Another celebrity death

[beefche]

I was thinking tonight about how the video "Thriller" was revolutionary. It really changed music, videos, and even TV. That video was Michael's idea and it was a huge risk at the time.

[Aesa]

Thank-you for your post pushka, I was in the same position emotionally yesterday.

I have to recognise that he wasn't found guilty of the child molestation charges against him, even tho I am one of those that remained sceptical about his innocence, but you summed it up Funky, about paying off the offender if he really was guilty...

I'm "on the fence" in terms of the supposed child-molestation, and I lean more toward it being an utmost lie -- I guess it depends on how it's defined in the US but I wouldn't say that sharing a bed constitutes it, and remember that people Michael Jackson have very big beds.

I just did a read over of the facts of the 2004 (around then?) case, and it seems that the boy's mother was perfectly fine with him seeing Jackson (he actually payed for the boys cancer treatment, etc,) and even let him go to his property when he wasn't home. It was the father, who was separated from the family, that had issues.

It'll be interesting to see if it develops further, for example with any of the people that have accused him of these acts make formal apologies -- assuming ofcourse, that they're lying.

And also, I guess it depends on how you define 'family' ... but don't most parents let their kids share a bed with them, don't children/adolescents/etc share beds with their friends? Obviously there is an age gap, but I'm trying to see it from MJ's point of view.

You have to remember he was abused in his earlier years.

Edited June 27, 2009 by Aesa

[Carl62]

There is a thread discussing it here: http://www.lds.net/forums/current-events/22936-another-celebrity-death.html

Uh, I think you're on it Dravin.

[Churchmouse]

I had thought you were kidding and figured your 'You're catching on' was a joke that was your equivalent of an apology. Though I'd love to hear what you mean by 'Imagine being called dumb by someone "kept" in Canada.'

Please explain in painful detail what you mean. I'd love to hear.

I mean what I post. Therefore, I seldom have any reason to apologize. However, I will take back anything said about Canada. Afterall, they have given us such great world leaders as.....as....??

In six years of college I took courses in United States, Oriental, British and South American history. I never even saw a course on Canadian History offered and that was at Ohio State University, the largest single campus in the country. Must not be enough to warrent a history book.

Does that answer your question.

Edited June 27, 2009 by Churchmouse

[Churchmouse]

It's getting thick now. Someone is saying he was as big as Elvis. Only time will tell. I'll see if he's making millions of dollars a year 25 years from now. Well, someone will. I'll be daisy fertilizer by then.

[Jenamarie]

I mean what I post. Therefore, I seldom have any reason to apologize. However, I will take back anything said about Canada. Afterall, they have given us such great world leaders as.....as....??

In six years of college I took courses in United States, Oriental, British and South American history. I never even saw a course on Canadian History offered and that was at Ohio State University, the largest single campus in the country. Must not be enough to warrent a history book.

Does that answer your question.

Wow.

[Just_A_Guy]

I don't know whether Jackson was guilty or innocent--I'm inclined to agree with the "where there's smoke, there's fire" view--but in response to an earlier post regarding why a parent would be satisfied just taking the money:

If the kid's going to need therapy, that therapy will have to be paid for. You can take the money when it's offered with practically no fuss; or you can go to court hoping to get restitution out of a guy whom you know can afford better lawyers than you can--and then (even if you win) try to collect while OJ Simpson is running around out there showing just how easy it is to avoid paying on a civil judgment.

Me? I'd take the money. And if I were in the family's lawyer's situation, that's probably the counsel I'd have given.

By the way, settlement or no, the family couldn't really have stopped criminal charges if the DA felt he had a case and was determined to move forward with a prosecution.

Edited June 27, 2009 by Just_A_Guy

[bytor2112]

I will take back anything said about Canada. Afterall, they have given us such great world leaders as.....as....??

Canada has produced a lot of great people and a lot of invention firsts. Check out this site

and of course my favorite Canadians:

Edited June 27, 2009 by bytor2112

[pushka]

You might be thinking of the phrase 'The Day The Music Died' A line in the song 'American Pie' written by Don McLean--The Day The Music Died is in reference to Buddy Holly, Ritchie Valens, and J.P. (Jiles Perry) Richardson, otherwise known as 'The Big Bopper'

going down in a plane crash in 1959 and killing all three of the recording artists.

Yes, I was aware of the original phrase and the circumstances surrounding it. The reported did rephrase it to be more fitting to Michael Jackson..

