Just for the Kids?

[redtide]

Probably a story like half a million others. About us: We've been married for 20 years (temple). We have 5 kids from 2 years to 18 years. We both love our kids and would do anything for them. We always have FHE, family scripture study, family prayer, family events . . . everything. For most of our marriage, things have been good, but . . .

The marriage problems: My wife and I have constantly fought over petty things. I know it takes two, but she has often erupted with physical violence in her anger. I hate fighting about everything (seems that way), and then for a period of time things will all be back to normal. Then, something will happen and more fights. It's tiring. It's old. She claims that I am the only one whom she fights with. So let's assume we're both at fault. But it seems to be only between the two. Everyone else loves us, individually and as a couple. Go figure. In the past, we went through a period in which we had no intimacy for about 18 months. Neither one of us wanted to be with the other. It was pretty much emotional divorce. At that time, we each agreed that we would never leave for the kids.

Me: 3 months ago I started helping a past friend from high school in a divorce situation. In trying to SAVE her marriage, I became emotional attached. For about six weeks, she and I engaged in an intense emotional affair (though nothing physical). I knew it was wrong, but was trying to figure out how I could have both. Obviously, you can't. I met this girl face-to-face, and she wanted me to "stay" and leave my family. I didn't. I went back to my wife, wife saw an email about the issue, and she erupted at me. I told my wife everything. My wife then spent the next 72 hours going through every email between me and this other girl to know EVERYTHING that we had discussed. Obviously that's hurtful to a loved one (to the wife). I probably should have stopped it (bishop and SP said I should have), but I didn't. I opened EVERYTHING to my wife.

Response: We spoke to the bishop. He said he couldn't do anything as per the church and would send to SP. I also have a fairly important calling in the stake, so there were two issues. My wife was livid. She wanted church discipline - anything. I asked the bishop for some form of discipline, but he said he couldn't. With SP, he listened and opined this was between me and my wife. He couldn't do anything. I asked for a form of punishment, saying my wife would be livid without it. SP refused, saying that the Church doesn't mete out punishments and that what I had done was between me and my wife but nothing for formal discipline. I asked to be released, but SP refused. He strongly advised that we keep this close (just between husband/wife) and move on as we were both dedicated to marriage. Wife found out and claimed "good old boy" network. Bishop removed my temple recommend for 3 months, and I'm hoping that will make my wife happy. Well, it didn't.

Now: I have been completely open with my wife about everything, albeit without dredging up details. I can't explain it, but something just "switched" with me. I have ZERO desire towards this other woman (I've never had issues with anyone else). My heart has so changed that I want to do anything to bless the life of my wife. She can't understand that. She says she needs time (and I understand that). Now my wife continues to go through old accounts. She brings up details and accuses me of lying or holding back. Sometimes, I just don't remember something. She doesn't buy that. Then she accuses me of hatching a plan to go to this girl in one year, and that I'm just pretending. I'm not. She will see an e-mail with the first letter of the other woman's name and accuse me of receiving email from the other woman. She demands to know whether I'm contacting the other woman, almost daily. I have not had any contact with the other woman since I first told my wife.

Finally, I believed that her constant research of my cell phone and email accounts was causing more problems than not. I changed all the passwords and refused her access. I told her why. She was livid. She physically attacked me and I held her down. I let her know that if she touched me again I would begin filing police reports and would pursue it. I had enough. She wants full access again (probably I should give it to her, I know), but it seems that she uses that access to just make unfounded accusations. The next day, we had a phone conversation and she shared with me that she had never found me attractive (okay, I'm not Wolverine but I do pretty well, I think!), that she was only with me for the kids, and that she married me for money. Once we changed jobs from the BIG firm to a more relaxed job, that money went away (about 6 years ago) and we live a more simple life (while having everything that we want, really). We just don't have the latest toys and cars, but acreage and horses while living in paradise (and she LOVES her house and her community) is hardly something to sneer at.

