Discerning Spirits

[Justice]

What remarkable comments from Joseph Smith that were in this week's lesson!

As I read it my thoughts turned to many of the comments I have read in this forum recently.

"...for nothing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit when they think they have the Spirit of God."

"And we shall at last have to come to this conclusion, whatever we may think of revelation, that without it we can neither know nor understand anything of God, or the devil; and however unwilling the world may be to acknowledge this principle, it is evident from the multifarious creeds and notions concerning this matter that they understand nothing of this principle, and it is equally as plain that without a divine communication they must remain in ignorance."

"No man nor set of men without the regularly constituted authorities, the Priesthood and discerning of spirits, can tell true from false spirits."

These quotes are all from the last section of the lesson. If these interest you, I'd suggest you read the last section.

How great is the insight he gives as to why some are deceived, and how hard it is to break free of that deception.

Does anything in these quotes catch your attention?

[Justice]

I figured the non-LDS who frequent here would have some comments about these quotes.

And for you members... doesn't it shed some light on why some don't even want to listen?

[Seanette]

I already know why some have their minds closed and locked against the truth: they've been indoctrinated to fear new communication from God that will tell them their current church is in doctrinal error (former Protestant fundamentalist here who experienced this herself).

Somewhat relevant article here. Largely about "churches" that tell their members not to pray about the Book of Mormon (which I also experienced), but the general concepts expressed apply quite well to simply deciding to ignore anything the Church has to say.

[Justice]

Interesting.

Thank you for your comment.

I guess what I had never given enough thought to was that Joseph Smith is saying it is impossible for them to know unless they receive revelation. Now, we know that revelation is available to all. So, just as you said, it is their willingness to follow a false notion that prevents them from receiving this revelation.

I know this is the same thing we have always been taught, but sometimes I need to hear it said with different words before I can wrap my brain around it.

I've always thought it was that they wouldn't understand, like it was some sort of choice not to see. But, because of their choice it's that they can't understand... it's impossible. So, it's not that they are trying to be stubborn, it's that they can't see.

The choice is to deny revelation, and not necessarily to deny the truth we teach.

I'm not sure if that makes sense, but I don't know how else to word it at the moment.

[hordak]

"...for nothing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit when they think they have the Spirit of God."

"And we shall at last have to come to this conclusion, whatever we may think of revelation, that without it we can neither know nor understand anything of God, or the devil; and however unwilling the world may be to acknowledge this principle, it is evident from the multifarious creeds and notions concerning this matter that they understand nothing of this principle, and it is equally as plain that without a divine communication they must remain in ignorance."

Most non LDS Christens i know believe they receive revelation from God and they can know the truth by comparing it with established scripture.(AKA the Bible) While the LDS are more vocal in the belief "the heavens aren't closed" it is not a unique position, it is just that the changes are more "drastic" in the church (LDS). The church puts more emphases on revelation for the church while others put more emphasis on revelation for the individual.IMO

"No man nor set of men without the regularly constituted authorities, the Priesthood and discerning of spirits, can tell true from false spirits."

This quote would really hold no sway with one who doesn't think Joseph Smith was a Prophet.

Joseph Smith saying one can't tell false spirits from true one without the authority/ Priesthood of "his" church would be the same thing to a non LDS member as the Pope saying you can't know truth without the authority/Priesthood that "his" church has to a LDS member or other non Catholic.

It isn't just limited to the beginnings of the church and a lack belief in the Prophethood(?) of JS either.

Other churches don't necessarily deny revelation. They deny LDS revelation for the same reason LDS don't give women the Priesthood. They don't believe Thomas Monson is a Prophet anymore then you believe Wallace B Smith is.

Just to put it in perspective.

(there are a lot on non lds churches and i don't claim to know all their views on the subject of modern day revelation)

Edited June 16, 2009 by hordak
me no spel gud

[Hemidakota]

What remarkable comments from Joseph Smith that were in this week's lesson!

As I read it my thoughts turned to many of the comments I have read in this forum recently.

"...for nothing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit when they think they have the Spirit of God."

"And we shall at last have to come to this conclusion, whatever we may think of revelation, that without it we can neither know nor understand anything of God, or the devil; and however unwilling the world may be to acknowledge this principle, it is evident from the multifarious creeds and notions concerning this matter that they understand nothing of this principle, and it is equally as plain that without a divine communication they must remain in ignorance."

"No man nor set of men without the regularly constituted authorities, the Priesthood and discerning of spirits, can tell true from false spirits."

These quotes are all from the last section of the lesson. If these interest you, I'd suggest you read the last section.

How great is the insight he gives as to why some are deceived, and how hard it is to break free of that deception.

Does anything in these quotes catch your attention?

No different than those members in the church claiming to have knowledge of the Godhead and actually do not. Nor do they know how to invoke the Spirit of the Lord when it is necessary for blessings. I find this perplexing among the priesthood holders.