[pam]

In six years of college I took courses in United States, Oriental, British and South American history. I never even saw a course on Canadian History offered and that was at Ohio State University, the largest single campus in the country. Must not be enough to warrent a history book.

Does that answer your question.

Oh my heck. Isn't this a petty kind of argument? So what if we never studied the history of Canada. I didn't study the history of Ethiopia either but I'm sure they've had quite a bit of history.

It's like a kindergarten argument only it's "my country is better than your country" kind of thing.

Edited June 27, 2009 by pam
misspelling

[Vort]

I mean what I post. Therefore, I seldom have any reason to apologize. However, I will take back anything said about Canada. Afterall, they have given us such great world leaders as.....as....??

Hugh B. Brown and N. Eldon Tanner come to mind.

[Dravin]

Hugh B. Brown and N. Eldon Tanner come to mind.

John Taylor and Joseph Fielding were converted whilst living in Canada, I imagine though that such wouldn't count for Churchmouse as they were born in England. Also I imagine President Monson has some nice things to say about Canada.

Ooh, personal experience here, Elder Geoff Smith. One of the best Zone Leaders I had.

[Aesa]

Things like the Pager were invented in Canada. Gee, would be great not to have those wouldn't it?! [/sarcasm]

Canadian inventions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I hate this idea that America made itself, Australia made itself, Britain made itself, etc,. It's all untrue. Every country is as good as it is because of the contributions from people all over the world.

[Vort]

Seriously, what's the deal with shedding tears over a celebrity death? I don't get it. If you knew the person, then sure, but otherwise it's just another person dying, as a quarter of a million other people do every day. The difference is, you happened to know his/her name.

As a non-crier for celebrity deaths, I sense that it's somehow inauthentic for someone to truly mourn the passing of a person s/he didn't know and had never met. I don't necessarily disbelieve that some here shed tears over Michael Jackson's death; I just don't know what to make of such a bizarre-seeming thing.

[Seanette]

Seriously, what's the deal with shedding tears over a celebrity death? I don't get it. If you knew the person, then sure, but otherwise it's just another person dying, as a quarter of a million other people do every day. The difference is, you happened to know his/her name.

As a non-crier for celebrity deaths, I sense that it's somehow inauthentic for someone to truly mourn the passing of a person s/he didn't know and had never met. I don't necessarily disbelieve that some here shed tears over Michael Jackson's death; I just don't know what to make of such a bizarre-seeming thing.

Well said, and about how I feel. Yeah, it's sad, especially when the person was relatively young, but not all that traumatic to me. I only get really upset about deaths of people I actually had some sort of relationship with, in realspace or online friends.

I've heard there are people who've attempted suicide over Michael Jackson's death. Is it just me, or is that a MAJOR overreaction?

[FlaviusHambonius]

Seriously, what's the deal with shedding tears over a celebrity death? I don't get it. If you knew the person, then sure, but otherwise it's just another person dying, as a quarter of a million other people do every day. The difference is, you happened to know his/her name.

As a non-crier for celebrity deaths, I sense that it's somehow inauthentic for someone to truly mourn the passing of a person s/he didn't know and had never met. I don't necessarily disbelieve that some here shed tears over Michael Jackson's death; I just don't know what to make of such a bizarre-seeming thing.

Was it inauthentic for a Latter Day Saint to truly mourn the passing of Gordon B. Hinckley?

Chances are practically 99% of them didn't know him personally or had met him, but I am quite sure most members mourned over his loss in different ways--some through tears and some not.

Some probably didn't have much of an emotional reaction at all--given they're faith and beliefs in the afterlife, they just felt he was going to a much better place.

It probably wasn't just because they knew his name--but because they had an attachment or bond to him in various ways.

I'm sure it was the same for those who had a bond or attachment to Michael Jackson or whoever the celebrity might be.

As for me-- his death just made me reflect down memory road to my childhood since I was the same age as him and remember him singing and dancing as a kid and made me remember what a great childhood I had back then--and how old I am now!

They didn't call him 'Wacko Jacko' for nothing later in life due to his circumstances and personal choices--but then again I didn't have to live in his shoes.

I didn't shed any tears like many of his devout followers, but I do feel that we lost probably one of the greatest--if not greatest entertainers of our time.

The loss of John Lennon did shake me a little at the time--even though he was a terrible father to his first son Julian for the most part-- he was trying to be the best Father he could be to his second son Sean at the time of his murder--six shots with a .38 caliber pistol in the back-- in the presence of his wife.