So now what? Part of me is just ready to part. I don't want to stay married to a person just for kids. I'm sorry, but I'd figure out a way to help the kids while solo. But also, the things that she has said have so hurt me that I really wonder why we are together. The reasons that she married me are gone, and she finds me unattractive? Maybe that's just "hatred" or tinted glasses, but she's made enough suggestions through our marriage regarding men she finds attractive that I'm now connecting the dots. (Has nothing to do with looks, but all about body type - she likes offensive linemen and I'm a small receiver.)

I don't know if I can ever look at her the same again. Now that I am having doubts, she's saying that I'm walking the line of anyone who commits infidelity (emotional, for me) in that I blame her. See, my brother has advised me that if she doesn't change and get counseling for her long-time physical abuse and anger issues, that I should leave FOR the benefit of the kids. My wife has been on depression drugs for about 8 years, and that helped the anger issues big time. She recently went off the drugs, and maybe that was the cause of the latest blow up.

In any event, I read the posts here and they make me WANT to stay with her no matter what and cherish her. But, . . .

Thoughts?

[lestertheemt]

Wow!! I am really not in a position to give advice, but I'll go ahead and give you my 2 cents.

It really sounds like you have and are truly trying. It also sounds like you have gone through the repentance process. It sounds like the ball is in your wifes corner.

I agree w/ your brother about the physical abuse and anger issues. She needs counseling and needs to get back on her medication.

I also highly recommend the dvd "Fireproof" it isn't LDS but it is really a good movie to watch together. Serve her and pray for her.

I wish you the best.

[foreverafter]

I understand that your wife definately has her issues to work on. But husbands are obligated to work on their's 1st. If a husband does not have True Love for his wife & treat her like a queen, as he vowed he would, than the woman is not obligated to even stay with him, let alone return True Love. For she is only in the marriage based upon his promises to get her to marry him & trust him & become vulnerable to him. That's a huge leap of faith women take for men.

It does not seem to me that you or your leaders realize the seriousness of what you did by your Emotional Adultery. That is as destructive to a marriage as physical adultery & is just as serious to God & to a wife, with all the same eternal consequences, unless repented of. Emotional Adultery can cause one to quickly become 'past feeling' & thus not care about their spouse & marriage anymore. (Sadly most leaders are not yet educated in abuse like Pres. Hinckley said he wanted them to be) Emotional Adultery is one of the most severe spouse abuses there is, it's as bad as some physical or sexual abuse. And leaders are supposed to apply serious consequences for abuse to help the person realize just how bad it is. Pres. Hinckley announced over & over in Gen. Conf. just what those consequences should be for abuse.

You have destroyed the trust & foundation of your marriage by your adultery & your arguing for what you want over her desires & even more so by not continuing to be as open as she needs you to be, despite how annoying that is. You do not seem to be dying at the pain you caused her but focusing on your pain because of her reaction to your abuse & adultery. The things she has said that are hurtful are probably based upon her pain from you not keeping your covenants to love her. If you will truely love her she will probably feel very different about you. But her pain at your unfaithfulness may never heal in this life & something she will always have to deal with now & may never be able to trust you again, but that is not her fault. It will depend on you if you can regain that trust again, by being completely transparent & remorseful & making it up to her for the rest of your life, for that's how long she will have to deal with this pain of your adultery. That's why adultery is so serious, it can bring lifelong pain & distrust.

You needn't ever have another argument. Just give her & do for her whatever she wants, unless it's really unrighteous. Arguments show that neither spouse is seeking to put the other's desires & happiness 1st before their own, but instead they are trying to get what they want. Marriages cannot survive that.

The well-fare of your children must always come 1st in your lives. Divorce destroys children's lives. They have a divine right that you promised them at their birth, to have their own Mommy & Daddy get along & live together lovingly.

You will be amazed at how much power you have to have a happy peaceful homelife with your wife while being madly in love with her, if just you will keep your marriage covenants to give your daily life to making her happy & serving her every wish.

Does anyone believe in True Love anymore? It's not something that falls in our lap but something we create no matter what the other spouse does.

Edited June 24, 2009 by foreverafter

[ztodd]

Are you both praying together as a couple each morning and night? Studying scriptures together? I hope you don't think I'm just throwing out sunday school answers. It really is important.

