is the Celestial Kingdom the end all to our state. There is allot that Joseph held back for good reasons.

Of course. If you "fail that course" so to speak.. that's time that you can never get back. You'll never catch the rest of the group if they're doing what they're supposed to be doing..

The idea of 'damnation' is repulsive to me. Why have 'outer darkness' at all.. if the punishments of the lower kingdoms are equal? It would be a shallow existence.. with no hope outside of death -- and immortal intelligences don't die frequently it would seem.

I'd much rather destruction and oblivion than living with the hope of 'something better'. I don't think I'm alone in that sentiment.

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I don't understand your thoughts about why have an outer darkness. This will be the place that Satan and all his angels will end up. As well as the sons of perdition. Why should they not be banned to an outer darkness instead of reaping some benefit from a lower kingdom?

This is the plan and the way Heavenly Father has set it up. Are you arguing the plan with Him?

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The idea of 'damnation' is repulsive to me. Why have 'outer darkness' at all.. if the punishments of the lower kingdoms are equal? It would be a shallow existence.. with no hope outside of death -- and immortal intelligences don't die frequently it would seem.

Can God destroy what He did not create?

If the intelligences pre-dated God (or exist independently of Him), then it would seem logical that the maximum punishment God can impose is to restore a spirit He created back into that raw state of intelligence. Theoretically (as per the Gospel According To Just_A_Guy), He can't consign a disobedient being to complete oblivion.

At any rate, though, the punishments of the lower kingdoms are not equal. Those assigned to a kingdom of glory still progress, and experience self-improvement. Those consigned to outer darkness do not.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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