Lennon had a very complex and lonely life as a youngster that most people don't know about--his Father left--he was raised by his Aunt Mimi and then his Mother (who he was starting to get close to again after several years) was struck by a car and killed when he was only 16 or 17.

Anyway I suppose your right, most people couldn't give a rats behind when somebody dies, unless it's family or a few friends and sometimes I even wonder about that--especially the so called friends.

[pam]

Oh FH..I just adore you. You expressed exactly my thoughts. Exactly...even using President Hinckley as an example. I agree.

[Carl62]

Was it inauthentic for a Latter Day Saint to truly mourn the passing of Gordon B. Hinckley?

Chances are practically 99% of them didn't know him personally or had met him, but I am quite sure most members mourned over his loss in different ways--some through tears and some not.

Some probably didn't have much of an emotional reaction at all--given they're faith and beliefs in the afterlife, they just felt he was going to a much better place.

It probably wasn't just because they knew his name--but because they had an attachment or bond to him in various ways.

I'm sure it was the same for those who had a bond or attachment to Michael Jackson or whoever the celebrity might be.

As for me-- his death just made me reflect down memory road to my childhood since I was the same age as him and remember him singing and dancing as a kid and made me remember what a great childhood I had back then--and how old I am now!

They didn't call him 'Wacko Jacko' for nothing later in life due to his circumstances and personal choices--but then again I didn't have to live in his shoes.

I didn't shed any tears like many of his devout followers, but I do feel that we lost probably one of the greatest--if not greatest entertainers of our time.

The loss of John Lennon did shake me a little at the time--even though he was a terrible father to his first son Julian for the most part-- he was trying to be the best Father he could be to his second son Sean at the time of his murder--six shots with a .38 caliber pistol in the back-- in the presence of his wife.

Lennon had a very complex and lonely life as a youngster that most people don't know about--his Father left--he was raised by his Aunt Mimi and then his Mother (who he was starting to get close to again after several years) was struck by a car and killed when he was only 16 or 17.

Anyway I suppose your right, most people couldn't give a rats behind when somebody dies, unless it's family or a few friends and sometimes I even wonder about that--especially the so called friends.

You hit the nail on the head, FH. Just like Pam said she cried over hearing about the death of MJ, I'm not ashamed to say I cried over the death of John Lennon. Did I ever meet him? No, but to say that he was a MAJOR influence in my musical upbringing is a big understatement. Very influential person for me musically and one who I still wonder what kind of music we could of had from him if he had lived.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Carl62

[pam]

Well I'm not ashamed to admit I shed some tears. Didn't someone say earlier on this thread that people react to things in different ways? Or even deal with things in different ways?

[Seanette]

So do several of you mean to say those of us who aren't devastated to the point of falling apart over a stranger's demise are cold, unfeeling, callous, etc.? Some (such as me) tend to be depressive and need to exercise some care with our emotions in self-defense. I can't afford to be utterly heartbroken by a stranger's passing, in the interests of my mental health.

If I were to be as shattered as some (not any poster here, talking about people on the news) make a great show of every time a well-known stranger dies, I'd be completely unable to function and meet my daily needs and obligations. (I don't think of the President of the Church as a stranger, since I'm sure he cares about my existence, even if I've never had the privilege of meeting him in person).

Edited June 28, 2009 by Seanette
minor tweaks

[pam]

I'm sad and I shed a few tears. But it's not causing me not to function in my life. I"m not THAT devastated. In fact I wouldn't even say I'm devastated. Just really sad. It's just sad that a huge part of my life is no longer. Though I can still enjoy the music that he did put out.

[FlaviusHambonius]

So do several of you mean to say those of us who aren't devastated to the point of falling apart over a stranger's demise are cold, unfeeling, callous, etc.? Some (such as me) tend to be depressive and need to exercise some care with our emotions in self-defense. I can't afford to be utterly heartbroken by a stranger's passing, in the interests of my mental health.

If I were to be as shattered as some (not any poster here, talking about people on the news) make a great show of every time a well-known stranger dies, I'd be completely unable to function and meet my daily needs and obligations. (I don't think of the President of the Church as a stranger, since I'm sure he cares about my existence, even if I've never had the privilege of meeting him in person).

Hello Seanette,

I think people react differently about grief, and I think it is a very personal thing to most people--In no way would I say-- that just because someone that has a different reaction to the greiving process than another individual should be called cold, callous, unfeeling etc. especially if that person feels he needs to keep those emotions in check for various reasons--it should be personal and private for that individual. (IMO)

Other people just tend to show their emotions more outwardly--it just comes naturally to them--it's just part of their makeup.