[Soul_Searcher]

Maybe talk to her and work out a plan of action together on how you can work it out. Ask her what she wants from you that would make your marriage good again (NOT having access to your phone etc, how to have a good solid marriage based on love trust and mutual respect). Tell her the same. Ask her if she even WANTS it to work, it looks like maybe she is looking for an excuse for YOU to leave her so she is in the clear (insulting you etc). If she has no desire to work on it, you will find out from this conversation. Tell her what you'd like to happen and how you want to work on it together. Tell her that you cant go on like this and these changes need to happen. Set a limit to see these changes making a difference. Tell your wife this. i.e if its not working within x weeks/months maybe you should consider separating.

[Elgama]

OK here are ,my 2 cents worth again noone else knows your situation 100% and I am just going by reading your posts she has issues she has to deal with and maybe they would be better done away from the family unit, UNLESS she can stop the violence, if she is violent with you, you cannot guarantee when you are not around the children won't be targeted. And she should only get passwords back etc when she earns that trust, my husband lost the right to access my tool box and purse when I could not trust him over it , he's gained the right back to the purse but not my tool box yet. Right now trust has gone on both sides she has lied to you for your entire marriage according to her and she has to repent and make decisions.

I do think staying together for the kids is important but I also don't believe staying together in a violent relationship is right because the kids should not see that as in anyway acceptable

-Charley

[redtide]

While she physically attacks me, it's on rare occasion. I don't feel threatened by it, because I am stronger than her. The things most disconcerting about the whole deal are:

* that the kids see it,

* that she has expressed reasons for marriage that are now gone in her sight, so I wonder why stay together with someone you aren't even attracted to or you consider a poor provider.

We spoke briefly this morning. It was not "pleasant" but we communicated. We will be seeing the bishop this afternoon, but I really think that it is out of the Church's hands at this point. The deal is between me and my wife. Sure, counseling gives a third-party perspective, but IF she believes what she has told me then I really don't know how to get over that.

This morning she wanted to know why I had backed off, when before I had been so pleasant as she was struggling to get over my own emotional infidelity (her rightful sense of betrayal by me of her love). I told her two reasons: (i) she is not open with me about her contacts, and in talking about my betrayal of her to many friends, and (ii) she has told me that the only reason she married me was because she believed I would earn the 6 figure salary in perpetuity, and once we left the big salary her dreams were dashed, coupled with her never being attracted to me. She clarified that the REASON she married me was because the Lord told her to.

While that should cheer me up, it really doesn't. I just feel like I've been living for 20 years with a woman who was sacrificing her wants/needs/desires to do the will of the Lord, as opposed to marrying the treasure of her heart. That is the hardest thing to get over for me.

On the former, maybe it's a sense of the lack of humility on my part (probably is) to object to her telling so many of her friends about what I had done to her. I understand the need to share with a few others, to seek emotional support. But the other part of me (natural man part) is frustrated that she trumpets my bad acts to "everyone." I don't do the same to her. No one knows of many of the things that she has done to me. I would never tell my mom, because I don't want to create a stumbling block between my wife and my mom. I don't tell my friends, because I don't want them to think bad of my wife.

But maybe I should just let go and let her do as she wants. Just so not sure.

This morning she also told me that she recognized it was wrong for her to go digging into the past, but that she couldn't help herself. My response is that's why I stopped it by closing her access to the accounts. She wants me to just delete things from the past, so she can just see the present/future. That'd be wonderful, and at one point we did just that together. But apparently I did not get them all, and who knows what digging can find.

Really, the open access has to mean that she sees only today and the future, and she stop searching archives. Anywho . . . I will advise after our meeting with the bishop. I don't expect much from that meeting, though. I really think that the solution is open communication and a decision on going forward by each of us.

Thanks for the thoughts.

Um, last question. I mentioned that I was seeking advice from an LDS forum that dealt with these issues, mainly as that forum favored staying together and I was trying to understand how to do that and why that would be right in the face of the knowledge I now have of my wife's reason for marriage to me. She was fairly upset, and I'm worried that she will seek out forums and find this. If she does, she'd certainly know this is our situation.