Last Sunday, I had asked for a blessing to overcome some health difficulties from Saturday morning. I usually allow those who are ‘beyond the usual faith level’ to administer these types of blessings since they do know how to invoke the Spirit. My wife asked our Home Teacher to administer the blessing but was afraid and passed this on to HP Group Leader. So, it was left in the hands of two members of the HP Quorum. As we spoke in the stake interview room, I mentioned to them, I am unique and not the standard unusual member of the church. Went on to explain why it is necessary to invoke the Spirit of the Lord for this type of blessing. While under the hands of both men, I did listen intently to the blessing and when finished, hugged both men. The sad part, this blessing was not confirmed by the Spirit and felt the impression, was not what the Lord imparted. That was quite puzzling to me, leaving with an impression, one of them felt his voice was more important than the Spirit and conveyed the wrong message. As I was in attendance of the same HP group leaders meeting, he offered a lesson about forgiveness. Doing the meeting, I wanted to impress upon him, it is not his will should be felt but the Spirit of Lord. In giving story of a personal interview of a return missionary, who sought repentance from the Lord, I explained to them, we have the power to lift the burden but many do not have the power to forgive the sin. Only the Lord and those who are called by Him can remove the sin and the burden. At that moment, the Holy Ghost confirmed what I had spoken as I stopped for that brief moment, feeling the power of my Brother [HG] bearing its presence, I looked at every person in the room to see if they also felt it. The purpose of this story was to invoke the Spirit to see who was intune of the HG presence. Not many Justice…not many. I spoke to my wife later explaining to her, when she asked how the blessing went; I told her I did not feel the confirmation of the Spirit. I do need another blessing.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Hemidakota

[lilered]

Another reason may be for those of another faith often leave such matters to their Priest or Minister and depend on him for discerning of the spirit as well as the meaning/interrupretation of Gods word.

[Islander]

That has been always the case (faith, belief, understanding by proxy). Some, in any congregation, are getting by weighted down with worry, anxiety, stress, unrepentant transgression, spiritual weakness and those sorts of personal struggles. You notice that the same 20-30 people bear their testimony on Fast Sunday month after month. I have been in my ward 7 years and there are people that have never stood in front of the congregation. In the HP groups or the EQ's there are the same people that always step up to fill the gap when HT needs to be done, less active to visit or emergencies arise. For many, faith, testimony, spiritual life and belief hangs by a thread.

It is the same priesthood and spirit available to ALL. Revelation is available to all, the voice of the Lord is also available to all but it is not invoked and that is our failure. We are the ones that fail to qualify to receive such blessings.

For years, in my line of work I admonished my clients: "What you think you already know will become the greatest stumbling block to learning new things that will allow you to get to the bottom of the issues you currently face. New knowledge is always blocked by the assertion of old knowledge"

And yes, there are many who claim that there is no new revelation. I suggest that is just a statement of convenience.

[mountthepavement]

"No man nor set of men without the regularly constituted authorities, the Priesthood and discerning of spirits, can tell true from false spirits."

The meaning of this last one is obscure to me.

[Justice]

Regularly constituted authorities are Apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangilists and the other offices and authorities of the church. The Priesthood, we believe, was restored to the earth to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery by John the Baptist (Aaronic) and Peter, James, and John (Melkezidek).

Gifts are given authorities of the Christ's Church to help it's governance.

Basically what he's saying is there is order, and God gives gifts and operates through this order.

[TruthSeekerToo]

Another reason may be for those of another faith often leave such matters to their Priest or Minister and depend on him for discerning of the spirit as well as the meaning/interrupretation of Gods word.

I don't really see how this quote from Joseph Smith is any different.

"No man nor set of men without the regularly constituted authorities, the Priesthood and discerning of spirits, can tell true from false spirits."

Sooo, women cannot discern for themselves? People with a desire for truth, but not yet holding all those attributes, cannot discern for themselves?

I have to admit I was very surprised by this statement while helping my friend plan this lesson. I really don't know if I understand the message trying to be conveyed.

My mom has the gift of discernment. Is this a different kind or something?

Is a "false spirit" the same as a bad spirit?

[Justice]

Sooo, women cannot discern for themselves?

I didn't read that at all.

People with a desire for truth, but not yet holding all those attributes, cannot discern for themselves?

The basic point he is making is that all truth comes from God. Determining truth must come through revelation. If there is no order to the revelation, with duly ordained Priesthood authorities, how do you know one revelation is of God and another is of Satan?

Without a standard it is impossible to know.

[Hemidakota]

The priesthood is the title to exercise the power or honor of GOD.

[TruthSeekerToo]

"No man nor set of men without the regularly constituted authorities, the Priesthood and discerning of spirits, can tell true from false spirits."

To me, this appears to be saying that an individual man must have the PH and gift of discerning of spirits. A body of men must have all three. Men could be used in the generic way meaning all men/women, but it is unclear here. That is why I wondered what you guys think it means. I went and read it in context and it seems to mean the body of the church.

Determining truth must come through revelation. If there is no order to the revelation, with duly ordained Priesthood authorities, how do you know one revelation is of God and another is of Satan?

Without a standard it is impossible to know.

What is the order to personal revelation?

All humans have the Light of Christ. The LoC is given that we may know truth.