Most people just considered MJ as a great entertainer and will have wonderful memories--whereas for example I watched a snippit about MJ on the boob tube the other day how some in the Phillipines were reacting to his passing--many in that culture consider him a god of sorts--and said as much.

I'm sure some LDS probably didn't mourn over the passing of Pope John Paul, the same way as most Catholics did--just as I'm sure most Catholics didn't mourn over the passing of Preident Hinkley the same way as most Latter Day Saints.

I'm sure most people on both sides had admiration and respect for these men--but perhaps the mourning process was a little different for both faiths, simply because of the way they affected individual lives.

On 9/11 we were all affected with that horrific event--we mourned for the lives of the victims and to the effects that it would have on their families. We mourned for our nation.

But the fact is (IMO) that those people who had loved ones inside those buildings were profoundly more effected in a personal way.

When my Mom passed away in 1992, due to complications of open heart surgery, it happened so fast that it just seemed surreal to me-- I was very close to her, and quite frankly couldn't understand why I wasn't falling to pieces as far as the greiving process--my comfort was that she didn't suffer for long and I knew she was in a much better place with loved ones who had gone before her.

It was as time went by that it really began to hit me hard--that she wasn't there to visit or pick up a phone and talk to her-- to hear her advice and loving spirit.

I apologize for getting off of the celebrity deaths topic--just sharing some thoughts--my mind is starting to wander down memory lane again.

One last point: Seanette, your point about these celebrity's as being strangers is a good one--in reality that's true. But due to the media attention over the years and perhaps books people read on these individual lives, perhaps they really don't seem like a total stranger to some people--they sort of feel like they know them in some capacity or another and perhaps that explains the bond or attraction and thus the mourning in various degrees.

[FlaviusHambonius]

You hit the nail on the head, FH. Just like Pam said she cried over hearing about the death of MJ, I'm not ashamed to say I cried over the death of John Lennon. Did I ever meet him? No, but to say that he was a MAJOR influence in my musical upbringing is a big understatement. Very influential person for me musically and one who I still wonder what kind of music we could of had from him if he had lived.

I hear ya Carl,

'Double Fantasy' was a great album after taking a 5 year hiatus from the music biz.

Lennon said he very rarely even picked up a guitar or played the piano during those 5 years.

I think he still had some great music left in him--just look at Sir Paul--still going strong at 67 with his love for music.

I wonder if he had lived and the royalty would have given him the title 'Sir John Lennon'--if he would have accepted it or not--I think he started to mellow a little bit later on in his life and would have probably got a kick out of it--but who knows?

Maybe John and George are working on some new songs with a 'Heavenly Flair' added to them. :)

A great book to read if your a Beatles fan is called 'The Beatles' by Bob Spitz--although it's 856 pages long--it has the good, the bad, and the ugly in it.

[Seanette]

One last point: Seanette, your point about these celebrity's as being strangers is a good one--in reality that's true. But due to the media attention over the years and perhaps books people read on these individual lives, perhaps they really don't seem like a total stranger to some people--they sort of feel like they know them in some capacity or another and perhaps that explains the bond or attraction and thus the mourning in various degrees.

I don't make a life out of E!, TMZ, etc., so really don't get having my life so focused on celebrity "news" that I lose sight of the fact that these people are in fact strangers to me. For the most part, I only know about celebrities the carefully managed media facade (or the more venomous gossip I can't manage to avoid hearing/seeing). I have no clue who that person really is off-camera, in day-to-day life, or what that person is really like. That celebrity very likely has no clue I even exist, and probably wouldn't care even if he/she knew of me. Hard for me to get that emotional about someone that distant.

President Monson and his predecessors are a different matter. No, I have never met any of them in person (wish I could have that opportunity), but since they are the Lord's spokesmen, they would be aware of my needs if that were necessary, and we know they care about us (they keep telling us that, and I believe them). Someone who represents God and who does care about my existence, I can get attached to. Not that I was terribly upset when President Hinckley passed, since I knew he was going to a better world and being reunited with the wife he loved and missed, so for him it was not a sad thing to leave this life.

[Just_A_Guy]

As for me-- his death just made me reflect down memory road to my childhood since I was the same age as him and remember him singing and dancing as a kid and made me remember what a great childhood I had back then--and how old I am now!

. . . .therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.