Should I just delete to avoid an "online" confrontation?

[redtide]

Are you both praying together as a couple each morning and night? Studying scriptures together? I hope you don't think I'm just throwing out sunday school answers. It really is important.

I believe it is important. The prayer is off and on. I've never been a fan of group study of scriptures, even though we do it as a family. I HATED reading the scriptures out loud with my companion while on a mission. (I can study/learn a lot more while feasting alone as opposed to waiting for another person to read out loud.) We have never been great at gospel study together as a couple. That is a skill that I have to learn how to enjoy.

Prayer has not been offered the last few days because I find it hard to feel the Spirit when around her. This morning, I ended up leaving before family scripture study began (only my wife and oldest got up for it, the younger kids were fighting my attempts to rouse them). Why? The "discussion" from the morning was carrying on in the run up to scriptures, and, frankly, I felt like a hypocrite to kneel down and pray with my wife when contention is all around.

I know. The answer is to get down on your knees and pray until you FEEL like praying. But this morning was not that time. I needed to get away and find some peace, so the morning commute did that for me.

Pretty sad when a morning commute in traffic is more peaceful than some time alone with your spouse . . .

[redtide]

Okay . . . last post and then back to work. I know that I am regressing. I was moving on, I felt the Spirit in my life again, I felt overwhelming love for my wife. I saw her as my bride. I was SOOO happy. Unfortunately, my past acts in reaching out to this other girl so hurt my wife that she is mightily struggling to overcome it. That introduces contention into the house that is driving me away.

If I were more humble, and patient, I would just let these things roll of my back. I wouldn't care how many people she told. (At one point, I didn't. When I mentioned that to the SP, he corrected me and told me that we should keep this between us and to NOT tell the world. I told my wife that, but she refuses to accept it. She says that was HIS advice to me, not to her. And that she can't stand the man because he could not be of God and not have disciplined me or at least release me.*) I wouldn't care about her false accusations. I would just smile, and be nice back.

I think that I could have done all of that, had I not known that the only reason she married me was because she believes that God commanded her to. I have to be candid. If I had not been attracted to my wife, I would never have even ASKED God whether to marry her. I would never have dated her, likely. My emotional affair with this other woman wasn't because I was not attracted to my wife. I am. Sure, I had withdrawn and was tired of the arguments. But still, I know that I was in the wrong. My wife was always beautiful.

But this knowledge that she never saw me in that light, other than God told her to? I wish that I had never known.

*I really did asked to be disciplined and released. I love my calling, but it's a TON of work. I have another 4-5 years in the calling, and it will mean a LOT of future sacrifice as well. I would LOVE to be a Primary teacher, or Sunday School. Just give me a simple calling that I can devote my time to. I REALLY could care less about "glory" or something of a so-called "high" calling. Really.

Edited June 24, 2009 by redtide

[Gwen]

a book to consider..... His Needs, Her Needs

[redtide]

It's in the mail! (That and another one someone suggested.)

[redtide]

Side subject. What are some effective ways of "gospel study" with your spouse? Reading alternate sections of text bore me. I find myself reading ahead because I can read about 10x faster than my spouse . . . really. She's wonderfully brilliant, but I can just read really fast.

Is there a thread where this is discussed?

[Tarnished]

I am sure you have heard this before. When we get angry we can sometimes find ourselves saying hurtful things that we may not really mean at the time. Now she could have truly meant what she said to you about not being attracted to you. However, I am guessing that it is more a case of she is angry about finding out that you have been having a relationship with another woman, even if it was only emotional, she is off her meds, and you both have been having problems. This has probably led her to think about your marriage and think about her choices to get into it, she has probably rethought some of her original thoughts when getting married. When we are hurt often we feel the need to strike back, and it sounds like your wife has a problem with this, when she gets hurt, be it emotional or physically, she feels a need to strike back and often gives into her feelings.

Once a marriage starts to have problems it is easy to let those problems get bigger and bigger, especially because each person in the relationship is getting hurt and often reacts in response to the hurt rather than try to find a way to fix the problem. Fixing the problem is difficult, because by fixing it we need to start to look at things differently, we need to try and find what parts of the problem are on our shoulders and fix the way we go about things. We need to change the way we look at our spouse and try to love them no matter how awful they are being. It is very difficult because it opens us up to even more hurt. And there is a chance that all our efforts will come to nothing, but if we never try then it will definitely fail.