Having never received a revelation from Satan, I guess I can't be positive I would know the difference. However, having the Light of Christ and gift of the HG I feel very confident that I would be able to tell the difference. Plus, God will tell us if it is from Him if we ask.

There is a standard available to all.

Do people during all times of apostacy still have the Light of Christ given to them? Yes. So what is the purpose?

So, during the time of this statement members of the church were claiming revelation contrary to JS, convulsing with "the spirit," finding their own seer stones, following a ball of light off a cliff, etc.

JS then writes an article to the people about how to discern spirits. These were among the specific false spirits he spoke of.

If I lived at that time and witnessed one of these events, would I have the right and ability to know which spirit is came from? Would an unbaptised person?

How come only some have the gift of discerning? That MUST be different than being able to tell if a revelation is from God. Otherwise, I would have to go to my bishop to verify every tingle I'd ever received.

We can have the gift of discerning of spirits. George Q. Cannon has called the gift of discerning of spirits “a gift that is of exceeding value and one that should be enjoyed by every Latter-day Saint. … No Latter-day Saint should be without this gift, because there is such a variety of spirits in the world which seek to deceive and lead astray” (Gospel Truth, sel. Jerreld L. Newquist, 2 vols. in 1 [1987], 156–57).

I like this quote because that is how I feel about it. All people should have access to and strive for this gift. It is so, so important. And it isn't good enough to have to rely on someone else to tell you if something is true or false.

Those without this gift will be deceived.

I'm not sure if I'm conveying my thoughts and concerns well. I'll sum it up by saying my main concern is that people will read that statement and think they don't have to "try the spirits" if it comes from someone whom they *think* has all 3 of those qualifiers. Or worse, they'll think they don't have access to this gift for themselves.

[mountthepavement]

"No man nor set of men without the regularly constituted authorities, the Priesthood and discerning of spirits, can tell true from false spirits."

Okay, thanks for your explanation above.

Now, a question: It seems to me to be circular to say that we are unable to discern true from false spirits without the aid of the authorities you speak of, while this must imply that we are unable to discern whether the spirit embodied or expressed by the authorities themselves is true or false. Even if we are endowed with priesthood ourselves, how can we be sure, therefore, that the spiritual discerning granted us is veridical? Seems like a legitimate question to me, but perhaps I am stretching.

[Justice]

There is an implied difference between personal revalation (who to marry, what college to attend) and doctrinal revealtion (is baptism necessary, who is God).

[Still_Small_Voice]

That quote reminds me of a scripture:

Proverbs 14:12

There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

[MarginOfError]

To me, this appears to be saying that an individual man must have the PH and gift of discerning of spirits. A body of men must have all three. Men could be used in the generic way meaning all men/women, but it is unclear here. That is why I wondered what you guys think it means. I went and read it in context and it seems to mean the body of the church.

What is the order to personal revelation?

All humans have the Light of Christ. The LoC is given that we may know truth.

Having never received a revelation from Satan, I guess I can't be positive I would know the difference. However, having the Light of Christ and gift of the HG I feel very confident that I would be able to tell the difference. Plus, God will tell us if it is from Him if we ask.

There is a standard available to all.

Do people during all times of apostacy still have the Light of Christ given to them? Yes. So what is the purpose?

So, during the time of this statement members of the church were claiming revelation contrary to JS, convulsing with "the spirit," finding their own seer stones, following a ball of light off a cliff, etc.

JS then writes an article to the people about how to discern spirits. These were among the specific false spirits he spoke of.

If I lived at that time and witnessed one of these events, would I have the right and ability to know which spirit is came from? Would an unbaptised person?

How come only some have the gift of discerning? That MUST be different than being able to tell if a revelation is from God. Otherwise, I would have to go to my bishop to verify every tingle I'd ever received.

I like this quote because that is how I feel about it. All people should have access to and strive for this gift. It is so, so important. And it isn't good enough to have to rely on someone else to tell you if something is true or false.

Those without this gift will be deceived.

I'm not sure if I'm conveying my thoughts and concerns well. I'll sum it up by saying my main concern is that people will read that statement and think they don't have to "try the spirits" if it comes from someone whom they *think* has all 3 of those qualifiers. Or worse, they'll think they don't have access to this gift for themselves.

As Justice said, I think it's important to distinguish between "organizational" revelation (revelation that is meant for the Church as a whole, or for a segment of it, such as a stake or a ward), and "personal" revelation. Changes in structure or policy for the Church will be directed by those who have the keys and administrative authority of the Priesthood. But having the Priesthood is not required to determine if the angel that woke you up in the middle of the night is on a divine or demonic errand.

[martybess]

"...for nothing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit when they think they have the Spirit of God."

A great hindrances to revelation is apathy. This is connected to the trusting of our leaders (not confirming ourselves). Thinking were doing everything when really were doing nothing (just going thru the motions). Is this not being under the influence a false spirit?

-Marty

Edited June 19, 2009 by martybess
spelling

[FunkyTown]

Your FACE is under a false spirit.

Sick burn. Plus constructive to the thread at hand.

You're welcome, Internet.

[Justice]

Humor is good. :)