Someone mentioned the movie “Fireproof” and I would second that idea. Also I would suggest getting the book that goes along with it, “The Love Dare”. Though it is full of things you could think up on your own it gives you guidelines on what you can do to be more loving to your spouse. I would also see if you can encourage her to go back on her meds. When a person takes medication for a chemical imbalance there is a lot that can be fixed by staying on them.

Good luck with all of this, I hope things work out for the two of you.

[redtide]

Had lunch with the Bishop. He doesn't think that he can offer anything at this point, unless we need a third party to be there to keep each other calm/reasonable. But that's not an issue in my opinion. So my wife and I will be discussing where to go from here.

Bishop's advice:

* can't tell you from the Church that either of you should separate,

* understand of either of you feel the need

* figure out what the two of you want, and then how to get there.

In the end, I want my bride. But I don't want her to stay with me out of duty or sacrifice to the Lord's instruction. Part of me wishes that she'd find a 6'4" 250 lb guy with a six-figure salary to go off with and then she could be happy. I would not mind if she found happiness that way. But what I don't want is her to feel like she is sacrificing to stay with me, forgo her happiness out of some religious duty.

[foreverafter]

So many people are righteously staying in difficult marriages because of religious duty & for the children's sake. Keeping our covenants is not always easy or what we want to do at the moment, but it will make all the difference for your happiness & salvation in the long run.

Until you do whatever it takes to regain her trust & love, which your emotional adultery & abuse destroyed, you probably won't be able to save your marriage or your children's well-being & happiness from destructive divorce. For she is not obligated to love you or even stay with you unless she can trust you & feel secure in your true love & remorse for what you have done & that you won't repeat the abusive adultery again someday. Her anger & pain & wanting talk about it & know all the details & check up on you is justified & normal & to be expected for a long time, even though her method of displaying her anger & self defense (getting physical) may not be. She will have to deal with the pain & knowledge of your acts for the rest of her life.

Also the Church, in it's abuse pamphlet, tells women who are abused (like with emotional adultery) to go to their family & friends with what has happened, so she can gain comfort & kind caring attention & help her heal & get safe from additional abuse & to get their aid in helping you stop, which I realize you have done, but now you must convince her by your humility, remorse & submission to her every wish, of your eternal devotion & love, & that you want to make restitution to her & do everything she needs you to to make her happy & content for the rest of your life.

Edited June 24, 2009 by foreverafter

[ryanh]

So many people are righteously staying in difficult marriages because of religious duty & for the children's sake. Keeping our covenants is not always easy or what we want to do at the moment, but it will make all the difference for your happiness in the long run.

Until you do whatever it takes to regain her trust & love, which your emotional adultery & abuse destroyed, you probably won't be able to save your marriage or your children's well-being & happiness from destructive divorce. For she is not obligated to love you or even stay with you unless she can trust you & feel secure in your true love & remorse for what you have done & that you won't repeat the abusive adultery again someday. Her anger & pain & wanting talk about it & know all the details & check up on you is justified & normal & to be expected for a long time, even though her method of displaying her anger (getting physical) may not be. She will have to deal with the pain & knowledge of your act for the rest of her life.

I can't believe the crazy garbabe like this on here. We have a Thanks button, and a Laugh button, others have suggested other buttons such as a Cry With button. I'm voting for a Crazy Post or Vote-Off-The-Island button.

Marriages are a two way street. While IMO Redtide is in NO WAY excused, did you ever stop to think what might have pushed him after 19+ years to slip-up? And I suppose you think that Redtide won't have to live with the impacts of her physical abuse, sadism, and neglect (which sounds to have been ongoing for quite some time, not just post confession) the rest of his life??? Where is the call for her to stand up, act like she is truly trying to follow Christ and be forgiving when someone confesses their transgressions?

Why are there people on here that profess to be Christians, but are all to eager to kick someone when they are down and exposing their problems seeking help in bearing their burdens? I just can't fathom that type of selfishness.

[ryanh]

So many people are righteously staying in difficult marriages because of religious duty & for the children's sake. Keeping our covenants is not always easy or what we want to do at the moment, but it will make all the difference for your happiness & salvation in the long run.

Until you do whatever it takes to regain her trust & love, which your emotional adultery & abuse destroyed, you probably won't be able to save your marriage or your children's well-being & happiness from destructive divorce. For she is not obligated to love you or even stay with you unless she can trust you & feel secure in your true love & remorse for what you have done & that you won't repeat the abusive adultery again someday. Her anger & pain & wanting talk about it & know all the details & check up on you is justified & normal & to be expected for a long time, even though her method of displaying her anger (getting physical) may not be. She will have to deal with the pain & knowledge of your acts for the rest of her life.

Also the Church, in it's abuse pamphlet, tells women who are abused (like with emotional adultery) to go to their family & friends with what has happened, so she can gain comfort & kind caring attention & help her heal & get safe from additional abuse & to get their aid in helping you stop, which I realize you have done, but now you must convince her by your humility, remorse & submission to her every wish, of your eternal devotion & love, & that you want to make restitution to her & do everything she needs you to to make her happy & content for the rest of your life.

Great, garbage edited on top of garbage.

[redtide]

I'm not trying to drum up support for me. I'm just trying to figure out whether it's right to stay in a marriage where the other person does not truly love you (or even attracted to you).

I just got finished with a constructive chat with my wife on the phone. She started by calling me an adulterer, infidel, and such. I countered with her that if she was going to continue to discuss using pejorative names for me, that I would respond likewise with her (abuser). That caused some initial kickback, and she demanded that I not make any demands of her but ask.

Okay, I'm stubborn. So I suggested that we this be a prerequisite to our discussion tonight: No one uses any pejorative term to refer to the other spouse.

It was clear from our discussion that she wanted to continue the marriage. And she explained why she continued to challenge me on my conduct absent any indication of misconduct on my part, e.g., demanding to know whether I had contact with this other girl, after repeatedly telling her that I had stopped contact and would never have contact in the future. Seems that she had received an e-mail in which my best friend relayed a request to my wife from this other girl to relay a message to me, and that same day (or next) I shut off contact to my e-mail accounts and cell phone. Turns out this was a coincidence, but the timing was terrible.

So with that explained, my wife explained why she is insecure:

* How could a person who is emotionally attached to another just shut it off in a few days and not want to go back?

* If I could turn my love off so quickly with this other girl, then what's to stop me from instantly severing my emotional attachment to my wife and my family in the future?

I responded that it is like fool's gold. Until you see it and hold it, it looks great. Everything seems wonderful. But faced with the reality, I turned back. It wasn't immediate and complete, but I refused the final entreaty and ended up choosing my wife. The love for this other woman was fake - a lie. The love for my wife was real and complete. It's easy to never want to go back to fool's gold.

Regarding turning off love for my wife and family, I pointed out to her that I never entertained severing our relationship once I was sure my wife loved me. My desire was then to figure out how to have both (impossible). I also never considered leaving my family. So turning my love off for my wife and family never occurred, and was never seriously considered.

With that said, she became more comfortable, and she said that she began to understand the whys and to trust in my love. Things made sense, based on what she had known. She also agreed to never look back, and that if I reopened access to my accounts that she would not seek out anything before the last week. (That was the strong recommendation of everyone she has talked to, including the bishop and SP, and she admits that she was wrong to try to "find out" the nitty gritty.)

Maybe her statement about never being attracted to me was only in anger. Maybe she means that I am unattractive because of the betrayal (I could certainly see that!). But we'll know tonight. And I think that I can trust her response. For part of me, it's hard to conceive marrying someone "just because God told you to."

Edited June 24, 2009 by redtide
God, not Gold

[Gwen]

something else you might like to check out, Marriage Counseling - Free Marriage Help – Save Marriage - Stop Divorce - Marriage Problem Solving i've not seen the entire program, just the free emails that get sent out but those are something to think on. might find it helpful.

[redtide]

Also the Church, in it's abuse pamphlet, tells women who are abused (like with emotional adultery) to go to their family & friends with what has happened

This directly contradicts the advice of both the bishop and the SP. While neither prohibited her from discussing this with a confidant, both strongly advised AGAINST taking this to many people. They strongly recommended that my wife and I seek to work this out among ourselves, with counselors as necessary.

I also am not sure that I agree with your definition of emotional adultery as spousal abuse. It's a betrayal, to be sure, of the most awful kind. From the 1999 LDS magazine article on abuse:

Many experts define spouse abuse as the maltreatment of another in an attempt to control him or her. Spouse abuse may be physical, emotional, verbal, or sexual. This type of abuse behavior between parents sets the tone for the rest of the family. It has severe ramifications on children as well as spouses because it traumatizes the children and may lead them to imitate that behavior later on.

. . .

Spouse abuse involves inappropriate acts of one spouse over the other. It may involve coercive acts in which an abuser forces a person to do something that he or she normally would not do, with no particular concern for the victim. Abuse may also include the use of threats, name calling, yelling, and intimidation.

I never sought to control my wife. I didn't seek to coerce her, or make her do something she would not normally do. I have never threatened my wife. I do not call her names. (Okay, I have raised my voice at her, but it's certainly mutual, not that this makes it right.) I do not try to intimidate her. In fact, you could argue that she is abusive to me, but I am not making that argument.

I betrayed her trust. I hurt her. But despite what you suggest, I do not believe that I have ever abused her.

[ryanh]

Maybe her statement about never being attracted to me was only in anger.

Seems very likely. Here's a passage from a book about anger. Thought it might be appropriate.

Through the years, as I have counseled with hundreds of people trying to make sense of their anger, I have learned one thing. There is always something more that feeds the anger than what is observed on the surface. Angry people may appear strong, willful, or certain, but be assured that beneath the veneer are fear and loneliness and insecurity and pain. Especially, there is pain. Whether they admit it or not, angry people are hurt people, and they have somehow come to believe that they can resolve their own pain by inflicting pain upon others. Their reasoning is usually subconscious; nonetheless, each time anger is misapplied, it is a reflection of a deep wound that longs to be healed.

[redtide]

>Angry people may appear strong, willful, or certain, but be assured that beneath the veneer are fear and loneliness and insecurity and pain.

That seems to key in on my wife. She's threatened that I would leave. That's hard for me to wrap my brain around, since seems that I would be the one worried that SHE would leave. But her words to me today certainly seemed to bear that up.

In a way, that's really disturbing. No man should be able to have that kind of power over his wife. I'm not sure that I would feel that way had she cheated on me (emotionally or physically).

[ryanh]

All the books/sites advice given on how to love are great IMO. (Did I miss it, or was the 5 Love Languages and Marriagebuilders.com left out - two great ones).

Given the dynamics you two are experiencing though, I would suggest something a little 'deeper'. Passionate Marriage by David Schnarch has been very helpful for me to understand these deeper dynamics that occur in an intimate relationship. The author is not LDS, and some of the language and frank discussions of intimacy may offend some (it's not done in any sort of titillating sort of manner - just very frank) but it is a worthwhile read to anyone in the midst of the struggle that is working to make heads or tails of what is really going on. BTW, David Schnarch would argue that you are actually on the path to breaking through to greater intimacy (emotional and physical) than you have ever had before if the situation handled right. That your currently experiencing this conflict is evidence you are on the right path to growth (ie, not just remaining stagnant).

[redtide]

I'm thinking that this is my last update. I don't think that there is much anyone could offer up at this point. Yesterday, the bishop stated that it's pretty much out of his hands. He can offer mediation service, but not much more. It's between me and my spouse. If he was needed to keep things "calm," then that too. But that's no longer an issue.

So I agree.

Last night my wife and I had a long talk. In short, there are some things that she has said that she agrees are true. The biggest stumbling block is that she is not physically attracted to me, but the attraction that she has always had was spiritual, coupled with a firm knowledge that God told her to marry me. I'm not comfortable with that. Sounds like a pilgrimage to me. I married my wife because I was both physically attracted to her AND I wanted to treasure her the rest of my life.

She wants me to forget what she said, offering that it was a dark thought deep in her heart that should never have come out. But the problem is that it's a true thought, and I now know it. I had never conceived of the possibility before. She also told me that the only reason she is still with me is because of the kids, and claims the bishop told her that if she did not have kids he would counsel her to leave me.

That's though. I can understand it. But I don't see staying in a marriage just because of the kids. That's not the marriage that I wanted. Granted, I put this on myself, but . . . In short, I am going to decide to stay together for the kids. I don't want to harm them. The hopes that I had in having my bride back, and treasuring her as my love are shattered, though. I now believe that everything was a lie. I look back on fond memories of our courting and so many special moments through the years, and I find it hard to accept that the other person was doing this only because God told her to, and because she thought I was spiritually in tune and therefore worthy of her affection.

I have a pretty solid foundation for myself. I dated a ton of people before marriage, so I'm not completely sulking thinking that I'm hideous and that (other than what I did). But it's really hard to want to remain married to a woman who doesn't see you as you see her. And the fact that it has always been this way, but she just never expressed it, is hard to get past.

So. I don't see counseling as doing much to fix that, because even IF somehow a counselor convinced her that I'm attractive (not that such would be the role), then why would I want to be with a person who had to be convinced?

So, for the kids.

[foreverafter]

This directly contradicts the advice of both the bishop and the SP.

I also am not sure that I agree with your definition of emotional adultery as spousal abuse.

Despite it being the 1st responsibility of the Church to protect those who have been abused (Pres. Hinckley CR Apr. 2002), Unfortunately most Bishop's & Stake Presidents still seem to have not yet been trained in Spouse Abuse, as Pres. Hinckley said was happening throughout the Church. So it is very common for uneducated leaders to not take certain forms of abuse as seriously as needed & apply the needed consequences & thus they tend to want to keep things quiet. Abuse is something that usually must have alot of light shed on it to stop it, like any serious crime. Emotional abuse (including all forms of adultery, like porn or emotional affairs) is often not taken as seriously as physical abuse, though it is often even worse & more destructive than some physical or sexual abuse.

Abuse is much more than just controlling behavior, though that is a large part & the kind many people think of 1st. Actually, whenever a spouse chooses to do something hurtful, they know in the back of their mind that they are hurting their spouse & children & so it is intentional, even if such thoughts are surpressed. We all know when we do wrong, even at the 1st act, but we can lose the Spirit & sear our conscience & get past feeling pretty fast & rationalize & continue in our abuse if we aren't careful to repent quickly. It's a choice to keep going & put something or someone above our spouse & children's well-being & happiness. We must ask ourselves why we would choose to hurt our spouse? And it is a form of control also, to not respect our spouse's right to a happy, safe & faithful marriage.

"Spouse Abuse is wrongfully or improperly treating a wife or husband in a way that causes injury or serious offense. All members must look within their hearts & judge whether they are guilty of any practice towards their spouse that causes injury & pain or is unholy, impure, or in any way evil before the Lord."

"Preventing & Responding to Spouse Abuse", LDS Pamphlet, 1997.

Spouse abuse is anything that causes repeated or severe harm, distress or pain to the body, mind or spirit of our spouse. It is also abuse to break our covenants to our spouse in any way.

And yes, your wife may also be doing some things that are considered abusive. Spouse abuse is much more common than most people realize.

Abusers do what they do so they can receive the 'Perks of Abuse', whether that is revenge in seeing the other in pain, or getting attention or affection from another source, or getting to control the money, or freedom to do what they want or get out of their half of the care of the home & children & meals or having someone to take their problems & pain out on or having their needs be the center of attention or getting their way in decisions when they want it, or insuring that their career, education or desires come 1st, etc. etc.

But once we realize that our actions are abusive & hurtful, we can repent quite quickly if we really want to & then lovingly help our spouse repent of any abuse they might be doing. Educating ourselves on Abuse is vital to protecting our marriage & family.

Edited June 25, 2009 by foreverafter